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#1922812 - 07/05/12 12:13 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3225
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Chuck,

Thank you for the example of a piano tuned in the EBVT III! It is the epitome of what a piano should sound like tuned that way! You have done very well indeed!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1922976 - 07/05/12 12:28 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
[...] I read the private mail comment about turning off the ETD to tune unisons. The reason I did that is not so profound as it may seem. The fact is that it won't really help you! [...]


I had actually considered that thought, but I still think the lesson was profound! grin It sure got me hyper-conscious of what can make a good unison on that piano. There are so many things to watch out for, the noisy little beater! eek (Still, I think that's what makes it special, when everything lines up right. smile ) Thanks for your continued help, and thanks for that post!

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1927352 - 07/16/12 03:55 AM My Piano in EBVT III...a few new recordings....... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
On Sat, Roy Peters came down from the PTG Convention in Seattle to finish some work he had started the previous month. He worked mainly on voicing and tuned it at the end in EBVT III, using my Ipad Verituner with Bill's custom tuning figures for my M&H. Great job Roy...thanks!

I made a few recordings right after Roy finished....the hammers sound much better, but still a bit on the bright side. Some further judicious voicing will be needed in the future.

Used the same mics, a pair of Avenson STO-2, connected to the Korg...the original Korg I had was a lemon...after 3 trips to the repair shop in about 2 years, Korg came through and sent me a new one...hat's off to them for that....they really came through on this.

There has been nothing added to these recordings other than to amplify the original file in Audacity. In the Ravel and Debussy pieces, the huge envelope of sound and resonance is all from the piano itself, tuning, hammers, bass strings, etc,....nothing was added to achieve that sound. The Korg def has a better pre-amp in it than the Samson H4 tha I had been using.



EBVT III recordings using my new Korg MR-1000

1. Reflets dans L'eau Ravel This was originally an Ampico piano roll that was converted to play on the LX. https://www.box.com/s/cdcf486f37cf614b734b

2. Scarlatti 4th mov, from the LX Live-Performance series, played by Gerald Robbins https://www.box.com/s/8311e80ae9e21ddac108

3. Debussy "La Cathedrale engloutie" https://www.box.com/s/b99ebeb2f93e94e620f9

4. Debussy Arabesque https://www.box.com/s/1979d68b781305d23e0a



I have not posted much at all from the Yamaha E-Competition series. They play really well on the LX.... Yamaha has 3 grades of midi that you can download for free. I use the high-resolution files for the LX. For fun, I added 2 lower keys for the Debussy....interesting..... the recordings below were recorded the next day. I also did a small change to the piano for the 3 Debussy pieces below and the Albeniz ...I am curious if you can you hear any difference from the recordings above? Enjoy...the best is with headphones. smile


http://www.piano-e-competition.com/midi_2006.asp#D


1. Debussy "Pour les arpeges composees" from Douze Etudes (Original Key) https://www.box.com/s/7e05fc34393fbfb5f2ac

2. Debussy "Pour les arpeges composees" from Douze Etudes--(Half Step Lower) https://www.box.com/s/049100a7df2f36f8e234

3. Debussy "Pour les arpeges composees" from Douze Etudes-- (Whole Step Lower) https://www.box.com/s/74bfddde2421907cda5b

4. Albeniz--Rondena from Iberia-- https://www.box.com/s/a67b7ac8c623f43979bd






1. Rachmaninoff 1 in EBVT III from the Newport Music Festival https://www.box.com/s/4da8a4fa9d935fdc3d47

2. Rachmaninoff 2 in EBVT III from the Newport Music Festival https://www.box.com/s/2905b28a8946a2fe97bf


Edited by Grandpianoman (07/16/12 09:52 AM)
Edit Reason: added recording

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#1941738 - 08/13/12 01:32 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III...a few new recordings....... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Bill put his characteristic shine on the Lester this weekend, and I want to share these with you.

First, here is a new Pipe Organ Effect recording, made immediately after Bill's fresh tuning. It is recorded with my little Tascam DP-004 digital recorder, with the built in condensor mics:

https://www.box.com/s/9c0a52bff90108bb66d2

Second, here is another recording. This is a "student piece," published in 1915, a piano adaptation of the song, "Ah, 'Tis a Dream" by Eduard Lassen (1830-1904), a Belgian composer of Danish descent. This piece was adapted and edited by Leopold Godowski.

It is noted in the lesson, "As the musical phrase is repeated at the beginning of each new verse with no change in the actual notes, the student must attempt to introduce variety by novel ideas of interpretation. The last four measures form a kind of postlude or little after-phrase, which possesses the same contemplative character as the song proper." The song itself is comprised of three stanzas. Lyrics are included in the score to help the student see the melody and shape the interpretation.

The lyrics say:

My native land again once meets my eye,
The old oaks raise their boughs on high,
The violets greeting seem:
Ah! 'tis a dream!

I feel the kiss that was in youth so dear,
The words "I love" fall on my ear;
I see the eyes soft beam:
Ah! 'tis a dream!

And now, when far in distant lands I roam,
My heart will wander to my home;
But while these fancies team,
Ah! 'tis a dream!

Eduard Lassen--"Ah, 'Tis A Dream," (Godowski, adpt.)

This is the raw recording with no sound enhancements made with 2 Sony ECM 220 Electret Condensor mics plugged into a Yamaha Audiogram USB input device plugged into Cubase AI4 recording software (same old story).

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1941814 - 08/13/12 07:42 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III...a few new recordings....... [Re: Cinnamonbear]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 394
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
Beautiful sound and beautiful playing. Thanks Andy!

Forrest
_________________________
-------------------
current studies:
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
Bach 848, 866
Schumann Op. 15

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#1949526 - 08/26/12 07:05 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III...a few new recordings....... [Re: woodog]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Thank you, Forrest! smile

Here are a few more new recordings of that tuning. At the beginning of the month, I had asked Bill to tune the Lester, because I was submitting Steve Chandler's piece, "Consolation," to the Un-sung Heroes E-cital. I've made no secret about how pleased I have always been with the way Bill tunes my little piano, but this time, he outdid himself, in my humble and appreciative opinion. Here is "Consolation," to which I did apply some standard recording industry settings, as I understand them: a touch of reverb, some light compression, some light limiting, etc. It was recorded August 12 when the tuning was brand new.

"Consolation" by Steve Chandler in Db maj.

I recorded this one today, a gentle praise hymn based on Psalm 121, published in 1994 by Robert Stromberg called, "He's Ever Over Me," collected in the 1996 Covenant Hymnal.

"He's Ever Over Me" by Robert Stromberg in Bb maj.

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1949540 - 08/26/12 07:47 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III...a few new recordings....... [Re: Grandpianoman]
chuck belknap Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 36
Loc: Oklahoma
Cinnamonbear:

Just listened to Consolation, and have two comments:

1:Great feel and movement to the playing

2. You had a real master tuner to make that Lester sound that good. I have tuned several of them, and they are tough to make
sound that good, esp. in the bass. That was Craftsman work.

Charles Belknap

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#1949703 - 08/27/12 08:47 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III...a few new recordings....... [Re: Cinnamonbear]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 632
Loc: shirley, MA
Andy,

Your playing is lovely as always...

I hear the Db Consolation having, even as freshly tuned, an unsettled edge, while the Bb even in a slightly aged tuning sets the ear at ease.

Is this how your ear hears the difference in the tonal qualities in this tuning, or is your experience of them different than I describe?

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#1949725 - 08/27/12 09:53 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III...a few new recordings....... [Re: jim ialeggio]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
[...] I hear the Db Consolation having, even as freshly tuned, an unsettled edge, while the Bb even in a slightly aged tuning sets the ear at ease.

Is this how your ear hears the difference in the tonal qualities in this tuning, or is your experience of them different than I describe? [...]


Something like that, Jim. Yes. "Consolation," as a composition in such a dark key, with its gentle melody and complex harmonies (and exquisite and profound dissonances), holds grief and comfort in suspension. It is a scene of two characters: the comforter and the sufferer. It has a definite arms-enfolding, hair-stroking, tear-wiping quality of the one character along with a poignant, pervasive, unfocused pain of the other character, and, I think, a sense of immediacy to it all. In other words, the hurt is fresh, and the comforting has just begun. I like the way Steve carries the hurt away at the end of the composition, but with that edge, as you say, we see the hurt leaving, and know something deep about what has just transpired.

"He's Ever Over Me" is like a warm, fluffy blanket by comparison. smile It is quite striking to hear the difference in mood of these two quiet pieces in close juxtaposition, isn't it?

Thanks for sharing your impressions, Jim. The tuning always strikes me on a visceral level, but also, always with a purpose, it seems.

Chuck, thank you, also, for your comments. I agree--Bill's tuning is very artful and artistic.

--Andy


Edited by Cinnamonbear (08/27/12 10:11 AM)
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1950441 - 08/28/12 02:45 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III...a few new recordings....... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Andy,

Enjoyed both files....thanks for posting them!

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#1987524 - 11/16/12 03:50 PM A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
This may be a bit early...:) Here is a video from my Iphone 4 using the Tascam IM2 add-on mic. It was originally recorded by Liberace on a piano roll sometime in the late 70's early 80's. Later, some Ampico coding was added to give it a bit more expression. This is an LX scan from the Ampico roll, and played here on the LX. I recorded this about 6 months ago using Bill's custom EBVT III for my piano. smile I also used the Edwards string cover.


"White Christmas Medley" composed and played by Liberace, on the LX. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VVRy30RcTo&feature=plcp

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#1987575 - 11/16/12 06:15 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
GP, this might be slightly OT but something struck me about this video: When looking at the keys go down I can see what looks like it needs more than two hands to play the notes. For example, there are bass notes being physically held down while there is a spread of upper notes that span more than one hand. This is not possible if the roll is a representation of the pianist on his own? I am not an expert in piano rolls so maybe this is a silly question.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1987618 - 11/16/12 08:55 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Chris...not silly at all, it's a good question!

Adding extra notes........This was one of the techniques the reproducing piano roll makers used to have the effect of a more complex and bigger sounding piece. There are many rolls out there that do not use this technique, but a lot that do, this being one of them.

All of the reproducing piano rolls ever produced were never able to capture 100% of what the pianist played, so in essence, they are not a true representation of the pianist, only a true representation for the reproducing player pianos. The 88 note rolls, which are very different from the reproducing rolls, have no expression other than loud and soft.

The most common reproducing rolls were the Ampico, Duo-Art, and Welte. A very popular 88 note roll was made by QRS.

On the other hand, the files made specifically for the LX, are a true 100% representation of the pianist.

This Liberace file was scanned from an Ampico roll. Liberace recorded this on a 88 note recording piano sometime in the late 70's, then some years later someone added the Ampico coding, which then gave it some expression. It was then scanned for the LX system.


Edited by Grandpianoman (11/16/12 09:00 PM)
Edit Reason: added content

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#1987631 - 11/16/12 09:23 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
I wonder about the reproducing roll made by the great pianists during early 20th century playing classics. Was there ever much doctoring of those rolls?
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1987634 - 11/16/12 09:51 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21529
Loc: Oakland
Everything on a reproducing roll was punched in according to markings on a roll. Dynamics were added according to notes made while the piece was played. Wrong notes were changed. Everything could be and was manipulated.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1987653 - 11/16/12 11:20 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
As the pianist played, a machine recorded in lines, the notes. After editing and approval, the rolls were punched. There was manipulation, and it was usually done in collaboration with the pianist, especially the great classical pianists. However, the length of the notes and the rhythms were not usually changed unless there was a mistake, or the pianist asked for a change. The Welte was another matter. An example, Rachmaninoff was reportedly paid $1,000 for every Ampico roll he made. He would listen to the final roll after the editors were finished, then have the editors make changes to, and/or add in some dynamics and expression to his liking, he would then give the ok to produce the roll. That was all they could do with the technology of their day.

An excellent website that goes into great detail and explains the inner most workings of the reproducing pianos, with some excellent mp3 recordings: http://www.pianola.org/reproducing/reproducing.cfm


Edited by Grandpianoman (11/16/12 11:24 PM)
Edit Reason: added content

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#1987693 - 11/17/12 01:58 AM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
I have always been interested in knowing how much doctoring there was ever since some recording I had during the 60's. Sometimes I can make comparisons with audio recordings of same the pianist and composition sometimes and the comparisons seem to be quite variable. It is disheartening to know that doctoring went much beyond that of patching up mistakes. There is often the essence of an artist's style in these reproductions which can come across indicating that much of the original nuances were captured and not interfered with too much at times.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1988114 - 11/18/12 11:00 AM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Chris, you are correct, there is the 'essence' of the artists in many reproducing piano rolls. The mp3's on the pianola website are an excellent example. http://www.pianola.org/reproducing/reproducing.cfm

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#1988133 - 11/18/12 11:43 AM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2375
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
This is a good video on the whole mechanical process for piano rolls. Taken at the old QRS factory in Buffalo NY, no longer in operation unfortunately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3FTaGwfXPM
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1988201 - 11/18/12 03:21 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Emmery]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Yes, that is a good example.

Here is the original Ampico perforator back in working order! smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkLDLYMw3qg&feature=plcp

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#1988220 - 11/18/12 04:19 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Just to add.....With the advent of computers etc, it is now possible to produce perfect, and in many cases, corrected original Ampico rolls. This company is one good example of what is possible nowadays, compared to the old cutting machines and technology of the 1920's.

http://www.precisionmusicrolls.com/technology.html

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#1993404 - 12/01/12 09:28 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Where is Bill Bremmer?
I havn't seen him post around here since last August.
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#2000997 - 12/18/12 03:40 AM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Well, Bill just tuned the Lester, again. As usual, it has a lovely shine to it. Thanks, Bill!

Before Bill tuned it, I *attempted* to tune it, and, as part of that attempt, also voiced the hammers. I needled the snot out of the them, and also used Jerry Groot's trick of using a wire brush on them. (I used my own trick of using a thimble to protect my finger from the voicing needle, too--a thimble on the finger steadying the hammer underneath the poke. Saved me some grief, for sure!) Needling and brushing really improved the sound. Thanks, Jer, for the wire brush trick!

So here, for your Christmas listening pleasure, is an arrangement of "Mary Had A Baby," (yes, she did!) as found in the Hal Leonard publication Christmas Solos For Piano: 60 Seasonal Favorites. Sadly, as is often the case in Hal Leonard publications, the arranger is not credited. I payed scurpulous attention to compositional details this time... Hope you like it.

Mary Had A Baby

--Andy Strong
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2001123 - 12/18/12 11:40 AM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 394
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
Andy,

Oh my. What beauty! (Here I was going to let my thoughts flow about the voicing, the pedaling, the SPACE and connection with the instrument the exquisite tuning... but I'll leave it with beauty, and JOY).

so nice.

Thank you!

Forrest

p.s. I have you on the big screen. :-)
_________________________
-------------------
current studies:
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
Bach 848, 866
Schumann Op. 15

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#2001130 - 12/18/12 11:51 AM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 394
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
And, since this is a tuner, technician forum... Did you notice the absence of noise from that instrument, especially the dampers?

Well done! Well done!

Forrest
_________________________
-------------------
current studies:
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
Bach 848, 866
Schumann Op. 15

Top
#2001161 - 12/18/12 12:52 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Tribbs]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2375
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Where is Bill Bremmer?
I havn't seen him post around here since last August.


Shhhh...its been fairly quiet and civil around here, lets keep it that way.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2001169 - 12/18/12 01:15 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: woodog]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Thanks, Forrest! laugh Yes, the piano is behaving very nicely! I did have to bend one rogue damper into place (F2) and it still misbehaves somewhat, but the dampers really have settled in nicely. I also replaced the felt under the fall strip and also on the lip of the fall board, and that quieted down everything even more! Plus, I think the piano likes the winter when the climate inside the house gets steady!

I wish there was something I could do to improve the sound of the wound tri-chords in the tenor section, but I'm not at all sure what to do. If anyone has any ideas, I'm open to suggestions. I do notice quite a few, uh, irregularities, in that part of the piano. Some of it looks like this:

Click to reveal..


Anyway, here's one more. This is a Phillip Keveren arrangement of Vince Guaraldi's "Christmas Time Is Here" that I did last night when the world around me was quiet.

Christmas Time Is Here

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2001401 - 12/18/12 09:15 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Cinnamonbear]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 632
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
I wish there was something I could do to improve the sound of the wound tri-chords in the tenor section, but I'm not at all sure what to do. If anyone has any ideas, I'm open to suggestions. I do notice quite a few, uh, irregularities, in that part of the piano.


Andy,

When you get a chance measure the speaking length of those trichords, let me know the note for each, core diameter, and overall wrap diameter (both of these with a caliper).

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2001496 - 12/19/12 12:44 AM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: jim ialeggio]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
I wish there was something I could do to improve the sound of the wound tri-chords in the tenor section, but I'm not at all sure what to do. If anyone has any ideas, I'm open to suggestions. I do notice quite a few, uh, irregularities, in that part of the piano.


Andy,

When you get a chance measure the speaking length of those trichords, let me know the note for each, core diameter, and overall wrap diameter (both of these with a caliper).

Jim Ialeggio


Cool, Jim! Will do! Thanks!
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2002232 - 12/20/12 03:35 PM Re: A bit of Christmas........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Enjoyed both recordings Andy!...very nice playing as well. Happy Holidays!

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by kobethuy
09/21/14 02:50 PM
Advice on Hammer purchase.
by plns
09/21/14 01:37 PM
Light Hammers- Computer Analysis of 3 Grand Piano Actions
by chernobieff
09/21/14 01:12 PM
Kawai AT-120 47" From 1995?
by johnntran123
09/21/14 01:11 PM
Marche Funèbre d'une Marionette
by Minnesota Marty
09/21/14 10:09 AM
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