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Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words, while perfect in their own way, take ternary form as the structure, rather like Clementi's rondos. They are a theme, an expansion of it and a restatement of it. Some of them have little introductions and codas, eg. op. 30 no. 3. But they do not test the emotions with dissonance nor stray far from the beaten path.
They are the musical equivalent of a sandwich. Nutritious and perfectly made, but not adventurous fare, harmonically, lyrically, or structurally.
This helps, as I would otherwise have a very tough time in labeling this. So, will just present some findings and request direction on what to call it. If it is a sandwich, I see a few ingredients (perhaps a turkey bacon club) but will otherwise spare you the analogy.
M1-M4 phrase (call it phrase A) M5-M8 phrase (call it phrase B)
M9-M14 this is playing with and expanding on phrase B
Then M15-M18 is restating (albeit differently) phrase A
That is as far as I will go for now to try and get terminology corrected. Also, this is one clear larger section up to this point and is a good resting place. The theme and phrases within it, are defined above (I believe anyway,) and then further expanded on in the next half (or so.)
I also have all the chords figured out up to M18. This was not as easy as I thought it would be. And pretty sure, you may not be so keen on all my selections. Should I post these? It is mainly for my own understanding and we haven't looked at chords it awhile, so not sure if interested. Happy to otherwise though.
This is a new kind of music for me for analyzing so what follows is mostly subjective. Btw, it coincides with what Greener just wrote (the restatement in m. 15).
There is a main theme or subject or (name?) going from m. 1 - 2, half a phrase I guess. This occurs two more times: m. 15 - 16, and m. 25 - 26. I think it's a significant part of the piece. There is also a prominent rhythm that we first encounter in m. 1 that I hear as "dah deeda da da" and versions of this also shape the music.
I hear a kind of main call-answer, where this main theme is the "call", and you might have "call-answer", or "call-answer-answer-answer". Sometimes there may be a secondary kind of call and answer, but the ones that really stick out are the places where that theme pops up.
Main sections for me for now: M. 1 - 8 feel "final" at the end of m. 8. M. 9 - 14 feels like a second phrase which is responding to the first part, but it's independent. The final chord both concludes that section, and leads on to the next. M. 15 - 24 tentatively as the next section, starting with that theme. M. 25 again has that theme, and could have ended on m. 28, but m. 29 - 33 make the end much more interesting with what he does harmonically.
I get everything your saying KS, almost. The only big difference I see is that you did not see any significance, or closure at m18, where I did.
Going to go ahead with some chords now; I used the commas to try and indicate which of the four beats.
No need to go over this unless you really want to. I'm posting mainly to help me get documented and help figure out what is going on with modulation. Starting from C Major, I believe we are moving through G Major, C Major, F Major and back to C Major.
M1-4 Phrase 1 (2+2) in C M5-8 Phrase 2 in G M9-14 Phrase 3 holding at 12 on A Major, then 13 G major, and 14 a rootless F7b9 (A dim 7) closing with M14-18 Phrase 1 with a modified ending
M19-28 = M14-18 with extras in the accompaniment
M29-33 = coda
This is shorter than most of these SWW's but the treatment is very similar. I've just read them all up to Op. 67 and all the ones without repeat bars follow a similar pattern though with obvious differences in scale.
I can't help loving these wonderful melodies but I do yearn for something a bit diferent now and then.
Your chords, Jeff, look really painful.
If you look around a little you'll see the bass agrees with the notes that follow rather than the ones being being played with it. This is Mendelssohn's version of the melodic appoggiatura.
Look at M7 mid point. If you drop the F# in RH and use the following E you have a simple C# dim. Or at the end of M4 the BDF over the C bass just resolves to a straight C.
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I've been quiet recently. I have now submitted my recital recording. The final (chosen) take shows the frustration I've been having hooking my old piano up to a modern PC. I'm without a right channel on my audio out and don't know whether it's the soundcard, the piano or the cable.
I can't monitor the recording on the PC while it's recording I have to get to the end and listen afterwards to see whether a mistake was noticeable or not by which time you think it probably was and have lost heart in the take anyway.
The song (another without words but not Mendelssohn) lost it's beauty after playing it over twenty times a day for two days (and that after the two weeks of practise preparing for the recording anyway).
Recording is normally a stressful business ("If I don't get it right this time...") but when you're unfamiliar with the equipment ("If it doesn't record right this time...") no amount of practise will help. I think I've overplayed it - no wrong notes but no beautiful phrasing and the climax sounds angry!
I may leave it a couple of days now that I think I have the set-up in a workable state and try again before the deadline using my 'magic number' to change it. Shifting a PC to a temporary table far from a network cable's reach and without a comfortable area for keyboard and mouse is not something I want to get used to more than four times a year! It's effectively a day without a PC plus an excuse for my wife to mention dusting! Ah, me.
... M9-14 Phrase 3 holding at 12 on A Major, then 13 G major, and 14 a rootless F7b9 (A dim 7) closing with ...
Your chords, Jeff, look really painful.
I have been told before, that I am a sucker for punishment;
OK, I see the F7b9 now in M14 and like this. I wanted to call the Adim7 an F#dim7 instead as I thought this would be in better alignment with diminished naming F#,A,C,Eb/A vs. A,C,Eb,F#, but happy F7b9. As suggested, I will see about simplifying others. It is not a tough piece to play, but was tough trying to label everything.
Originally Posted by zrtf90
I have now submitted my recital recording. The final (chosen) take shows the frustration I've been having hooking my old piano up to a modern PC.
Recording is normally a stressful business ... I may leave it a couple of days now that I think I have the set-up in a workable state and try again before the deadline using my 'magic number' to change it. ... It's effectively a day without a PC plus an excuse for my wife to mention dusting! Ah, me.
This is exciting. Glad to see you will be in this recital, Richard. I went and had a listen to the piece you will be submitting ... a very lovely piece and nice choice.
Sorry, to hear of the frustration you're encountering with the recording set up. I'm going to side with your wife on this one though, and suggest it is time to start dusting
Richard - off topic - recording. My DP "remembers" playing, but I can't bring it into the computer. I catch it on my iPod and then e-mail it to myself. Then I drag it into GoldWave and resave it as an mp3. I used to stick a microphone close to the piano which brought it directly into GoldWave. If I had to do several takes, I just isolated the take that I wanted to keep. This may be totally unhelpful.
Richard - off topic - recording. My DP "remembers" playing, but I can't bring it into the computer. I catch it on my iPod and then e-mail it to myself. Then I drag it into GoldWave and resave it as an mp3. I used to stick a microphone close to the piano which brought it directly into GoldWave. If I had to do several takes, I just isolated the take that I wanted to keep. This may be totally unhelpful.
Not unhelpful! It's a comfort to know others have problems. I have an eight track recording studio on tape and plenty of casssette recorders but they're older than the piano (32 years vs 23 years) and I wanted to avoid tape hiss. My cables mostly end in phono or 1/4" jacks. My sound card uses mini jacks. I have a best option of three cables joined together to get from phono out on the piano to mini stereo in on the computer.
The submission was designed to highlight these kinds of issues as I've committed to the RST Mendelssohn recital. It's served its purpose! I have new cables on order.
As I listen to the performance of this work, below, I notice the definite disparity of tempo throughout. Some noticeable slow downs and speed ups. It would not be possible, for example, to line up a metronome beat with this performance.
"espressivo" is not denoted in the score as it was in the Chopin, prelude. But, is very evident in this performance. Also, I think it is very effective in strengthening the dramatic and emotional appeal.
So, just wanted to ask for opinions of this. If I were to try to perform this with an even rhythm/tempo throughout, I believe it would lack the dramatic and emotional appeal that this performance achieves.
I understand (and quite like BTW) the concept that the composer's work is done and that the performers work has yet to be done. Furthermore, I've always been inclined to play things my way. But, I am now trying to tighten up and apply a more disciplined/reasonable approach to expression.
I guess my question, thus, is: How far should I / could I go with timing variance in a production like this one?
I went and had a listen to the piece you will be submitting...
I've updated it since. I think it's a better job. How did you hear it?
Originally Posted by Greener
I'm going to side with your wife on this one though, and suggest it is time to start dusting
Done and, er, dusted! But thanks for you support
Mendelssohn, Op. 102/6 We haven't seen much use of dotted rhythm in Clementi and where we did, it was the predominant rhythm in two of the gentle middle movements.
Now we're seeing it thrown in the middle of otherwise square crotchet/quaver themes where it adds a lilting and lyrical touch. Every phrase makes use of it. It's preponderant in the phrases throughout the six books.
In the baroque the music was played in reams of quavers and semiquavers because the instruments didn't have much sustain (compare guitar music with that of the mandolin). In classical music the rhythm was broken up more squarely adding quavers in among the crotchets. Now, in the Romantic period, we're seeing yet more diversity in the rhythm (going dotty, if you will ).
It would be worth experimenting with how much to lean on the dotted notes and what effect it has on the melody in the different places it's used. Sometimes it's used to break two similar chords, e.g. M5, and other times to add to the appogiatura effect, e.g. M4. What other uses does he make of it?
Originally Posted by Greener
How far should I / could I go with timing variance in a production like this one?
The rule is simple. You get the piece to a point where you CAN play it in time and then you play it with the timing you WANT. It's about you being in control and not letting technical difficulties dictate the tempo.
If you want to stretch the definition of rubato by all means slow it down where you want to and bring out the piquant effect but don't just cover a technical difficulty.
I don't agree with this 'play it the way the composer intended' malarkey because the composers were playing to be listened to as much as saying something and they were obviously saying it in a way that was fashionable at the time. So play it now in a way that suits our preferred way of listening. My two ha'p'orth - add salt to taste!
I went and had a listen to the piece you will be submitting...
I've updated it since. I think it's a better job. How did you hear it?
I have not heard your performance, Richard, although I am very much looking forward to it. I just searched the work on Google, as I was not familiar with the name, and had a listen. I'm sure your performance will be better than the one I heard ... it's a lovely piece.
Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by Greener
I'm going to side with your wife on this one though, and suggest it is time to start dusting
Done and, er, dusted! But thanks for you support
You got it, anytime, and glad the dusting is now under control, and working out recording bugs to boot
Originally Posted by zrtf90
If you want to stretch the definition of rubato by all means slow it down where you want to and bring out the piquant effect but don't just cover a technical difficulty.
I don't agree with this 'play it the way the composer intended' malarkey because the composers were playing to be listened to as much as saying something and they were obviously saying it in a way that was fashionable at the time. So play it now in a way that suits our preferred way of listening. My two ha'p'orth - add salt to taste!
OK, this helps, a lot. I learned a lot of rubato when I was young and began applying it where it did not belong. A bad habit I picked up as a result of not having a disciplined approach to learning. So, I am more cognizant of this now. But, there are instances where it IS appropriate.
Now, I have a better definition of when and how to apply it when it is appropriate.
As I listen to the performance of this work, below, I notice the definite disparity of tempo throughout. Some noticeable slow downs and speed ups. It would not be possible, for example, to line up a metronome beat with this performance.
"espressivo" is not denoted in the score as it was in the Chopin, prelude. But, is very evident in this performance. Also, I think it is very effective in strengthening the dramatic and emotional appeal.
I totally loved the way this was played. Rubato or using time expressively is something that I am trying to get a handle on (with help). It appears that your expressiveness in timing needs to be tempered by the need to maintain pulse, which I think is more the rhythm from measure to measure, or maybe of significant beats. In learning to play this way it seems, like Richard says, you first have to be able to play it accurately without rubato. I think you need to know why you are doing what you do. Could we think of this as similar to what an effective orator does, who uses pitch, volume, and timing to keep the attention of the audience?
Could we think of this as similar to what an effective orator does, who uses pitch, volume, and timing to keep the attention of the audience?
That's a good analogy, keystring. The delivery changes with the mood you're in, the intended audience and other circumstances to a spontaneous recital.
I know my own performances/interpretations differ after watching a weepy movie and playing chess.
It would be worth experimenting with how much to lean on the dotted notes and what effect it has on the melody in the different places it's used. Sometimes it's used to break two similar chords, e.g. M5, and other times to add to the appogiatura effect, e.g. M4. What other uses does he make of it?
To suspend the changes?
M11 - Gm7 to C7 in M12 M12 - A/C# to Dm in M13 (a lovely change here and I think prolonged and suspended by the dotted quarter)
Question: M19, M21, M28 or M31 for example. Am I really supposed to hold the dotted note longer then the other notes just below it that are not dotted? This is going to be a tricky business ...
Question: M19, M21, M28 or M31 for example. Am I really supposed to hold the dotted note longer then the other notes just below it that are not dotted?
Imagine the dotted quaver as three semi's tied. It's just like quarter notes in one hand and eighths in the other. Take each measure on it's own.
Re-write the measure if you like with a half-inch between each semi so you get an easier to read visual of the rhythm. Once you get it right mechanically (and too slow to count) you can start playing at a countable tempo. Playing at a countable tempo means two things: 1. you've got it and 2. all you need to do now is play it often enough for it to reach recital tempo, naturally and in its own time, just from consistent repetition.
How do I explain it? It sounds more melodic, floating, dancing vs., what it would be without the dotted eighth.
Originally Posted by zrtf90
Imagine the dotted quaver as three semi's tied. It's just like quarter notes in one hand and eighths in the other.
OK, this shouldn't be so bad. I've looked at all the places where this occurs and most will actually be straight forward. But, I had been omitting to this point.
In M31 it starts with a chord containing a dotted "g" and the very next eighth chord also contains a "g" again. How is this possible? It must be a misprint. I either need to tie them (there is no tie) or play the g again in which case the first g should not have been dotted.
Or, what am I missing?
Last edited by Greener; 11/04/1204:54 PM. Reason: M31 not M30
In M31 it starts with a chord containing a dotted "g" and the very next eighth chord also contains a "g" again. How is this possible? It must be a misprint. I either need to tie them (there is no tie) or play the g again in which case the first g should not have been dotted.
Or, what am I missing?
That's a dot over/under the note not alongside it. Those indicate staccato - like the eighth notes in M2.
The only 'dotted' notes in M30 are the F and A on beat 3.
