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Your post was personal as it was in response to another specific person's post.

I'd guess quite a few are offended by your posts since you are an industry professional who quite regularly insults and talk down to other industry professionals. There is no other industry professional at PW who does this anywhere near as much as you. It's even more egregious because of your young age. You don't seem to understand why this is inappropriate and unprofessional.

Every time I've objected to the tone of your posts it was because I saw a young and relatively inexperienced industry professional insulting another industry professional. It's the same idea as when one goes to dealer and they start insulting other dealers or other makes they don't carry.

Well Schlaigs, are you now totally confused?

When it comes down to the final product of a total rebuild, there will be as many opinions as there are about the new instruments of various manufacturers. As I stated earlier in this thread, get as much info about rebuilders and rebuilding as you can get. You seem to be doing that and I commend you. Remember, what is written here is opinion and cannot be considered as "gospel."

You asked about whether a quality rebuild was due to the parts or the craftsmanship. It is both. Craftsmanship, often to the point of artistry, will demand the selection of the finest "parts" available to suit the individual instrument. If it can't be purchased, it will be hand-crafted by the rebuilder. There are only a relative few who work at this level. And yes, there are costs involved when selecting artisans of this level.

You also asked about the variation in the S&S-A throughout its history. Though they all use "A" as a designation, they are quite different in their design and construction. All are fine pianos and have their individual characteristics. The A-III is a major design change and the length increased to 6'4" from the previous versions at 6'0". To decide which you prefer, you must play the instruments. I also have a preference for the A-III.

I agree that a trip to Cantabile would be a good idea. Luis Cabal did the bellywork in my 1921-M and it is superb. If you can also get to Country Piano, you would have a totally different experience in the way they approach rebuilding. Taking a train to Philadelphia to see the rebuilding/restoration shop at Cunningham's is worth the trip.

Just keep asking questions!

I did see a few grands fitted with Ciresa boards, they have a warm but light tone, when compared with STrunz boards, the wood is not the same , so I would not consider them for a Steinway without expecting tone change.

I have seen lately a very old fitted in USA with a new board.
The job was well done, but I did not find totally the Steinway "signature" particularly the treble sounded a little ordinary, without the Steinway personality.

That said, it was a hundred time preferable to this customer to have that old piano with anew board and new pinblock, than buying a 1886 one which is generally prone to have limited dynamics and a thin tone (long, but thin, even if it may be rich enough).

The cost was not really high, in fact, which was the reason why nothing had been done in the action out of mounting new hammers and shanks.

SO is that piano yet a Steinway ? probably only half, but what count is that the customer is pleased, it allow them to have a decent instrument, simply a little fragile and uneven, and that will be corrected later.

The strings are not Roslau, may be why they have a little lemon sounding treble, that needed to be voiced down, smoothed, rounded, if power where kept the tone would be too harsh in my opinion.

There is a profound difference between attacking the person and criticizing an idea or statement. I have no ill will towards that Steinway rep, but I do think what he posted was self-serving and disingenuous, and I'm well within my right to say so. I am resolutely unapologetic.

Now, if you go look at his posting history, you'll see that 10 of 11 total posts he's made were specifically about Steinway. The last four were exactly the same... him directing readers to that ridiculous buyer's guide. Two other posts were linked to his own dealership. No substance. None.



Actually, I get quite a few PMs expressing approval of what I post, and some in the past have even encouraged me to not take you too seriously.



I think bringing my age into this is irrelevant, inappropriate, and offensive. Furthermore, I stand behind my training and experience. Yesterday, I spent two hours under a Yamaha C7 reinstalling a Dampp-Chaser system that was very, very incorrectly installed by a longtime PTG technician. Experience is what you can do and how well you can do it, not how long you've been doing it. As for me insulting other technicians??? I disagree, sometimes strongly, with people from time to time, and yes, things get heated occasionally, but I regard most people highly.

On a final note, my patience with you is really wearing thing. You've made your point. I've made mine. It's done. Over. Finished. Stop annoying me, and more importantly, stop wasting my time. If you can't resist obsessing over my posts, do it with someone else. Now, back to the topic, hopefully without further interruption...

If you think there's any significant difference between calling someone's posts self serving and disingenuous and calling the person that you are wrong.


That doesn't change or disprove change what I wrote.

My guess is that if you apply to become a PTG member you may have difficulty based on your attitude towards other professionals expressed on PW. There is no industry member at PW who so consistently talks down to and insults other industry professionals. Your age is probably part of the cause of the problem. Your attitude is a big turnoff, and I assure you it's not just me that feels that way. You come across as incredibly arrogant.
My last comment to you on this thread.

Greetings,


Greetings,
The whole point of the website( which is a shill site if there ever was one), is to make the case that only the factory parts will make the piano a Steinway, even though parts today are often not like parts of yesterday,when the brand made their name. There are hammer makers today making hammers far more like a 1930 Steinway hammer than the Steinway factory is selling, so I would always advise customers to ask "what price tradition?". There are also aftermarket action parts that outperform others, so for a given piano, simply having factory parts screwed in may or may not create the optimum piano response. The factory would like you to think so, but it is not true.
I see no evidence that the factory parts are more accurate, durable, or effective than at least three other suppliers I have used over the years, and numerous instances in which they were less. The center pinning is an area of critical concern, as is stability of the shanks, (why do they wander so much?). No other brand of parts requires as much papering to travel, nor as much repinning to make function as designed. I can't find the evidence that the modern factory parts are the most stable, consistent or appropriate parts for rebuilding their own pianos. It seems that their main reasoning for choosing their parts is that they cost more.
I believe that there is, today, a choice between tradition and performance, and that you cannot have the maximum of both. My customers tend to be professionals, and tradition means virtually nothing to them when there is a higher level of response available with non-factory parts. And there usually is.
Regards,

A well deserved for Mr. Foote!

OK - I'm going to defend the posting of Casey Dan. The OP is trying to understand the often confusing maze of piano rebuilding and Mr. Saliba offered the opinion of the manufacturer. Nothing was hidden and all of the information was clearly stated as Steinway. It is up to the reader to assess its merits and draw his own conclusions.

Whether you agree, or disagree with the premise of S&S is your opinion. You are free to state your opinion, agreement or otherwise. To simply trash the info, or the posting, does disservice to both Casey Dan and to Schlaigs.

Sorry if I inadvertently kicked off a dispute but I want to say how grateful I am to all of you for the generous response, guidance and advice. I just signed up for PW and am very appreciative of the readiness to help. Elsewhere on PW I saw several mentions, all very positive, of a rebuilder in the Baltimore area (Dave Hughes) and went to his website. It looks like he does fantastic stuff; not sure I can afford it. Went to a local rebuilder who said doesn't replace soundboards himself; sends them to Beethoven in NYC. Are there strings I should request? Or do I just find a great rebuilder, sample their work, and then trust their judgment. Also - is it feasible to pick a piano, then have it rebuilt? Can you know from the old instrument how it will sound when it's done? I'm leary of that - plus, I'm not pianist - just a little self-taught with a goal to learn. Thanks, all

Congratulations - you have identified one of the most respected rebuilders in the country. Dave is considered to be in the highest level of those in the business.

Generally, one would own a specific instrument which will be rebuilt based on various reasons. I would not recommend purchasing a "core" piano to begin the process. You would be better off purchasing a completed instrument from the rebuilder of your choice, after you are satisfied with that particular instrument. If you come across a vintage S&S-M for $500, it would be a different story. A "core" Steinway is generally in the $6K-$8K range.

You are well on your way in your quest!

It definitely wasn't your fault, so no need for apologies! If you stick around enough, you will see plenty of disputes. It's unfortunate, but when you get a bunch of people who are all passionate about the same thing in one room, it's inevitable. In this case, I should have gone on to explain my stance (aside from pointing out that blatant self-promotion), as it would have been more useful.

I think Steinway's restoration philosophy is unwise for several reasons:

1. There is no way in heck their restoration department could satisfy the demand for rebuilt instruments, so it's not like they're losing anything.

2. The old, beat up ones are not going to go anywhere, and it does no good for Steinway to have them lying around. Every time someone comes across a beat up Steinway, that is a missed up opportunity for the company.... a well restored Steinway, even one not restored by the manufacturer, does more good for them than a carcass does. They should be glad that there are other craftsmen who deem their instruments worthy of restoration, as there are hundreds of other names that don't have this honor.

3. Their assertion that no one but Steinway has the knowledge and expertise to restore their instrument is, frankly, off-putting and insulting, not to mention untrue. Many of the skills regular non-rebuilding technicians have overlap with piano building, and the actual building part is not rocket science. Rather than alienating these independent technicians, Steinway should be courting them. They need us more than we need them. Their exclusive attitude is very bad for the piano industry and the music making industry. It's very sad, really. Many other builders acknowledge the skills of their competitors!

4. Steinways, while they are high-performance instruments, are still factory-built instruments; there are well over half a million of them. It's hard to argue that their pianos are so rare that they must always have Steinway parts to be considered authentic. My Saab is still going to be a Saab if I put a non-OEM muffler on it.

5. I'd just like to point out that Steinway sure doesn't complain about all the actions, hammers, and pin blocks that they sell (for a lot of money) to rebuilders.... just a thought.




I know the name. He's written a fair amount of technical articles for the PTG Journal. Definitely reputable.




Generally, it's best to trust their judgement. You don't want to make someone use products that they're not used to using. Find a great rebuilder that works for you and you'll be fine.




Yes it's possible, but probably not the best choice for most people. A really good rebuilder should be able to redo a piano with certain touch and tone goals in mind.

My issue is not necessarily the content (which I do disagree with), but his continued use of the forums to promote an agenda, which he has a financial interest in. All of his posts are Steinway related... the last four all direct readers to that same link, and two others direct readers to his dealer's website. That's.... 6 of 12 total posts. If he's willing to contribute something other than propaganda, then I'm all ears.

In the midst of all this controversy, here is something that might be interesting for Casey Dan to address: Hamburg Steinway, until recently, did not use any of the action parts that New York Steinway produced....they chose to have Renner make them for them. Additionally, for many years they used Bavarian Spruce for their soundboards while New York was using Sitka. Also, one used Beech, the other Maple in their rim construction. Many top artists, when given a choice, will choose a Hamburg over a New York. Simple question.....which is the REAL Steinway, Mr. Saliba?

Does Hamburg no longer use Renner parts? Also - if a re-builder uses Renner parts, does that mean they would be identical to the Renner action used by Steinway; or does S&S have specific specs for Renner that can only be used by S&S?

Hamburg and New York have begun to collaborate on Hamburg using New York parts. I am not certain, at this time, whether it is ALL the New York made parts or just hammers. The Renner actions they used were supposedly made to their specs, which, I assume, would have to be the same specs as the after market Renner parts for those pianos. If they changed the specs they would be, in essence, changing the geometry, if one defines "specs" as the distance of one pivot point to the next, position of jack to knuckle and the dimensions/size of the parts. My point in bringing all this up is simply to question the Steinway rep's assertion that, unless the rebuild uses all "Steinway" parts, and is done by Steinway employed technicians, it is not a "true" Steinway......when my comparisons between New York and Hamburg Steinways clearly show that there is no such thing as a "true" Steinway.

Although I certainly don't think the Steinway rep's article is valid, I don't think it's for this reason but for the reasons Ed Foote mentioned. I'd guess the Steinway rep would just say there are two kinds of Steinways and either one of those would be "true" Steinways using his thinking.

In the end, any argument he makes has little validity, since the point is to get a piano that the owner loves, cherishes and enjoys playing. Whomever accomplishes that goal with their end product has fulfilled the piano's, and piano owner's, intent, and if that can be done for far less money than a "true Steinway" would cost, then all the better.

Another reason to use Steinway parts is to help develop a strong, positive relationship with the company. It is a relationship that goes beyond just ordering parts and spills over into positive relationships with dealers and other piano professionals. Much of a technician's success can be attributed to fostering these relationships.

I'm sure that's true. But in my experience I did once have a S&S tech come out to look at my console and work on it and in my estimation my regular RPT who has worked on it did a superior job. Nothing against S&S. I recommended my RPT to a friend who was searching for a re-built Steinway and she also commended him; he helped evaluate an O for her, which she eventually purchased. BTW, he speaks highly of Schimmel; any experience or thoughts?

All Renner parts, and slightly different than the aftermarket parts. As for many factories, the parts produced can be specific, but for Steinways thT are all the parts while for other brands mostly the hammers are produced specificly.