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#2001293 - 12/18/12 05:33 PM VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos
Aeons Holle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 55
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
This one seems to be a VST at least worth keeping an eye on:
VI Labs homepage

We had a thread on this one in February 2012, when it still had a way to go in development:
Old True Keys thread on PW

However, apparently there are more demos on the True Keys site now than at the beginning of the year, with all three pianos being featured.

And it seems like the release is pretty imminent - suggested by a Beta tester here, saying it might "become available in a few days", and stirring up some hype:
Thread on Music Player Forum

Also on the VI Labs Facebook page there is a post from December 1st stating that they have "gone into full scale production now", with a photo of numerous flash drives being replicated.

The main interesting thing to me right now is the different mic positions that can be mixed with each other as well.
As we recently had a discussion on here about mic position being the achilles heel of sampled VST pianos, I'm currently hoping this sample library might actually get around this problem.
Maybe in a recording scenario one could use the player position for playing; then after recording, switch to the other mic positions.

Now, although I have piled up quite a lot of piano libraries in recent months, I must say I am quite intrigued at the moment.
Especially the demo of the player position of the True Keys American Grand piqued my interest, as it seems more full-bodied on single notes than my current favourite VST, the Synthogy American D.

So, what are your thoughts on it?
Am I just falling prey to hype and demos (again laugh )?
_________________________
Kawai CA95
VI Labs True Keys: Pianos
Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D, Italian Grand, Grand Pianos
Galaxy Vintage D, The Giant

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#2002793 - 12/21/12 06:00 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
jarosujo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 237
Loc: Slovakia
Not a big fun of VST but Italian grand by Jordan Rudess is amazing.
_________________________
Yamaha NP-V80 (sold)
Yamaha DGX640 (sold)
Kawai CL-36
Pianoteq Standard + Intel NUC DC3217BY + Sennheiser HD598 + Fostex PM0.4n + NI Audio 2

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#2002799 - 12/21/12 06:23 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Demos do sound good. I'd probably give it a whirl.

Edit: just saw me commenting in the original thread, being underwhelmed. I don't remember it, but guess they've come a long way since.


Edited by Gigantoad (12/21/12 06:27 PM)

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#2002839 - 12/21/12 08:04 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: jarosujo]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: jarosujo
Not a big fun of VST but Italian grand by Jordan Rudess is amazing.


I think you mean Italian Grand in the Ivory family by Synthogy. Jordan Rudess is just the celebrity who endorses it.

It's ok (I played the previous version but have listened to the current version a lot). I personally have a hard time with the sound of these Faziolis. They go for ultimate clarity, but the result is very penetrating and sterile. I don't like it.

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#2002849 - 12/21/12 08:51 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: gvfarns]
jarosujo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 237
Loc: Slovakia
Originally Posted By: gvfarns


I think you mean Italian Grand in the Ivory family by Synthogy. Jordan Rudess is just the celebrity who endorses it.


I mean demo at VI Labs home page http://vilabsaudio.com/
The first one named Grand Illusion by Jordan Rudess - Italian grand
That sounds really fantastic.
_________________________
Yamaha NP-V80 (sold)
Yamaha DGX640 (sold)
Kawai CL-36
Pianoteq Standard + Intel NUC DC3217BY + Sennheiser HD598 + Fostex PM0.4n + NI Audio 2

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#2002869 - 12/21/12 10:01 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Oops. Gotcha.

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#2002973 - 12/22/12 06:51 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2405
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Just listened to some of the demos. I'm quite impressed. The three pianos offer a decent variety. All they need now is the wonderful clarity and punch of a good Yamaha and you'd have all the bases covered I think. The only thing I don't like so much is the annoying pedal swooshing sounds on many of the demos but I assume you can adjust that.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2002981 - 12/22/12 07:21 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Yeah, pedal noises are annoying. I don't know why anyone would think they add realism. If the sample was at least somewhat randomized, but it's always the exact same.

Luckily, this can be disabled.

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#2003120 - 12/22/12 02:28 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Aeons Holle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 55
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
I found another thread with some information:
Gearslutz thread

Assuming this is legit, the street price is going to be $349.99 for the 3 piano bundle.
Also, the German Grand is supposed to be sampled from a Bechstein, the American Grand from a Steinway (as expected) and the Italian Grand from a Fazioli (no surprise either).

And I agree with you guys, I would disable the pedal noises as well, just as I do with Ivory.
_________________________
Kawai CA95
VI Labs True Keys: Pianos
Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D, Italian Grand, Grand Pianos
Galaxy Vintage D, The Giant

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#2005795 - 12/28/12 09:45 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Bane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 91
Loc: USA
Has anyone found out a release date yet? I can't seem to find one.
_________________________
www.soundcloud.com/btrailblazer

Cable-Nelson upright piano, Casio WK-200, Mackie MR5MK2 monitors, Cubase Artist 7, Steinberg's The Grand 3, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 interface, Asus R500a-RS52 Windows 8, i5-3230M 2.6 gHz, 6GB RAM, 750GB HD (5400RPM)

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#2006794 - 12/30/12 10:40 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Bane]
VILabs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 44
First of all, we'd like to thank everyone for the interest in our new product. We think you'll all enjoy it quite a bit.

Bane, True Keys will start shipping to dealers around the world this week. We'll start listing locations where True Keys can be purchased on our website a little later this week.


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#2006818 - 12/30/12 11:55 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9333
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
VILabs, will you be exhibiting at NAMM in January?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2006841 - 12/31/12 01:48 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Unfortunate name selection with True Pianos out there.

Guaranteed to be some confusion between the two in discussions here and there.

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#2006862 - 12/31/12 03:36 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
floydthebarber71 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 178
Loc: South Africa
Their Italian grand sounds really great. Not so much of a fan of the other pianos. I'm currently looking around for my first VST, and Synthogy's American D might be preferred for me since it's purchased as stand-alone (and sounds damn good, of course).
_________________________
Zaahir

Self-taught renegade - Kawai CL-36

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#2006932 - 12/31/12 08:53 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Kawai James]
VILabs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 44
We won't have an official presence at NAMM, but we will all be there. I believe you'll be able to see/hear True Keys at the MOTU booth as it uses the UVI engine and opens in Mach Five as well as the UVI Workstation.

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#2006970 - 12/31/12 10:17 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Aeons Holle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 55
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Thanks for the update, VILabs.
_________________________
Kawai CA95
VI Labs True Keys: Pianos
Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D, Italian Grand, Grand Pianos
Galaxy Vintage D, The Giant

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#2007204 - 12/31/12 08:27 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 612
I look forward to your pianos. But it's a tough market out there now with the Vintage D and the Ivory American Concert D which are both great pianos, and sold as individual instruments. If your pianos only come packaged together you may have a tough sell.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2007223 - 12/31/12 08:54 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Macy]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Macy
If your pianos only come packaged together you may have a tough sell.


I agree. There is not a lot of interest in packaged pianos. The typical user only uses one of them, and feels that being required to purchase the other ones is a waste.

Single pianos is the way to go!
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#2007237 - 12/31/12 09:22 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Agreed. Most of us will buy more than one piano anyway, but on our own terms and it will be the piano we are interested in.

On the other hand both Galaxy and Ivory became household names (on this forum, haha) with a suite of pianos. That may be a better approach from a marketing and brand recognition perspective.


Edited by gvfarns (12/31/12 09:23 PM)

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#2007247 - 12/31/12 09:32 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: gvfarns]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: gvfarns

On the other hand both Galaxy and Ivory became household names (on this forum, haha) with a suite of pianos. That may be a better approach from a marketing and brand recognition perspective.


However, the last two instruments from Galaxy - Vintage D and The Giant, have not been part of a suite.
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#2007275 - 12/31/12 11:29 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Melodialworks Music]
VILabs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 44
Thank you for your feedback. We actually thought about this issue quite a bit. In fact, many of our beta testers said the same thing in terms of only probably using one piano and that we should price them individually.

However, over the course of several weeks almost all of our beta testers found themselves using all three pianos for different types of songs.

Many beta testers that had previously favored other industry standards such as Ivory or the Galaxy products found they didn't like going back to them after using True Keys for a short amount of time.

As we looked at the economics of the library we realized we could essentially give our users three distinctively different voiced pianos with three independently controlled stereo microphone perspectives for the price of two if we released it on one library.

If you find yourself listening to a demo and thinking you didn't like the particular sound.....keep in mind that you can always switch between the Close, Player and Side position or find a mix between them that suits you.

If you look on the first post on this thread it looks like Aeons Holle references a thread one of our beta testers made on the Music Player forum. For unbiased reaction from someone outside our company using True Keys in day to day session work it's probably worth a read:
Music Players Forum

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#2007296 - 01/01/13 01:11 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
VI Labs,

Many people prefer buying plug-ins individually. Over time some might change their minds and use all three in this package. However, a percentage of people will not invest in that possibility.

How do you feel about offering three different pianos priced individually and a bundled price of 3 for the price of 2?

This would be the best of both worlds.

A smaller number of people will buy 3 for the price of 2 than 1 for the price of 1.

For those who would buy the bundle, whatever price you are currently committed to will be available. For those who would never buy all three and would only choose one, a slightly higher price would still be better than the bundle price considering they would outlay more money and probably receive at least one piano they would not use.

The smallest group in the mix consists of those who would buy the bundle because there is no alternative. You will have the bundle group regardless because they are interested in the three. What you gain is the individual piano group and at a slightly higher price.

All I can see is more potential by offering these pianos individually at one rate and bundled at another rate.

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#2007307 - 01/01/13 02:05 AM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
I think that's basically what Galaxy does, isn't it? At least you used to be able to buy the suite or the individual pianos, with the bundle being cheaper than the three individual pianos. I can't seem to find a link to this now so maybe they have discontinued it.

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#2007689 - 01/01/13 09:25 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1891
Loc: Pennsylvania
I was just listening to the demos on the True Piano site and it occurred to me that it would be great if we could download a MIDI version of each of those demos and run them through our own sound generator (dp or vst) and see what we hear.

Do you think that would be a valid way to decide if it really is as good as it sounds on their site ?

And, if so, could we talk them into providing that for us ?

Am I dreaming ?
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2007722 - 01/01/13 11:14 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: dmd]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 612
Originally Posted By: dmd
I was just listening to the demos on the True Piano site and it occurred to me that it would be great if we could download a MIDI version of each of those demos and run them through our own sound generator (dp or vst) and see what we hear.


I learned long ago that demos on websites are completely worthless when it comes to playing pianos live. They can easily be doctored and don't reveal live playability issues. I bought my first software pianos based on demos, and they were the worst pianos I ever bought. I bought the rest of my pianos based on user comments from websites like this. Overall, those comments have been accurate once you sort out the biases of few commenters. You can easily tell when comments come from shills.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2007725 - 01/01/13 11:28 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: dmd]
VILabs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 44
Originally Posted By: dmd
I was just listening to the demos on the True Piano site and it occurred to me that it would be great if we could download a MIDI version of each of those demos and run them through our own sound generator (dp or vst) and see what we hear.

Do you think that would be a valid way to decide if it really is as good as it sounds on their site ?

And, if so, could we talk them into providing that for us ?

Am I dreaming ?


I agree with Macy below. I think it's important to use real world feedback to make your own conclusions. For what it's worth, the demos on our site come directly from True Keys with no outside processing other than the built-in convolution reverb from the engine.


Edited by VILabs (06/30/13 04:55 PM)

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#2008117 - 01/02/13 05:34 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Bane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 91
Loc: USA
I think o0ampy0o has a good point. Many of the songwriters out there are dissatisfied with thier current sampled pianos, but have a tight budget. I think you could better address the needs of your potential customers if you made both the package deal and the individual pianos available. Of course this would take some time, but would likely be beneficial financially.
_________________________
www.soundcloud.com/btrailblazer

Cable-Nelson upright piano, Casio WK-200, Mackie MR5MK2 monitors, Cubase Artist 7, Steinberg's The Grand 3, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 interface, Asus R500a-RS52 Windows 8, i5-3230M 2.6 gHz, 6GB RAM, 750GB HD (5400RPM)

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#2019150 - 01/22/13 04:14 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
VILabs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 44
I think I've personally spoken with many people on this site over the last few weeks with questions via e-mail, but I wanted to let everyone know that we're officially shipping True Keys now.

We're working on adding dealers around the US and the rest of the world, but you can also order online direct from our webstore for quick shipping. I look forward to hearing all the feedback from everyone.

If you're interested in buying just head over to www.vilabsaudio.com.

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#2019262 - 01/22/13 07:29 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 612
It's too expensive to become a Guinea Pig. It should have been $175 for individual pianos. Do you have a money back guarantee deal?
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2019298 - 01/22/13 08:47 PM Re: VI Labs - True Keys: Pianos [Re: Aeons Holle]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3835
Loc: North Carolina
I agree, Macy. It's too much to ask me to pay $350 for three pianos. I did that with Ivory 1.5 years ago. I won't do it again.

If I were in the market for these pianos, I'd likely buy one of them. (Maybe two, slight chance.) Definitely not three.

As it stands, you can buy three. Or you can buy none. It's a shame.

The iLok is a killer here, too. The Pianoteq guys get by just fine without one. Why can't the True guys?

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