Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#2002203 - 12/20/12 02:13 PM Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally
Toni Goldener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 100
Loc: Switzerland
Hello
Can anyone of you tuners give me some tutorial of how to tune Berhard Stoppers temperament aurally? Is there a recording of the thmperament avaliable, e.g. How sounds the octave, how the fifth and the duodecime? What are the checks, to know if I am on the right way or not? And how sounds this "beat masking effect"?
Many questions!! Thanks for all the tips and help

Toni
_________________________
Toni Goldener
Klavierservice Luzern
(Piano Service Lucerne)
Phone: +41 77 420 55 65

Top
(ad PTG 568) Win a Year Journal Subscription
PTG 57th Annual Convention - Atlanta
#2002208 - 12/20/12 02:35 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
UnrightTooner Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4906
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Toni:

You will probably need to contact Mr. Stopper directly. It is a bit of a mystery... tuning pure twelfths is a different matter.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2002211 - 12/20/12 02:49 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: UnrightTooner]
Toni Goldener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 100
Loc: Switzerland
Already tried!! Need more help thank you!
_________________________
Toni Goldener
Klavierservice Luzern
(Piano Service Lucerne)
Phone: +41 77 420 55 65

Top
#2002224 - 12/20/12 03:20 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1056
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I found a PTG article at http://www.piano-stopper.de/dl/PTG2008_StopperTemperament.pdf and am reading it now. I will let you know what I think after.
Pure 12ths is not a "temperament" technique per se, it is a technique for tuning the treble (and can be used for bass as well) that produces consistent octaves. That I can help you with. I've tuned pure 12ths (pure duodecimes?) for many years, but now prefer tempered 12ths as a compromise for pure triple octaves and better sounding double octaves.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2002229 - 12/20/12 03:33 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2302
Loc: Portland, Oregon
This might help, at least as far as hearing what it sounds like...a few years ago, I recorded my grand piano using Mr. Stoppers software, I posted these and a few more files in a posting comparing ETD's. Here are a couple of the recordings. The piano is a 1927 M&H 7ft Grand with the LX playback system. I tuned it using Mr. Stoppers software.

The Age of Innocence played on the LX by B.Pezzone https://www.box.com/shared/s4huo9y1pm

Oh Danny Boy (jazz version) played by E.Reed on the LX. https://www.box.com/s/degdfasivzvwkh3q5xza



I found a classical recording I made that I never posted here before, using the Stopper tuning.

Earl Wild playing Brahms on the LX. https://www.box.com/s/mikdttqniq8051wp48fa


Edited by Grandpianoman (12/20/12 04:55 PM)
Edit Reason: correction

Top
#2002230 - 12/20/12 03:34 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1056
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
So far, the article seems to be selling some software, and a tool to play 12ths with one hand.

The first step in the temperament seems to be to tune a pure 12th with the software. Not needed. To tune a pure 12th, say F3C5, use the check note a M6 below F3 (Ab2). Ab2 does not need to be in tune, just creating audible beats with F3 and C5.
Make Ab2F3 = Ab2C5 (M6 = M17). This is by definition, a pure 3:1 12th. (Beats will be heard at C5, partial 3 of F3, and partial 1 of C5)

Also, if you play Ab2F3C5 together, all at once, the beats will produce a beat like this:
wah-Wah-WAh-WAH-WAh-Wah-wah-Wah-WAh-WAH-WAh-Wah-wah...
where the capitals indicate loudness.
So a non pure 12th will produce a beating or phasing of the beat. When you hear a solid beat (at C5, no phasing or slow pulsation of the beat) while playing Ab2F3C5, then you have a pure 12th.

Also note, if all your M6s from F3 to B4 are steady and evenly increasing, and you use this technique to tune the 12ths above, then all your M17s will be smooth and increasing. Pretty cool, huh?


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (12/20/12 03:36 PM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2002239 - 12/20/12 03:46 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
It's a shame Mr Stopper is so protective over his tuning sequence. It would be nice to know what the 'cancelling effects' are that he refers to in the brief section on aural temperament tuning. The implication is there is some alignment of beats within the temperament so that they cancel. I'd like to know what is actually involved.
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

Top
#2002256 - 12/20/12 04:24 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Grandpianoman]
dancarney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 144
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
This might help, at least as far as hearing what it sounds like...a few years ago, I recorded my grand piano using Mr. Stoppers software, I posted these and a few more files in a posting comparing ETD's. Here are a couple of the recordings. The piano is a 1927 M&H 7ft Grand with the LX playback system. I tuned it using Mr. Stoppers software.

The Age of Innocence played on the LX by B.Pezzone https://www.box.com/shared/s4huo9y1pm

Oh Danny Boy (jazz version) played by E.Reed on the LX. https://www.box.com/s/degdfasivzvwkh3q5xza



I found a classical recording I made that I never posted here before, using the Stopper tuning.

Earl Wild playing Chopin on the LX. https://www.box.com/s/mikdttqniq8051wp48fa


Brahms?
_________________________
BMus(Hons) DipABRSM
Piano Technician

Top
#2002257 - 12/20/12 04:25 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1056
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Well, the only "cancelling" I can think of may be in the octave itself. When an octave is tuned just right, IMHO, (beatless, as the old-timers say), it is possible to imagine the beats at the different co-incidental partials cancelling each other out. The accepted size (PTG RPT) for the mid-range is between a 4:2 and a 6:3. This means the octave will beat as a:

very wide 2:1
wide 4:2
narrow 6:3, and a
very narrow 8:4

and the "beatless" size is, as one can imagine, the size where the 2:1 beat cancels the 8:4, and the 4:2 beat cancels the 6:3.

When I teach octave sizes in my course, I go through all the theory with check notes, etc, then I say, "just tune the octave beatless, listen to the treble, and try to get rid of all that noise.". Nine times out of ten, when we check, the students have tuned a clean octave (beatless?) that is between a 4:2 and a 6:3.

The pure 12th technique produces octave sizes that are not only between a 4:2 and a 6:3, but at the same spot within that window for all the octaves.

I learned this from Dave Renaud, who learned it from Jack Stebbins, and I was told that this is the standard that the PTG is using to tune the treble on the master tuning of exam pianos.

Using this technique, I was able to get 98% on the treble for my first RPT attempt. The graph actually followed the changes in the string diameters.

As for cancelling the beats of the thirds or sixths in the temperament, I don't believe that is possible. (Unless maybe the inside/outside M3/M6 could produce beat cancellation if played at the same time. i.e. F3G3B3D4.)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2002272 - 12/20/12 04:56 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: dancarney]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2302
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Right you are! smile I was looking at some E. Wild Chopin I had also recorded. Thanks for the correction.

Top
#2002308 - 12/20/12 06:00 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Phil D]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 405
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: Phil D
It's a shame Mr Stopper is so protective over his tuning sequence. It would be nice to know what the 'cancelling effects' are that he refers to in the brief section on aural temperament tuning. The implication is there is some alignment of beats within the temperament so that they cancel. I'd like to know what is actually involved.


Hear, hear! I second these thoughts exactly.
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

Top
#2002427 - 12/21/12 12:31 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I am by far no expert on the Stopper tuning, but I have heard his tuning at a presentation he gave. The cancelling effect that struck me was the following:
the octave (eg: A3 - A4) sounded clean and pure, both the fifth and fourth (A3 - E4 and E4 - A4) sounded proper, with the slow roll. But when all three notes were play together, the beats were cancelled out and the sustain had a smooth, clean sound, almost reminiscent of a pipe organ. It was really something. I think this effect has to be experienced, otherwise all talk is speculation.

A lot has been written on his tuning on this forum, Stopper himself made many posts a few years ago. It's all in the archives....
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

Top
#2002457 - 12/21/12 02:51 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Supply]
Toni Goldener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 100
Loc: Switzerland
Thank you all for your information and help. I have already tried to tune the Stopper temperament aurally. I asked Bernhard how to do, he told me to do the doudecime aurally pure and then go on as usual.... But no further help and tests. I askes another german tuner, but... no answer.

Grandpianoman: thanks for the recordings, sound very nice, I have found them already on my way through the archives. Do you also have a recording of the temperament tuned with Bernhards software? Would be nice to clearly hear only the temperament, and all the intervals.
Mark: thanks for your detailed infromation and the test for the doudecime. I read the file again you added ( I knew it before) and unfortunately there is no description of the way through the temperament.

I can't imagine that there is no instructional sheet out there of that tuning. The software is too expensive to buy without really knowing that it is worth it. But I am really interrested in this tuning!

Can't you send me a Christmas present, Bernhard? wink and to all the others who are interested in your tuning? wink wink

Toni



Edited by Toni Goldener (12/21/12 02:53 AM)
_________________________
Toni Goldener
Klavierservice Luzern
(Piano Service Lucerne)
Phone: +41 77 420 55 65

Top
#2002507 - 12/21/12 08:01 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
UnrightTooner Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4906
Loc: Bradford County, PA
All:

I think Mr. Stopper hears things in a way others do not. He has been adamant that his tuning is NOT pure 3:1 twelfths.

As far as beat cancelation in general, any time three notes are played and the beating of two intervals equal each other, there will be beat cancelation. In the case of 3:1 twelfths (NOT as Mr. Stopper's says he tunes) this would include a stacked fifth and octave. The same thing happens with a stacked 4th and 5th with a 4:2 octave.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2002508 - 12/21/12 08:02 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
UnrightTooner Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4906
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Toni:

I have tried many times to use a sequence that uses multiple 12ths along with octaves, 4ths and 5ths within them. I always end up with 5ths that are too pure and a M3 that is too slow compared to its neighbors when tuning the 9th note of the scale.

What I have come up with is a sequence that fits within one pure 3:1 twelfth:

A4 to fork
D3 to A4
D4 to D3, check D4-A4
A3 to A4, check D3-A3, check A3-D4
E4 to A3, check E4-A4
G3 to D4, check D3-G3, check G3-E4 (first RBI check)
E3 to E4, check E3-A3
G4 to G3, check D4-G4

You now have an octave tuned for each of the 4 ladders for tuning sets of contiguous major thirds, if you are so inclined. Since I do not believe that CM3s are appropriate across or near a break I do not use them. Instead, from E3 I tune up by fifths and down by octaves always staying within the first pure twelfth that was tuned: D3-A4. The checks are similar to the checks in Dr. White's sequence only with more of them.

_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2002562 - 12/21/12 10:02 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1056
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

As far as beat cancelation in general, any time three notes are played and the beating of two intervals equal each other, there will be beat cancelation. In the case of 3:1 twelfths (NOT as Mr. Stopper's says he tunes) this would include a stacked fifth and octave. The same thing happens with a stacked 4th and 5th with a 4:2 octave.


That is NOT correct. Yes, whenever three notes are played, there are two beat rates created, but they will never cancel out unless the two waves are exactly the same frequency and OUT OF PHASE! I.e. With identical frequencies, you can have constructive interference (waves are in phase and beat is louder), or destructive interference. (Waves are out of phase and beat is cancelled.)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2002587 - 12/21/12 10:38 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
UnrightTooner Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4906
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mark:

You have a point. Cancellation is not the best term to use. I think you know what is being talked about. Do you have a better term? In other words do you have something constructive to say?

Another way to put it would be the difference frequency of the beats is zero.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2002588 - 12/21/12 10:40 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
erichlof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 367
Hi all,

To me the Stopper tuning masks Major 10ths (1 octave + Major 3rd) and Major 17ths (2 octaves + Major 3rd). Normally when I hear a classical recording of a piano tuned in 'conventional' ET, I can spot the 10ths/17ths right away inside the large Major harmonies being played (C-E in a C Major chord). These beats will sometimes fight against the slightly fainter, but still noticeable Major 6ths inside the same Major chord (G-E). Once you have tuned a fair amount of pianos, you cannot 'un-hear' this 10th and 17th beating in listening to piano music (which can be a good or bad thing - ha). That's how I can immediately tell if the piano is in tune, other than the obvious unisons of course. And usually on a classical recording, so much care has been placed in the tuning, that you can hear the precisely placed beat-rates all over the place.

Not so with the Stopper tuning. Take another listen to the Earl Wild recording (thanks Grandpianoman). Whenever there is a Major harmony, the 10th's/17th's should stick out like sore thumbs (at least they do to me), but here, even though the same amount of tuning care and precision is applied, I cannot hear the 10ths/17ths and 6ths so well. They are hidden in the mix, or muffled, or masked.

This is what gives the tuning a 'still' or pure quality. This in contrast to conventional ET where there is a lot more activity going on in the beat-rate department. smile


Edited by erichlof (12/21/12 10:43 AM)

Top
#2002601 - 12/21/12 11:01 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1056
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
You have a point. Cancellation is not the best term to use. I think you know what is being talked about. Do you have a better term? In other words do you have something constructive to say?


No pun intended, right?

I thought I was being constructive by helping to clarify the terminology.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Another way to put it would be the difference frequency of the beats is zero.


If the difference is zero, you can still have constructive or destructive interference.

To be fair and honest, your post was clear and everyone should have inferred that you meant out-of-phase destructive interference. However, the situation can occur where the beats add up, so I thought I should mention it.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2002674 - 12/21/12 01:31 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2302
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Toni, you're welcome.

Unfortunately, I don't have a recording of just his temperament.

Going back through my box.net archives, I found these...since I tuned and recorded all of these back in 2009/10, my tuning has improved, so please forgive some of the unisons. smile


Stopper Tuning-1927 M&H 7ft RBB Grand played on the LX system.

Earl Wild playing the Liszt Ballade No 2 in B minor on the LX, Stopper Tunic OnlyPure Tuning--Corrected in Audacity.mp3 https://www.box.com/shared/qo5nskakfs ( caveat: I remember Mr. Stopper was ok with this recording, except for some of the unisons. Also, that is a pretty bombastic piece...when it was done, my tuning was not where I left it. Stability has improved since then.)

E. Reed Jazz 2 Stopper tuning https://www.box.com/s/3mtx82cdnnmk3zoe4f2q (first time posting)

E. Reed Jazz 1 Stopper tuning https://www.box.com/s/ev1m6cw9234l2vcgtxcj (first time posting)









Edited by Grandpianoman (12/21/12 01:50 PM)
Edit Reason: added content

Top
#2002696 - 12/21/12 02:04 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
When an octave is tuned just right, IMHO, (beatless, as the old-timers say),... This means the octave will beat as a:

very wide 2:1
wide 4:2
narrow 6:3, and a
very narrow 8:4


Mark, as much as I understand a wide 4:2 octave is not a beatless octave, but the pure 4:2 octave is a beatless octave?
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2002705 - 12/21/12 02:21 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
UnrightTooner Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4906
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
.....

To be fair and honest, your post was clear and everyone should have inferred that you meant out-of-phase destructive interference. However, the situation can occur where the beats add up, so I thought I should mention it.


... "where the beats add up" ...

They can "add up" in two different ways. When they have the same frequency and are in phase, they can "add up" in amplitude, be louder. Also when they have the same frequency the additive frequency "adds up" to double the beat, exactly double, while the subtractive frequency "adds up" to zero. This is the basis of the "masking effect" (a better term than "cancellation") that is observed when intervals have the same beat rate. This can even happen when only two notes are played, but different sets of partials line up. It can be very obvious with bass strings where the beating of different octave types can be heard at the same time. It sounds smoother (the beating is masked) when the two most prominent beats, beat at the same rate. This may also be why a compromise between 4:2 and 6:3 octaves are popular.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2002709 - 12/21/12 02:32 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Mark Davis]
UnrightTooner Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4906
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
When an octave is tuned just right, IMHO, (beatless, as the old-timers say),... This means the octave will beat as a:

very wide 2:1
wide 4:2
narrow 6:3, and a
very narrow 8:4


Mark, as much as I understand a wide 4:2 octave is not a beatless octave, but the pure 4:2 octave is a beatless octave?



An interesting thing happens when an octave is tuned where the 6:3 partial match beats narrow at the same speed as the 4:2 octave beats wide. The 2:1 partial match, being at half the frequency of the 4:2 partial match but twice as wide in cents, also beats at the same speed. So then there are three different partial matches all beating at the same speed. This is true even in the presence of inharmonicity. So this could be the smoothest place to tune a particular octave.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2002714 - 12/21/12 02:38 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Rick Baldassin, in his book on pitch, basically shows that a double octave in the F5 - F7 area made up of two 2:1+ octaves will result in a slightly narrow to pure double octave and or a wide double octave.

So my guess is that a double octave made up of a wide 4:2 octave and wide 2:1 octave would produce a wide 4:1 double octave which is obviously not beatless.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2002715 - 12/21/12 02:43 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
When I tune M3<M17 (4:1+) my double octave is wide and beating. If I tune my M3=M17 (4:1) my double octave is beatless.


Edited by Mark Davis (12/21/12 02:48 PM)
Edit Reason: another correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2002855 - 12/21/12 09:26 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1056
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis


Mark, as much as I understand a wide 4:2 octave is not a beatless octave, but the pure 4:2 octave is a beatless octave?



A 4:2 octave may be beatless at the 4:2 partial, and the 2:1 may then cancel out the 6:3, but the 8:4 beating will be heard.

It needs to be repeated that, if one was to tune an octave to sound as clean and clear as possible, concentrating on eliminating the higher partial noise, and then analyse its size, one would find the octave to be a wide 4:2 and a narrow 6:3. Try it. It "sounds" beatless but we know that there are beats at all the partials. Why and how does it "sound" beatless? Cancelling is the only explanation I can come up with. But an explanation is not really needed, only the experience of hearing it and analysing it and coming to that conclusion, re:size and quality.

I will post a video if anyone is interested.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (12/21/12 09:27 PM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2002861 - 12/21/12 09:41 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1056
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
When I tune M3<M17 (4:1+) my double octave is wide and beating. If I tune my M3=M17 (4:1) my double octave is beatless.


Hi Mark,

Yes, that is right. The M3=M17 test is that for a pure 4:1 double octave.

Maybe your M3<M17 difference is too big.

Try this:
Tune M3<M10<M17<M6
So that the M10 and the M17 fit into the M3M6 window. Note the M3<M6 window is just the test for a wide P4.

Note also that this produces a tempered 12th. You can also tune
M3<M10<M17=M6
which produces a pure 12th

Cheers,
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2002943 - 12/22/12 04:26 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis


Mark, as much as I understand a wide 4:2 octave is not a beatless octave, but the pure 4:2 octave is a beatless octave?



A 4:2 octave may be beatless at the 4:2 partial, and the 2:1 may then cancel out the 6:3, but the 8:4 beating will be heard.

It needs to be repeated that, if one was to tune an octave to sound as clean and clear as possible, concentrating on eliminating the higher partial noise, and then analyse its size, one would find the octave to be a wide 4:2 and a narrow 6:3. Try it. It "sounds" beatless but we know that there are beats at all the partials. Why and how does it "sound" beatless? Cancelling is the only explanation I can come up with. But an explanation is not really needed, only the experience of hearing it and analysing it and coming to that conclusion, re:size and quality.

I will post a video if anyone is interested.


The following is by Bill Bremmer,

Please see new thread Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves


Edited by Mark Davis (12/22/12 04:43 AM)
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2003002 - 12/22/12 08:38 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1056
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
If you focus your hearing on the 4:2 partial only, or the 6:3 partial only, of course you will hear a beat. Read the part about the "whole octave sound" by Virgil Smith. Only when you are listening to the whole octave sound, as musicians do, that you can sense the "beatless" quality of a well tuned octave. You are on the right track. Keep searching, keep reaching.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2003176 - 12/22/12 05:06 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Hi all,

I would call the masking effect of OnlyPure tuning a beat suppression. The beats are there, but at a noticeably lower level than in other tunings I've heard.

Bernhard does not really tune pure 3:1's. During the seminar (PTG K.C., 2011) he only used the spanner tool in setting the very first 12th, and then for a few troublesome intervals later on.

He finishes all unisons of a string first, then moves on to place one string of the next note in an optimal spot in relationship to the previously tuned open unison, and - very interesting - he often throws in a third note (previously tuned, open unison) for kind of a "second opinion".


Edited by pppat (12/22/12 05:08 PM)
Edit Reason: grammar
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
> Robin Spielberg Playing in Maine! <
-------------------
75,000 Members and Growing!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
143 registered (ajames, AndresD, Almaviva, anotherscott, 39 invisible), 1809 Guests and 23 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75479 Members
42 Forums
156060 Topics
2291599 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Remembering what to play
by kipale
9 minutes 50 seconds ago
Time to change teacher?
by AndresD
Today at 09:34 AM
Adjusting Sound During Restringing
by BillJZ
Today at 09:05 AM
My fingers know what my brain has forgotten
by PatrickBl
Yesterday at 08:30 PM
Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos
by Paul678
Yesterday at 08:12 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission