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#2004032 - 12/24/12 03:56 PM is there a european technique difference with hand position
maduro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
Hello forum
I have asked this before and got no where

the question is hand position

I had a teacher I believe she was from Austria
but not sure definitely Ukranian

she had me hold my hand so that when the key was depressed my fingers were completely straight and vertical as if they were standing on the keys like posts.

at first it was pretty strange and uncomfortable

I have revisited this method again for the last few weeks
and I have to say my scales sound less clumsy more even more fluid
and overall it is a better sound

I am just curious has anyone else tried this or seen this method.
here is a video of me attempting to demonstrate

youtube video


Edited by maduro (12/24/12 04:11 PM)

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#2004043 - 12/24/12 04:29 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
bplary1300 Offline
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Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 352
Loc: Maine
Hello! The technique you speak of in which your fingers are vertical and straight looks a lot more tense...you move your wrists and hands a lot more and it seems like it may be wasting a lot of energy. I'd stick with curved fingers for the majority of pieces!
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#2004160 - 12/24/12 11:44 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
Morodiene Offline
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I don't think there is a benefit to the stand-up method. I recall this being posted on the teacher's forum earlier and I'm glad you have a video now to share to help explain it. Now seeing it, I think there's too much extraneous movement, meaning it's inefficient and will eventually break down. You claim to feel better playing with this (although I do not hear any difference between your A & B), and while that may in your mind lend it more weight, perhaps you would want to consider what it is that feels better. This is very important. I think the high wrists are not good as you eliminate any arm weight. However, because your "A" method may be flawed, you're siding with the "B" method right now since it may simply be eliminating that flaw, but in the long run is limiting in itself.

On a side note, how did you get your piano to get higher as you go down?? I was very distracted by that in the video trying to figure out what was going on LOL!
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#2004360 - 12/25/12 06:03 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
Birgitte Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 11
Loc: Norway
I am a scale lover, but there is a lot of different ways to work with the scales. The normal and the way you should play while playing a music piece is ofcourse with the fingers curved. However by playing it in other ways you can achieve different results.

F. ex: I often work with my fingers completely flat, and move my fingers slowly by lifting the arm, with the result of having a minimum of tension in my arms and fingers, then I transfer this relaxed mode to my normal scale playing, so I can play with less tension.

I just tested your teacher's way of playing scales, and what I found good about it, was that it helped me with having the finger right over the tangent before I pressed it down, and it was easier to put it precisely in the middle of the tagent, so if hitting accuratly and precisely is your goal, I guess this is a good excersise. However there is a gret tension in the hands, and the thumb is standing up in a horrid way (the secret behind good scales is a good relaxed thumb). If you feel comfortable with hitting precise I would recomend you to work with relaxation, and also play more than one octave at once to get a good flow.

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#2004375 - 12/25/12 08:32 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
pianoloverus Offline
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As far a scale technique goes why would one play/practice/demonstrate only one octave unless one is a complete beginner? Kind of like demonstrating a trill by playing just two notes. The whole difficulty is about passing the thumb under both the third and fourth finger.

The suggestion from the Austrian teacher, if your demo is what was really suggested, looks completely absurd to me. No good pianist plays scales or anything else with fingers positioned like that.The only time one might play with a hand in that position is one when is forced to in passages where the two hands are playing "on top of each other" so one is forced to lift one hand very high to get it out of the way of the other hand.

Your verbal description of the fingers being completely straight and vertical also doesn't match what you did. It's possible the teacher meant the first joint of the finger in that position which sounds more like playing with very curved fingers


Edited by pianoloverus (12/26/12 06:08 PM)

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#2004390 - 12/25/12 09:17 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
gooddog Offline
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Registered: 06/08/08
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Loc: Seattle area, WA
In my experience, there does seem to be a Russian style of technique exemplified by a high bridge and high fingertips that reach up in the air and then move downward as if to pull the note towards the palm. It looks almost like the motion a hand would make when the fingertips wave goodbye, but it is individual fingers that do the motion.

One of the Russian teacher's I met at the Victoria Conservatory said this is how she was taught at the Moscow Conservatory. To me, it looks like wasted motion but she plays every note with great beauty. Watching her play is like watching a finger ballet. I cannot make this style feel natural and I do not use it but it works beautifully for her.

Edit: I took a look at your video and I notice when you use the straight finger technique you are referring to, your shoulders tense up and your wrists are very high. I think the high wrists might invite injury and the tense shoulders will give a harsh sound.


Edited by gooddog (12/25/12 09:45 PM)
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#2004723 - 12/26/12 08:55 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: gooddog]
fledgehog Offline
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Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 273
Loc: West Hartford, CT
Originally Posted By: gooddog
In my experience, there does seem to be a Russian style of technique exemplified by a high bridge and high fingertips that reach up in the air and then move downward as if to pull the note towards the palm. It looks almost like the motion a hand would make when the fingertips wave goodbye, but it is individual fingers that do the motion.


I know the motion you're talking about. For some reason, I associate it in my mind with Horowitz. Don't know if he does it regularly, or if I'm just remembering a specific video, but he's definitely done it.

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#2004724 - 12/26/12 09:05 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Registered: 05/15/12
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Watch some of the vids of Lisitsa. She often uses it on trills and I can't figure out how it would work. I don't think the "dive bomber" concept works very well.
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#2005604 - 12/28/12 02:25 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
Aldous Offline
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Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
Don't know how this would work as a global approach to all scale playing. For expressive purposes here and there, yes.

And, maduro, as another poster noticed when you play on the video with high fingertips your shoulders hike up. Careful. The Land of Tension is only fingersteps away!
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#2005846 - 12/29/12 01:09 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Ferdinand Online   content
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Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 936
Loc: California
Your comment about Lisitsa reminds me of a pianist I knew in college, a fellow student, very talented and accomplished. He played trills with vertical fingers. I'm sure his teacher at that time did not teach this technique; more likely he developed it on his own.

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#2005945 - 12/29/12 09:38 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
keystring Offline
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I have no expertise to share. I am in the first stages of relearning/learning. But I think I can trust some observations in the raw.

When you play in the old way, the sound is not as strong or solid, and I think one or two notes was weaker. When you do the new thing, the sound is strong and solid. In the new way, your whole arm mechanism is moving from fingertip to shoulder, while the older way it's mostly the fingers. Impression: the whole arm mechanism working seems the right direction - except that you don't know yet what to do with the rest of you, so these awkward things are going on. Maybe your teacher is setting this up, so that over time the whole mechanism will start working together. You may be only at the first stage of what your teacher has in mind.

I've been working with a teacher on physical playing for the first time part of this year. I was self-taught decades ago. When I played melody notes as opposed to chords, my hand was perfectly still and only my fingers moved, and those fingers are naturally quite curved. I had difficulty playing fast, I cramped, got numbness, had a weak sound - it wasn't good. Among the things we're doing based on what my teacher is seeing and how I'm responding:
- getting movement in all the joints
- for now, exaggerated movement, like when a little kid draws using his whole arm using fat crayons, and later on what's left are micro-motions. This is to unlock what is locked up, and teach the body how it can move
- involving movement of the hand even when playing single notes (nothing gets locked up)
- aiming toward straighter fingers because mine are so curved normally that this balances it out.

Some of the principles are that if it sounds better, feels better, and starts to look right, then it probably is right. Anyhow, seeing this video reminded me of some of what I'm doing. We each have our individual weaknesses, and we don't know what your teacher's larger plan is.

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#2005962 - 12/29/12 10:29 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
maduro Offline
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Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
I agree with the last poster and I am glad that some people stepped forward and have seen this method before.

I think one person says No good piano player would play scales like this.
why do people say such things.
when I stated that a piano teacher (a graduate student at Aaron copland conservatory she was a performance major) taught me the method really taught me not just demonstrated it was some years ago and I left it alone for many years so I am a little clumsy with it now but
she had to at least be good. So glad to hear about other great players who have utilized this technique
so now we know that there are a few good piano players out there who do it.

I didn't say this before but the only other time I saw this method used was by a young guy in sam ash he had a Ukrainian teacher also and he played with the fingers standing straight

and I have to say he played the most beautiful scales.

I don't have a teacher now and I am sure the hiking of the shoulders was because of my lack of familiarity with the method.
I will make sure to keep an eye on extraneous motions. thanks for pointing that stuff out

apart from the bone headed comments there are a lot of helpful advice and observations presented on this forum
I think it is cool to have a community of player willing to help

for the next few weeks

I will work on staying relaxed but I am going to stick to this method for a while

for a few reasons
one I do notice a difference I don't think it is in my mind
I notice however on the video there seems to be little difference

two as was said be a few posters it does work and sound great
when done right

three I love doing things that are rare and different
especially when they work

four
I have done the more normal method all my playing life and my scales are mediocre at best.

time to make a change stupidity is doing the same things and expecting different results right?

it wont hurt to give this method a few months of my time

Thanks to everyone for sharing


Edited by maduro (12/29/12 10:51 AM)

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#2005969 - 12/29/12 10:55 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19231
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: maduro
I agree with the last poster and I am glad that some of people stepped forward and have seen this method before.

I didn't say this before but the only other time I saw this method used was by a young guy in sam ash he had a Ukrainian teacher also and he played with the fingers standing straight

and I have to say he played the most beautiful scales.

I don't have a teacher now and I am sure the hiking of the shoulders was because of my lack of familiarity with the method.

perhaps a few weeks will help things out.

I will work on staying relaxed but I am going to stick to this method for a while

for a few reasons
one I do notice a difference
two as was said be a few posters it does work and sound great
when done right

three I love doing things that are rare and different
especially when they work

four
I have done the more normal method all my playing life and my scales are mediocre at best.

time to make a change stupidity is doing the same things and expecting different results right?

it wont hurt to give this method a few months of my time

Thanks to everyone for sharing


and to the first poster
I did the scales for one octave to keep it in the camera view
I usually do three or four octaves during practice
If you think the method with vertical fingers is appropriate for scales, try and find a YouTube recording of a world class pianist who plays this way and post the recording. There are a few situations where a small number of pianists play with a very high wrist and somewhat vertical fingers, but I don't think you'll find a single example when they're playing scales that way.

You also need to be very careful of how you describe this idea. There is astronomical difference between suggesting that the first joint vs. the first and second joints vs. the entire finger(all three joints) are vertical. The last one, which seems to be the one you're advocating and demonstrate before you play the scales, is virtually unheard of in correct scale playing IMO.

I'm surprised any posters have thought an approach with the entire finger vertical might be reasonable. My guess is the teacher you mentioned suggested holding just the first joint of your finger vertical. I don't know if this is a particularly desirable but at least it's possible to play scales this way and usually would be called playing with very curved fingers.


Edited by pianoloverus (12/29/12 11:12 AM)

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#2006015 - 12/29/12 12:26 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: pianoloverus]
maduro Offline
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Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
the fact that you think I didn't understand the lesson is kind of interesting.
maybe you think I am not smart enough to understand.

I had more than a few lessons and she clearly had me have all five fingers completely straight. we both were at Aaron copland school of music which is a top shelf conservatory
she was a performance major getting her masters
I was a first semester theory student


the fact that it doesent make sense to you doesent mean it is a useless or incorrect method.
all I can say is her scales sounded
awesome. and I was quite lucid during our lessons and yea all of the fingers stood like posts straight up.

I have only seen it done one other time
but both times the scales sounded great.
I am not sure that me spending hours searching for someone else who played scales like this is worth the effort.

This is how she instructed me to play scales
I wasn't with her long and I think I will give another crack at it.

I don't think your ignorance or a better way to say it your lack of understanding to the purpose discredits the method
it just means you and apparently not many people know about it or know its purpose
but there are many roads less travelled that are the better road.



The fact that we are still here talking about says that there is something to it
otherwise no one would bother.


Edited by maduro (12/29/12 12:27 PM)

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#2006027 - 12/29/12 12:53 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: maduro

I have only seen it done one other time
but both times the scales sounded great.
I am not sure that me spending hours searching for someone else who played scales like this is worth the effort.

This is how she instructed me to play scales
I wasn't with her long and I think I will give another crack at it.



I don't think a good technique can be properly taught in a short period of time. Perhaps you understand the basics that she was able to get through, but did she give you her stamp of approval on how you are playing now?

Sometimes a teacher will have a student do some exaggerated technique in order to address a particular issue or introduce a particular concept of playing. Then they will add to that technique over time until it arrives at the place where there is freedom and consistency in the playing.

Obviously there are tension issues in both ways of your playing, and the best way to address them is with a teacher. I think it *is* worthwhile trying to find another teacher who teaches this method so that you can continue and really give the technique a good chance, rather than just keep doing what you're doing and hope that it will get better that way.
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#2006088 - 12/29/12 03:47 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
pianoloverus Offline
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Originally Posted By: maduro

I am not sure that me spending hours searching for someone else who played scales like this is worth the effort.
But if any great pianists use this method it should be easy to find many examples quickly. Do you think this teacher is privy to some secret method of playing scales that hasn't been tried before? If this method is from the Russian school of piano playing then it should be obvious by looking at any of the thousands of YouTube videos of the great Russian pianists.

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#2006098 - 12/29/12 04:04 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
GeorgeB Offline
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Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
Problems (I see) with playing with vertical fingers and high wrist:

1. You aren't playing with the most sensitive part of the finger meaning it will be harder to control the sound.

2. Such a high wrist means to play each note you need more effort and a bigger movement meaning when you it will be harder to play very fast.

3. Because you lose the bridge shape of the hand, that brings several disadvantages such as it makes it harder to control the evenness of the scale.

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#2006236 - 12/29/12 08:25 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
pianoloverus Offline
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If one takes the OP's description literally, i.e. completely straight and completely vertical fingers, the only way to move the key down is by dropping the hand on every note. Any movement of just the finger would be parallel to the ground. So I think this description makes playing almost anything except an isolated chord or note not just difficult but impossible. And it does not correctly describe what he shows in the second video which is playing with an extremely high wrist and part of the finger in a somewhat vertical postiion.

There is a difference between playing with perfectly straight fingers in a completely vertical position and playing with one or two joints fairly straight. So, for starters I think the OP needs a far different description of the playing in the second video.

But even with a more accurate description I don't think there exists a YouTube video with a good pianist playing scales with the hand position shown in the second video.

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#2006324 - 12/30/12 01:50 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
maduro Offline
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Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
If you saw only somewhat straight fingers then I demonstrated incorrectly
if my wrists were too high that is because I was playing the scales so incorrectly
the wrist is high but it also lowers in a fluid up and down motion

I will revisit this in a few weeks

I have every confidence in this technique.

every confidence

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#2006365 - 12/30/12 05:33 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
GeorgeB Offline
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The wrist only moves sideways when the hand changes positions not up and down with each individual note.

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#2006368 - 12/30/12 05:41 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: GeorgeB]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
The wrist only moves sideways when the hand changes positions not up and down with each individual note.

All the joints of the body have to be able to move, including allowing up and down motion at the wrist. I don't think this is strictly correct.

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#2006376 - 12/30/12 06:04 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: GeorgeB]
GeorgeB Offline
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I never said (didn't mean) to say your hand must be completely frozen and stiff. There will be other movements but the main one should be sideways in the direction you are going to play.

Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
The wrist only moves sideways when the hand changes positions not up and down with each individual note.



I feel like doing a YouTube vid of my scales now.

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#2006485 - 12/30/12 10:45 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: GeorgeB]
pianoloverus Offline
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Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
I never said (didn't mean) to say your hand must be completely frozen and stiff. There will be other movements but the main one should be sideways in the direction you are going to play.

Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
The wrist only moves sideways when the hand changes positions not up and down with each individual note.


I feel like doing a YouTube vid of my scales now.
Well, of course, the wrist must move sideways if one is playing a scale. But if the fingers are actually completely straight and completely vertical then the only way to get the key to go down would be to lower the hand on each note. The whole concept, if followed exactly as stated in the last sentence(which is what I believe the OP is recommending) , makes scale playing virtually impossible. That's why I don't think anyone can find a video of any professional pianist playing scales that way.


Edited by pianoloverus (12/30/12 12:07 PM)

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#2006594 - 12/30/12 03:02 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
maduro Offline
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Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
Let me correct you pianoloverus
the fingers are straight but the hand is held just high enough to allow the fingers to reach the keybed straight

in fact I am not sure I know exactly the mechanism
but I can assure you with utmost confidence you are wrong in saying
that it is impossible to play the scales this way

quite the contrary
the scales become very fluid



I am already starting to see progress

instead of debating the issue

why not wait until the end of January after working with this method
for a few more weeks I will post another video and you tell me what you see.



Edited by maduro (12/30/12 03:04 PM)

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#2006604 - 12/30/12 03:30 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted By: maduro
[...]a few more weeks I will post another video and you tell me what you see.



... and when you do, please post your playing of a four-octave unison (i.e. hands together) scale at a reasonably good tempo, which should be at least MM = 120, four notes to the beat. If you can combine contrary motion within that exercise, so much the better.

This example should help establish your claim about ease and fluidity.

Regards,
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#2006622 - 12/30/12 04:03 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
keystring Offline
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Morodiene's advice was on track: find a teacher and work with that teacher to form your playing mechanism. It does not have to be the same thing that this first teacher did. If you have certain strengths and weaknesses right now, chances are that it may go in the same direction, but from another angle. I recommend that you do NOT follow BruceD's advice, for a number of reasons.

I'd like to introduce a concept that I'll call "end results" and "process". The end results are things like playing a scale with good motion and good sound, or anything that we might deem "correct". "Process" is teaching and training that gets us there. A teacher might have a student do things that don't seem to make sense or even look good, because the teacher has a final thing in mind that will develop. The biggest problem such teachers face is that students are looking for the final product, and are not open minded enough to give it a chance. Then outsiders also come in and talk about how everything is "supposed to be". You are caught mid-stream. This teacher gave you something to start with, and if she was a good teacher, then she would have developed other things, tweaking and suggesting. That's why Morodiene's idea is good. You should be working with someone.

If you do what BruceD says, then you are aiming for end results. You might hurt yourself in the process, and I see no purpose in it, period. If you were to consult a good teacher, NO teacher would have you aiming for such results - they would be aiming at getting your technique developed properly first. Trying to play a four octave scale at MM=120, 4 notes, can result in sloppy habits which is not what you want to establish.

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#2006639 - 12/30/12 04:54 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
GeorgeB Offline
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I don't think Bruce meant to practise scales at 120 bpm ...
I think you misinterpreted what he said. I'm not saying what you said is wrong, I do agree with it.

Bruce was suggesting for him to show us scales done at that speed to prove us that the end results were good. Bruce was not telling him to practise at that speed. That would be silly.

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#2006689 - 12/30/12 06:47 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: pianoloverus]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
I never said (didn't mean) to say your hand must be completely frozen and stiff. There will be other movements but the main one should be sideways in the direction you are going to play.

Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
The wrist only moves sideways when the hand changes positions not up and down with each individual note.


I feel like doing a YouTube vid of my scales now.
Well, of course, the wrist must move sideways if one is playing a scale. But if the fingers are actually completely straight and completely vertical then the only way to get the key to go down would be to lower the hand on each note. The whole concept, if followed exactly as stated in the last sentence(which is what I believe the OP is recommending) , makes scale playing virtually impossible. That's why I don't think anyone can find a video of any professional pianist playing scales that way.


When speaking or writing about sound, especially when one is perhaps not accustomed to doing so like a teacher might be, descriptions of how one accomplishes a sound or feel can be less than precise. I think this is the case, because his written description (which I read on this forum and his previous post on the Teacher's forum) was clearly not what he was doing in the video. In such cases, of course, it comes down to what he actually is doing and the resulting sound and not words used to describe it in this instance.

Having said that, I agree with pianoloverus that this technique seems inefficient given the only visual/aural example we have - a student who admittedly did not perfect this technique under his teacher's direction. Which means we cannot really consider the example legitimate unless the OP can provide video examples of those who have perfected this technique.
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#2006702 - 12/30/12 07:08 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: GeorgeB]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
I don't think Bruce meant to practise scales at 120 bpm ...
I think you misinterpreted what he said. I'm not saying what you said is wrong, I do agree with it.

Bruce was suggesting for him to show us scales done at that speed to prove us that the end results were good. Bruce was not telling him to practise at that speed. That would be silly.


I understand that.

Ok, there are a couple of things that I don't know. People who are excellent pianists often had good instruction when they were young. They got solid grounding in their technique at an age where it happens outside of your awareness, and then it's just part of them. I don't know if they're aware of the process of getting that technique (or remediating from being self-taught or badly taught). Once you have the technique, then you use it for things like playing scales. In lessons that were well set up the various things develop hand in hand. Of course someone who also teaches beginners, developing their skills from the ground up, will also become aware of it. I don't know where Bruce and others are in this.

So say someone's technique is being developed in stages - that is something that is in the process of being formed. If it's midway then it's neither fish nor fowl. If you know that, you won't be asking the person to do something like these scales at that tempo. It doesn't prove anything, because it is a thing under development. It can also harm the person trying it, as well as harming the technique being formed, if there is something bona fide underway.

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#2006706 - 12/30/12 07:38 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: keystring]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
I don't think Bruce meant to practise scales at 120 bpm ...
I think you misinterpreted what he said. I'm not saying what you said is wrong, I do agree with it.

Bruce was suggesting for him to show us scales done at that speed to prove us that the end results were good. Bruce was not telling him to practise at that speed. That would be silly.


I understand that.

Ok, there are a couple of things that I don't know. People who are excellent pianists often had good instruction when they were young. They got solid grounding in their technique at an age where it happens outside of your awareness, and then it's just part of them. I don't know if they're aware of the process of getting that technique (or remediating from being self-taught or badly taught). Once you have the technique, then you use it for things like playing scales. In lessons that were well set up the various things develop hand in hand. Of course someone who also teaches beginners, developing their skills from the ground up, will also become aware of it. I don't know where Bruce and others are in this.

So say someone's technique is being developed in stages - that is something that is in the process of being formed. If it's midway then it's neither fish nor fowl. If you know that, you won't be asking the person to do something like these scales at that tempo. It doesn't prove anything, because it is a thing under development. It can also harm the person trying it, as well as harming the technique being formed, if there is something bona fide underway.


Wel, this is no longer in the process of being formed because he is no longer studying with the teacher of this technique and only did so for a short time. Also, the OP is going to teach himself this technique that he doesn't fully know regardless of Bruce's suggestion. Lastly, I'm pretty sure Bruce's recommendation was tongue-in-cheek, saying that he will not be able to play scales like that at that speed with accuracy and evenness. The OP seems determined to do this technique regardless of what people say here.
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#2006718 - 12/30/12 07:58 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: Morodiene]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene

Well, this is no longer in the process of being formed because he is no longer studying with the teacher of this technique and only did so for a short time. Also, the OP is going to teach himself this technique that he doesn't fully know regardless of Bruce's suggestion.

It is the beginning stage of some process that is aiming for something that neither we nor the OP know, precisely because it did stop in the beginning. It is not a technique. It is something that might lead to a technique. The OP might pursue the idea and see where it leads and maybe he will learn something useful through observation and experimentation. I did see advice/suggestion, but it was from you, Morodiene, and I agree with it - namely to work with a teacher. I did not see any suggestion by Bruce on what he should be doing (re: despite his suggestion) - I might have missed it.
Quote:

Lastly, I'm pretty sure Bruce's recommendation was tongue-in-cheek, saying that he will not be able to play scales like that at that speed with accuracy and evenness.

In fact, I'm sure that it was meant that way. But for someone who seems to be still at the beginning of learning, such ideas can be taken literally, or they can be taken as a challenge to be met by hook or by crook. This could do harm. It has taken me a lot of time to get over injury and some other after effects from my first studies, and I would not want such things to happen to anyone else. This is NOT something to be aimed for, and it is useless to go down that path.

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#2006728 - 12/30/12 08:18 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: keystring]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

Well, this is no longer in the process of being formed because he is no longer studying with the teacher of this technique and only did so for a short time. Also, the OP is going to teach himself this technique that he doesn't fully know regardless of Bruce's suggestion.

It is the beginning stage of some process that is aiming for something that neither we nor the OP know, precisely because it did stop in the beginning. It is not a technique. It is something that might lead to a technique. The OP might pursue the idea and see where it leads and maybe he will learn something useful through observation and experimentation. I did see advice/suggestion, but it was from you, Morodiene, and I agree with it - namely to work with a teacher. I did not see any suggestion by Bruce on what he should be doing (re: despite his suggestion) - I might have missed it.
Quote:

Lastly, I'm pretty sure Bruce's recommendation was tongue-in-cheek, saying that he will not be able to play scales like that at that speed with accuracy and evenness.

In fact, I'm sure that it was meant that way. But for someone who seems to be still at the beginning of learning, such ideas can be taken literally, or they can be taken as a challenge to be met by hook or by crook. This could do harm. It has taken me a lot of time to get over injury and some other after effects from my first studies, and I would not want such things to happen to anyone else. This is NOT something to be aimed for, and it is useless to go down that path.


Well, saying it doesn't mean one should do it, nor does it mean that not saying it will mean the OP won't try to do it anyways. Meaning, it seems he's made up his mind to teach himself this technique, and who knows what he will try to play with it? It's his decision either way.
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#2006732 - 12/30/12 08:26 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
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It's so heartening to read that readers know "what Bruce meant;" it saves me some typing.

I believe it was the OP who raised the challenge in the following excerpts from his posts on this thread (some editing to compensate for his strange spacing):

I have revisited this method again for the last few weeks and I have to say my scales sound less clumsy more even more fluid and overall it is a better sound (2004032)

I didn't say this before but the only other time I saw this method used was by a young guy in sam ash he had a Ukrainian teacher also and he played with the fingers standing straight and I have to say he played the most beautiful scales. (2005962)

[sam ash? Who/What is sam ash?]

the fingers are straight but the hand is held just high enough to allow the fingers to reach the keybed straight in fact I am not sure I know exactly the mechanism but I can assure you with utmost confidence you are wrong in saying that it is impossible to play the scales this way quite the contrary the scales become very fluid I am already starting to see progress
instead of debating the issue why not wait until the end of January after working with this method for a few more weeks I will post another video and you tell me what you see.(2006594)

Admittedly MM = 120 per quarter note might not be a goal for a month-long attempt at reviving this manner of playing scales. So, I'll settle for any tempo - but surely more than one octave and with hands together - that shows fluidity and ease of execution.

Surely only a minimal amount of common sense would dictate that one wouldn't practice this "method" at the ultimate tempo. Let the OP give us what he can in the time he has with the skills available.

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#2006744 - 12/30/12 08:43 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: BruceD]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: BruceD

Surely only a minimal amount of common sense would dictate that one wouldn't practice this "method" at the ultimate tempo. Let the OP give us what he can in the time he has with the skills available.


The OP got the start of some kind of training that would eventually lead somewhere if the teacher's approach is ok. It is not anywhere yet. Right now I'm in remediation getting proper technique for the first time, and anything I have is in between and on its way to becoming something. The difference is that I have a few years experience and this is the second instrument I'm working with, so I understand it a bit more. In my case I know that what I am doing will lead to a technique but I don't have that technique. It is right for me to continue what I am doing. It would be idiotic to "prove" that it will go somewhere by doing something like you suggested. Failing at it also would not prove that the instructions I'm getting are false --- only that this is the wrong time, because the technique is not there.

There is no reason whatsoever that the OP should do this. It's not the stage he is at. There is no benefit, and it could be harmful. Again.

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#2006758 - 12/30/12 09:09 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: keystring]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring


The OP got the start of some kind of training that would eventually lead somewhere if the teacher's approach is ok. It is not anywhere yet. Right now I'm in remediation getting proper technique for the first time, and anything I have is in between and on its way to becoming something. The difference is that I have a few years experience and this is the second instrument I'm working with, so I understand it a bit more. In my case I know that what I am doing will lead to a technique but I don't have that technique. It is right for me to continue what I am doing. It would be idiotic to "prove" that it will go somewhere by doing something like you suggested. Failing at it also would not prove that the instructions I'm getting are false --- only that this is the wrong time, because the technique is not there.

There is no reason whatsoever that the OP should do this. It's not the stage he is at. There is no benefit, and it could be harmful. Again.


It seems as though you should be arguing with the OP about his technique which either is flawed in concept or in execution (or both) to help prevent him from injuring himself, and not those of us who are also telling him his technique as it is isn't really helping him and that he needs a teacher's guidance.
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#2006761 - 12/30/12 09:11 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: BruceD]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: BruceD
It's so heartening to read that readers know "what Bruce meant;" it saves me some typing.



Haha, only because you said what I was thinking too! wink I certainly felt that your question of proof along with pianoloverus's were reasonable given the OP's assertions.
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#2006764 - 12/30/12 09:14 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: BruceD]
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Originally Posted By: BruceD

[sam ash? Who/What is sam ash?]


Music store. (guitars, keyboards, etc.)
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#2006768 - 12/30/12 09:23 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: Morodiene]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene

It seems as though you should be arguing with the OP about his technique which either is flawed in concept or in execution (or both) to help prevent him from injuring himself, and not those of us who are also telling him his technique as it is isn't really helping him and that he needs a teacher's guidance.


I have insisted all along that your advice to get a teacher's guidance was the route to take. A challenge to play those scales can push in exactly the wrong direction. I think the OP has more sense than that, but still.

Happy New Year, everyone.

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#2006772 - 12/30/12 09:34 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: keystring]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

It seems as though you should be arguing with the OP about his technique which either is flawed in concept or in execution (or both) to help prevent him from injuring himself, and not those of us who are also telling him his technique as it is isn't really helping him and that he needs a teacher's guidance.


I have insisted all along that your advice to get a teacher's guidance was the route to take. A challenge to play those scales can push in exactly the wrong direction. I think the OP has more sense than that, but still.

Happy New Year, everyone.

My main point is that he seems to want to do this heck-or-high-water no matter what warnings he's been given by any number of qualified teachers and pianists on this site, and has not really provided any definitive proof that it is actually a legit technique.

I appreciate your concern for the OP, and agree, but I don't think he will heed that any more than anything else that has been said. If he injures himself, hopefully he'll have the sense to then seek help to undo his bad (self-taught) habits.
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#2007009 - 12/31/12 11:20 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
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I definitely play at 120 bpm in contrary motion

in fact when I was with this teacher

we had a slight disagreement over speed

I wanted to play at painfully slow speed
and she wanted me to play very rapidly

she said I played slow long enough it was time to put some speed into it

don't worry

for those who are truly interested I will be ready by mid January to demonstrate these scales

no worries

and call me maduro
we are all piano forum family
right?

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#2010329 - 01/06/13 11:58 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
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here it is 120bpm
and a second video doing a slower demonstration where I can still achieve the high hand position

i couldnt do this two weeks ago the method is working

demonstration

youtube 120bpm


Edited by maduro (01/07/13 12:30 AM)

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#2010335 - 01/07/13 12:19 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
ando Offline
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Originally Posted By: maduro
here it is 120bpm

i couldnt do this two weeks ago the method is working

youtube 120bpm


But now your wrist height appears to have come down quite a bit. It seems like you are demonstrating a fairly typical hand position now.

Are you trying to say that you have been practising with a high hand and straight fingers, just as an exercise to develop certain muscles, and then when you play at 120bpm you just return to a comfortable position?

Or are you claiming that this new video is depicting your new technique?

I would hope you are claiming the former rather than the latter, because your new video certainly doesn't demonstrate the high wrist/straight fingers thing you were showing at slow speed in your first video.

I'm not being sarcastic here Maduro - I'm genuinely confused about the point you are trying to make. You are playing in a way that is typical for a lot of people in your new video.

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#2010337 - 01/07/13 12:23 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
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I am saying that the practice of the high hand position has allowed me to smooth out my scale playing

when I practice slowly I can get the higher hand position
but at 120bpm however I find it impossible at this time to achieve anywhere near that speed. using the higher hand position but my teacher could
so lets see what happens

my mid january deadline is still a little ways off
I thought I would put up a few videos of me doing executing
there is definitely an improvement in my scale playing from two weeks ago and to be honest I havent been doing a whole lot of practicing

but when I do practice I do it slowly with the high hand position


Edited by maduro (01/07/13 12:25 AM)

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#2010342 - 01/07/13 12:34 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
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What I do notice is that one hand seems to be doing the straight finger thing more than the other.
I cant tell if it is my right or my left hand since the video is reversed I am a little intoxicated right now so I certainly dont have the brain power to figure it out

demonstration


Edited by maduro (01/07/13 12:35 AM)

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#2010344 - 01/07/13 12:41 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
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I have yet to see a positive result from that method.

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#2010350 - 01/07/13 01:01 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: GeorgeB]
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It doesent really matter whether you see a positive result
I am simply demonstrating that it is a method
and we will all see what happens
I have done it since two weeks ago perhaps 4 practice sessions
and I can hear a smoothing out of my scales

maybe it is the loosening of the wrists
maybe it is working some muscles
what I do know is that my scales have improved.

first i was told this was an impossible method
now someone is saying they dont see a benefit
i am not advocating this method just saying I am going to give it a try.




hands separately video

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#2010351 - 01/07/13 01:06 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: ando]
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I think that Maduro's temporary teacher had him try one thing in order to lead somewhere. As soon as you change one thing, other things change. It's not a method as such. If you look at the first video where he shows "before" in the air, he wiggles his fingers while keeping his arms stiff, and when he plays in the "before" way, the action is only in the fingers. But in the early video the new thing he tries gets the whole arm to move, though awkwardly with the hand at a weird angle.

If he is now demonstrating "a fairly typical hand position now", then it has settled down to where it should go. I thought this might happen. You start with the arms moving but it's awkward so you keep experimenting until it's comfortable. It should happen with a teacher who guides and tweaks, but if it looks rather normal now then the right things must have come out of it. Aren't the arms a lot more involved than in the original "before"?

I would still recommend a teacher. That is based partly on what I see and hear.

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#2010369 - 01/07/13 02:06 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: keystring]
ando Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
I think that Maduro's temporary teacher had him try one thing in order to lead somewhere. As soon as you change one thing, other things change. It's not a method as such. If you look at the first video where he shows "before" in the air, he wiggles his fingers while keeping his arms stiff, and when he plays in the "before" way, the action is only in the fingers. But in the early video the new thing he tries gets the whole arm to move, though awkwardly with the hand at a weird angle.

If he is now demonstrating "a fairly typical hand position now", then it has settled down to where it should go. I thought this might happen. You start with the arms moving but it's awkward so you keep experimenting until it's comfortable. It should happen with a teacher who guides and tweaks, but if it looks rather normal now then the right things must have come out of it. Aren't the arms a lot more involved than in the original "before"?

I would still recommend a teacher. That is based partly on what I see and hear.


I think there are a lot of good faith assumptions in there, keystring. Granted it's quite possible that this technique was suggested as a remedial measure to some degree, however that is not what Maduro is describing - nor is it his recollection of watching his teacher's technique. Maduro has been quite adamant that his goal is to play the way he saw his teacher play - that is, with an unusually high wrist and straight, almost vertical fingers. It wasn't described to him as a remedial measure (or at least that's not what he understood it to mean), and his teacher still plays with that technique all the time for scalar passages.

So with that in mind, the second demonstration video needs to be demonstrating these aims - yet it does not. Regardless of whether there has been a misapprehension about the teacher, or even a false memory of what he saw her do with this hand position, the goals expressed in the first video are not carried through to the second video. That is visible to the naked eye. So there is no self-contained logic to this process.

Whether or not Maduro feels more comfortable or fluent now is beside the point, IMO. The crux of his reasoning wasn't whether he was being remediated but rather that he was going to start using a technique involved a high wrist and straight fingers. The moment he deviates from that, I think the argument is null and void. The second video demonstrates neither precision nor fluency, nor the visible evidence of this "new" technique. All we have is a subjective assertion that his scales are now better, and more fluent. It's hard to glean much from that unless we actually see a different technique in action - and with a great deal of technical control and precision. Until that happens, this is highly speculative at best. All I see is a typical hand position that I've seen hundreds of people using - nothing unusual about it in the least. And a performance that is still far from masterful. The rest appears to be self-delusion because Maduro actually believes his hand looks different, but it really doesn't. He believes it sounds better too, and maybe it does, but it's still only comparative and probably more the result of increased practice - given there is no new technique in evidence.

So I tend to think this is more in the mind. A placebo effect, if you will. He thinks he's doing something and feels it is working - even though the video clearly shows normally curved fingers. I'm having trouble reconciling those two concepts. I think increased practice and more focus is what's reaping some results, possibly some subtle change in the musculature, but definitely no paradigm shifting alteration of technique.

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#2010374 - 01/07/13 02:38 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: ando]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: ando
Maduro has been quite adamant that his goal is to play the way he saw his teacher play - that is, with an unusually high wrist and straight, almost vertical fingers.

I checked back. He does not talk about watching his teacher play with a high wrist. He says his teacher told him to make his fingers straight, and this is an old memory. I duplicated this, and you might try it too. Start with your fingers curved as in his "before", with your arms parallel to the floor. Then without adjusting anything else, make your fingers stand up straight from the keys. Something will have to rise. If you don't raise your forearm, then your wrist will curve like a hump. This is how he ended up with that curved wrist at first.

In the new video when he tries things out, you also see him pivoting from finger to finger. This rotation of the hand is also something we do in playing. I think what's happening is that he is falling into some of the extra motions that are there when people play effectively. Maybe she had demonstrated that kind of rotation.

The main difference that I see between "before" and after - and I think it's an important one - is that more than the fingers are moving.

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#2010378 - 01/07/13 02:54 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: keystring]
ando Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: ando
Maduro has been quite adamant that his goal is to play the way he saw his teacher play - that is, with an unusually high wrist and straight, almost vertical fingers.

I checked back. He does not talk about watching his teacher play with a high wrist. He says his teacher told him to make his fingers straight, and this is an old memory.


Maduro did say this (among other things):

Originally Posted By: maduro
all I can say is her scales sounded
awesome. and I was quite lucid during our lessons and yea all of the fingers stood like posts straight up.


I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything there.


Quote:
I duplicated this, and you might try it too. Start with your fingers curved as in his "before", with your arms parallel to the floor. Then without adjusting anything else, make your fingers stand up straight from the keys. Something will have to rise. If you don't raise your forearm, then your wrist will curve like a hump. This is how he ended up with that curved wrist at first.

In the new video when he tries things out, you also see him pivoting from finger to finger. This rotation of the hand is also something we do in playing. I think what's happening is that he is falling into some of the extra motions that are there when people play effectively. Maybe she had demonstrated that kind of rotation.

The main difference that I see between "before" and after - and I think it's an important one - is that more than the fingers are moving.


I'm not specifically commenting on the validity of this technique, only that I see some discrepancy between the stated aims and what is actually happening. I feel that you are having to be quite generous in giving this the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, I don't think this process has been well explained - nor the evidence compelling enough to be championing it as strongly as he is.

But hey, that's just one man's opinion. smile We all reason things in our own way so none of us is free from bias. If I see better video evidence, I'll be more convinced.

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#2010379 - 01/07/13 03:04 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
keystring Offline
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He did not talk about his teacher's wrists doing that weird thing. I think that was a side effect. And in experimenting, a lucky break is that something right happened. It could have been the other way around. We also don't know what happened in that studio.

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#2010384 - 01/07/13 03:11 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: keystring]
ando Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
He did not talk about his teacher's wrists doing that weird thing. I think that was a side effect. And in experimenting, a lucky break is that something right happened. It could have been the other way around. We also don't know what happened in that studio.


A few too many maybes in this for me! I feel that we are all being asked to take this on faith. It needs some decent evidence.

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#2010438 - 01/07/13 06:52 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
pianoloverus Offline
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The demonstration and video are frankly nonsense in relation to the description in the demonstration and the description in the opening post in this thread and in other posts by the OP in this thread.

The OP never plays with completely straight fingers held completely vertically(the verbal description given in the recent videos and in his previous posts and videos) at all. In the first video he plays with a slightly high wrist(which in itself certainly looks awkward and is rarely done by good players)but the fingers are nowhere near vertical or straight. Perhaps the first joint of each finger is close to vertical which is 100% different. After playing a few notes he stops on some note and then raises his wrist much higher straightens out his fingers more and says something like "See my fingers are straight and vertical". But he never does any playing in that position because it's virtually impossible to play scales that way.

In the second video where he plays scales at 120 he simply plays with somewhat higher wrist than normal. His fingers are neither straight(they are curved with the first joint only being straight)nor anywhere near vertical(again just the first joint may be close to vertical but this is totally different from both the verbal description given by the opening post on the videos and posts on this thread).

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#2010440 - 01/07/13 06:58 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
pianoloverus Offline
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The demonstration and video are frankly nonsense in relation to the description in the demonstration and the description in the opening post in this thread and in other posts by the OP in this thread.

The OP never plays with completely straight fingers held completely vertically(the verbal description given in the recent videos and in his previous posts and videos) at all. In the first video he plays with a slightly high wrist(which in itself certainly looks awkward and is rarely done by good players)but the fingers are nowhere near vertical or straight. Perhaps the first joint of each finger is close to vertical which is 100% different. After playing a few notes he stops on some note and then raises his wrist much higher straightens out his fingers more and says something like "See my fingers are straight and vertical". But he never does any playing in that position because it's virtually impossible to play scales that way.

In the second video where he plays scales at 120 he simply plays with somewhat higher wrist than normal. His fingers are neither straight(they are curved with the first joint only being straight)nor anywhere near vertical(again just the first joint may be close to vertical but this is totally different from both the verbal description given by the opening post on the videos and posts on this thread).

Perhaps the OP is really thinking of just the finger tip(or first joint of the finger)in his descriptions as I suppose it's at least possible to play scales with just the finger tip (first joint)at or close to vertical. But that has nothing to do with the actually verbal descriptions he gave or the hand position he demonstrates when he stops in his demonstration video and clearly changes his hand and finger position from what he used while playing the scale.

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#2010452 - 01/07/13 07:26 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
maduro Offline
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I have read all of your comments.

I want you to remember something though
I originally asked if anyone knew of this method
since no one seemed to know what I was talking about
and to add to that ridiculed me

I took up the challenge and said I would try it for a month
and come back and show what improved if anything.
after four days of practice I noticed some improvement so put out a teaser video

if I am still not using straight fingers
That is probably because I am moving too fast
since it seems like you guys wont acknowledge the technique unless I put some speed to it.
so give me another week we will see what happens then


.


Edited by maduro (01/07/13 07:41 AM)

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#2010502 - 01/07/13 09:36 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: maduro

I originally asked if anyone knew of this method

Maduro, what you have is advice by your teacher back then on one isolated aspect of playing. If you had stayed with that teacher, she would have given you other bits of advice as she watched what happened with the way you play. You do not have a "method" --- you have specific advice given to you at a particular time, and you seem to be using it in a good way.

In fact, the idea of a "method" is probably not a good one. The body works in complex way. Three excellent pianists my look totally different, but the way all the parts interconnect work with each of them. This is an important thing to remember as a student should you get that teacher again, or another teacher. With a good teacher you will get different advice at different times - some of it may even appear to conflict. But everything works together.

Consider this one thing: the fingers move (the way you played "before"), and the body also moves (arms at elbows and shoulders, hands from wrists, body at torso, legs and feet doing their thing). So a teacher might give a "finger" advice that ends up affecting how you move your arms, or "arm advice" that tends up affecting how you move your fingers.

You have probably thrown a few people by using the words "technique" and "method". The "technique" (good or bad) is what is evolving from what you are doing. The idea of straight fingers by itself is not a technique.

Quote:

if I am still not using straight fingers that is probably because I am moving too fast.....
.

No, that is not the reason. The straight fingers suggested by your teacher might have been a vehicle for getting you out of the cramped, "finger-only" playing you had before. I would bet that if you went to that teacher right now and showed her this video, that she would say "Good, this is what I had hoped would happen." Consider the fact that her advice might have been a means to the end.

You have not had lessons long enough to experience lessons that evolve. You had them for a short period, got one stage, and now you think that the stage is the complete advice. It is one reason why I suggest (among other people) that you work with a teacher, who will say "Good, you've reached the first step. Now, because of what I see, try this next thing."

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#2010516 - 01/07/13 10:17 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
Kreisler Offline



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A couple of random thoughts on high wrists that may be relevant:

First, it makes it easier to keep the nail joint firm. For pianists who have not yet developed strength in the nail joint, playing with a more vertical finger makes it easier to keep the nail joint from collapsing.

I mention this because it's a problem the OP has. You can see the nail joint collapse quite a bit, but it's not as bad or as often with the higher wrist.

Second, playing with a higher wrist can help avoid the problem of grasping. In the later demonstration video, we see the OP stand up on a tall finger - it's obvious he's not curling or grasping with his fingers. The descent of the key comes more from gravity and a strong bridge than a grasping motion. (Which seems consistent with the OP's pedigree. If his teacher is involved with the Copland school, there's likely to be some Taubman influence - I believe Golandsky teaches there.)

Finally, the post title seems to have thrown people for a loop. We're not really talking about schools of thought or European vs. American or whatever. We're talking about physiology, and there a lot of shades of grey. I would also suggest that the experimentation and attention, not necessarily the technique itself, is at least partly responsible for the progress.

I would encourage the OP to continue exploring wrist height, hand shape, and finger/joint angles as he practices. He should also remain open to the idea that this, while helpful now, may or may not be helpful in the future and to keep in mind that we don't always perform in the same manner that we practice. (He already seems to understand this on some level, since the 120 demonstration obviously has a much different technical setup than the other videos.)
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#2010526 - 01/07/13 10:39 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
maduro Offline
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wow @ last two posts

thanks a lot guys

not to discredit anyone else there have been some really good comments on this thread
but these last two were very objective and not attacking
well constructed criticsims and insights and very encouraging which is why I come to this forum to get help and advice and to share my knowledge with the hope that someone may benefit from my experiences both good and bad.

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#2010560 - 01/07/13 12:04 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
ando Offline
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Originally Posted By: maduro
wow @ last two posts

thanks a lot guys

not to discredit anyone else there have been some really good comments on this thread
but these last two were very objective and not attacking
well constructed criticsims and insights and very encouraging which is why I come to this forum to get help and advice and to share my knowledge with the hope that someone may benefit from my experiences both good and bad.


Maduro, I'm quite sure that you have included my posts in the "attacking" category, but if that's what you took out of it you are not listening properly. I am concerned with the fact that your videos don't seem to match what you describe as a stated aim of your new approach. I'm challenging you to make a unified and consistent approach here. Namely, your second video should show very clear evidence of the technique you describe. To me, it doesn't - therefore we can't really evaluate the technique you are talking about. Nor can you. Your responses tend toward devaluing those that challenge what you are saying and celebrating those who are encouraging with you. But really we are all on the same side here. We are all looking to see how this goes, to see real improvement and to see this unusual technique in action in a precise and musical way. I don't think anybody is interested in dressing you down on a personal level. I certainly am not. Best of luck.

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#2010564 - 01/07/13 12:22 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
PianistOne111 Offline
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I just want to say that a lot of things can affect how one perceives another's technique. Maybe while playing a scale some fingers were standing straight up, while others were not. This could give the illusion that all of them were. Maybe it was just his perspective. I know my technique looks different from above, the side, or the back. He could have been seeing a completely normal scale played ff. Furthermore, be wary of taking things too literally. It's hard to believe that someone could play a scale smoothly with all fingers straight up. With their different lengths one would have a helluva time adjusting other body parts to make all the keys in a scale go down the same speed.
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#2010569 - 01/07/13 12:30 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: keystring]
maduro Offline
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It's all good Ando

I wish I had that teachers info so I could have her demonstrate

but I will keep working on it.

and like others said I will continue to observe and evaluate my results.

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#2010578 - 01/07/13 12:49 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: ando]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: ando

Maduro, I'm quite sure that you have included my posts in the "attacking" category, but if that's what you took out of it you are not listening properly. I am concerned with the fact that your videos don't seem to match what you describe as a stated aim of your new approach.

Ando, I'll address you as a teacher. I'm in a bit of an awkward position since I am at the same time a student getting basic technique - remediation, but I am also getting piano pedagogy along with my training. Since in my other work as a professional teacher (non-music) I've done remediation, worked outside the box, this all flows together, so pls bear with me.

Maduro is a student. His former teacher is the person who gave the instructions, and only she can know what the purpose was. The student might have been given a partial explanation about the purpose, which he may or may not have understood. There may be another purpose, and it could be part of a larger plan - we can't know that. So we should discount the purpose he describes. You should not make him accountable for proving a purpose which he probably doesn't understand. If you were to discuss purpose and method, you would have to discuss it with this teacher - whom we have no access to.

So the only thing we can really do is observe what is happening and what the student says he is experiencing. In the long run he should be working with a teacher in order to further direct this. Right now something cool has happened - he is using more than just his fingers. But how will it develop if left unguided?

I ran into "counterintuitive" and "indirect" some years ago as a student. Some things are not as they seem, or for what they seem to be for. (And some things that seem that way are in fact whacky and dumb.) When you have that, it's between the guiding teacher and the student, and you can just hope that it's going in the right direction. (That it's not the whacky and dumb variety).

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#2010602 - 01/07/13 01:31 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: ando]
pianoloverus Offline
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Originally Posted By: ando
I'm not specifically commenting on the validity of this technique, only that I see some discrepancy between the stated aims and what is actually happening. I feel that you are having to be quite generous in giving this the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, I don't think this process has been well explained - nor the evidence compelling enough to be championing it as strongly as he is.
There is a huge discrepancy between both the stated aims and the position of his hands in the demonstration video when he stops to show his hand and finger position compared to how he actually plays the scales in all the videos.

When he plays scales his fingers are nowhere near straight, in fact they are curved and only his finger tip is straight. Nor are the fingers anywhere near vertical, they are curved. It's impossible to play scales with the fingers completely straight and vertical as he endlessly insists.

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#2010610 - 01/07/13 01:44 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: pianoloverus]
ando Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: ando
I'm not specifically commenting on the validity of this technique, only that I see some discrepancy between the stated aims and what is actually happening. I feel that you are having to be quite generous in giving this the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, I don't think this process has been well explained - nor the evidence compelling enough to be championing it as strongly as he is.
There is a huge discrepancy between both the stated aims and the position of his hands in the demonstration video when he stops to show his hand and finger position compared to how he actually plays the scales in all the videos.

When he plays scales his fingers are nowhere near straight, in fact they are curved and only his finger tip is straight. Nor are the fingers anywhere near vertical, they are curved. It's impossible to play scales with the fingers completely straight and vertical as he endlessly insists.


If you read any of my other posts, you will see that I said exactly the same thing!

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#2010616 - 01/07/13 02:00 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
maduro Offline
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hands separately
my fingers are pretty straight here
next video in 7 days

hands separately

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#2010620 - 01/07/13 02:03 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: keystring]
ando Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: ando

Maduro, I'm quite sure that you have included my posts in the "attacking" category, but if that's what you took out of it you are not listening properly. I am concerned with the fact that your videos don't seem to match what you describe as a stated aim of your new approach.

Ando, I'll address you as a teacher. I'm in a bit of an awkward position since I am at the same time a student getting basic technique - remediation, but I am also getting piano pedagogy along with my training. Since in my other work as a professional teacher (non-music) I've done remediation, worked outside the box, this all flows together, so pls bear with me.

Maduro is a student. His former teacher is the person who gave the instructions, and only she can know what the purpose was. The student might have been given a partial explanation about the purpose, which he may or may not have understood. There may be another purpose, and it could be part of a larger plan - we can't know that. So we should discount the purpose he describes. You should not make him accountable for proving a purpose which he probably doesn't understand. If you were to discuss purpose and method, you would have to discuss it with this teacher - whom we have no access to.

So the only thing we can really do is observe what is happening and what the student says he is experiencing. In the long run he should be working with a teacher in order to further direct this. Right now something cool has happened - he is using more than just his fingers. But how will it develop if left unguided?

I ran into "counterintuitive" and "indirect" some years ago as a student. Some things are not as they seem, or for what they seem to be for. (And some things that seem that way are in fact whacky and dumb.) When you have that, it's between the guiding teacher and the student, and you can just hope that it's going in the right direction. (That it's not the whacky and dumb variety).


I think you are missing my point, Keystring.

For the purposes of argument, I'm indifferent to whether Maduro has understood what the teacher wanted or not.

What it comes down to is this: a poster comes onto PW with a theory about an unorthodox technique, then proceeds to demonstrate it at slow speed with fairly straight and vertically oriented fingers, then outlines a plan to instil this into his technique with the aim of developing faster, more precise scale work.

Then, a second video appears playing scales at a much faster speed, but the straight/vertical fingered technique is no longer in evidence. It simply doesn't prove the point of the whole exercise.

I think we are talking past one another to a degree here. You are striving to find an explanation for the whole approach - and you may well be correct about its long-term plan and remedial capabilities. I'm not speculating as to what gave rise to this type of technique or whether it's remedial or not. I'm more interested in the discrepancy between the aims described and what I'm seeing in the videos. I feel some attempt should be made to unify this thing. Either by acknowledging that this technique is having some remedial value, or that Maduro is having trouble executing these scales with the level of straightness/verticalness that was aimed for. What doesn't wash with me is if he says, "here's a video of me playing fast scales with straight/vertical fingers", but then the video shows clearly curved fingers. That is a schism that can't be rationally accepted. Some sort of acknowledgement must be made about this discrepancy.

As a teacher, I'm well aware of the ideas in pedagogy concerning short, medium and long-term technique development and the value of not complicating things any more than necessary, whilst still ensuring that the necessary changes are made. I don't believe we are dealing with such a case for the simple reason that Maduro actually observed his past teacher using this unusual technique. He observed her doing it very well, and he heard her saying this is how he should try to do it. I'm choosing to give Maduro the credit of knowing what he saw and heard because if I don't do that, I would be speculating far too much. Generally adult students don't respond well to the concealment of purpose in exercises. They need to know the whole story before they'll buy into it. I believe Maduro has understood what was being presented to him, but is simply struggling to make it work in the way he saw it and how it was described to him.

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#2010622 - 01/07/13 02:09 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
ando Offline
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Originally Posted By: maduro
hands separately
my fingers are pretty straight here
next video in 7 days

hands separately


Ah, we have some progress now! I don't think it's working, mind you, but at least now we are seeing some visual evidence of the approach you are working on. This is exactly what I was hoping you would do - so thank-you. smile

I still don't think it's going to work - but at least you are testing the actual theory as described. The main issue seems to be that the thumb and 5th finger are so much shorter than the 2,3,4 fingers, so there is an awkward (mostly wrist) movement to compensate between the different lengths of certain fingers. I'll be interested to see if you can make progress with this.

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#2010628 - 01/07/13 02:15 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
keystring Offline
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I'm thinking mostly as a teacher here, even if I am not yet qualified to give piano playing advice. Even if I were, I would never do it on this medium in a public forum. But as a teacher I am more concerned about a student being guided, than correcting him on terminology and concepts which he cannot be expected to know. The most pressing thing on my mind is that this gentleman find and work with a good teacher, and that he will properly guided rather than misguided. I am relieved to see apparent improvement as far as I can tell, and that he hasn't injured himself. The rest of it doesn't seem important.

Meanwhile if you are the earlier ends of learning, you will often think you are doing one thing while you are doing another. As long as the student ends up in the right direction, it's all par for the course. I mean, you follow instructions that you understand well enough, your teacher is observing you and checking that it's going in the right direction. How you understand it intellectually matters less than that you are doing the right thing. Eventually, maybe years later, you may get, "Ah, so THAT's what my teacher was really doing with me back then!"

Quote:
What doesn't wash with me is if he says, "here's a video of me playing fast scales with straight/vertical fingers", but then the video shows clearly curved fingers. That is a schism that can't be rationally accepted.

Here's what makes sense to me. He had very curved fingers. When he tries to make them straight, he ends up having the right kind of curvature and relaxation, and motion in the rest of the arm. I happen to be following something similar .... NOT these instructions, you must understand .... and it is with understanding. When I "try" to keep my fingers straight, I am finally getting movement and ease in them. I know that the result will be curvature of a good kind, which comes about from my trying to make them straight. So reading a student explain these things and give these demonstrations make sense to me. If this is going where I think it might be going, then I'd think his teacher would say "Good, you've stopped the excessive curvature. Now here is what is really happening from what I told you to do."

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#2010631 - 01/07/13 02:18 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: keystring]
ando Offline
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I get what you are saying Keystring, and I don't necessarily disagree with it either. I think we just have a different approach to the thread itself! smile

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#2010632 - 01/07/13 02:19 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: ando]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: ando
I get what you are saying Keystring, and I don't necessarily disagree with it either. I think we just have a different approach to the thread itself! smile

Just what I was going to say. smile

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#2011063 - 01/08/13 08:34 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: ando]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: maduro
hands separately
my fingers are pretty straight here
next video in 7 days

hands separately


Ah, we have some progress now! I don't think it's working, mind you, but at least now we are seeing some visual evidence of the approach you are working on. This is exactly what I was hoping you would do - so thank-you. smile

I still don't think it's going to work - but at least you are testing the actual theory as described. The main issue seems to be that the thumb and 5th finger are so much shorter than the 2,3,4 fingers, so there is an awkward (mostly wrist) movement to compensate between the different lengths of certain fingers. I'll be interested to see if you can make progress with this.


I agree, and because of this extraneous movement, the scales are very uneven. I can wait another 7 days, but the jury is still out on this "technique".
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#2011110 - 01/08/13 10:36 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
pianoloverus Offline
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Originally Posted By: maduro
hands separately
my fingers are pretty straight here
next video in 7 days

hands separately
Absolutely disastrous scale playing. Uneven rhythmically and tonally and an obviously incredible amount of awkward movement every time he passes the thumb.

But besides all that he is not coming close to playing with straight fingers held vertically as he has been advocating since the beginning of the thread.

I wouldn't spend even a second more on this silliness.

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#2011114 - 01/08/13 10:39 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
maduro Offline
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Registered: 12/07/11
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LOL

you guys are that daft

uneven scale playing?

those are swung 8th notes
lol

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#2011134 - 01/08/13 11:27 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
GeorgeB Offline
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Even swung they are incredibly uneven. As in, a few notes are incredibly loud whilst others you can't listen to them.

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#2011166 - 01/08/13 12:28 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: GeorgeB]
maduro Offline
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see side view video link at the bottom of this post

I feel somewhat pressured to prove a system that I know is valid because I saw it executed when I was a student at a top conservatory with a graduate student of that top conservatory (Aaron Copland)
to people who are so much on a higher level than I am
I am an intermediate player at best. you are criticizing things that are normal when adopting a new technique

so you have to look at a few things
first my scales were garbage before I started see original video

second it is a very unfamiliar method that I am trying to retrain my fingers and hand too I havent done this since 2008

third
if I make mistakes a large part should be attributed to the performer (me) lets not blame the method technique hand shape whatever

that being said
here is another video from a different angle

Bear in mind my fingers are not as straight as I want them to be
the faster I play the sloppier the technique gets

this video is taken from the side at three speeds
the metronome is at 120bpm

there are some fudged notes at slow speed primarily the thumb because I just remembered today that she had me do this very exxagerated twist of the hand so the thumb would stand out almost like you were shaking someones hand upside down so some of the thumb mistakes is because of the over exxageration
i need a little more time with the technique
but those more objective viewers will have to acknowledge some improvement
over the very first video
where i compare my two methods
my scales have improved a lot over the past few days
some of you say it just my opinion

sideview




Edited by maduro (01/08/13 04:48 PM)

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#2011195 - 01/08/13 01:19 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
pianoloverus Offline
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"Swung eighths" or not the technique is clearly wrong and incorrectly described verbally in the extreme. It's not working at all and looks awkward and silly. None of the OP's descriptions of what he thinks he should be doing match what he actually is doing(which looks very bad also). Even what he is actually doing incredibly awkward, and completely unsuccessful.

But I'm sure he will continue to waste his time.

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#2011200 - 01/08/13 01:40 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: pianoloverus]
maduro Offline
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exploration is never wasted especially if it is done with good methodical observation.

I play in church every sunday and can instantly see what is going on with my technique
because I often have to improvise and create spontaneous embellishments

so trust me if what I am doing is not yielding results on sunday I will know it and make adjustments.

time will tell all

I am not claiming anything but just saying give me a chance to learn and develop it.

all you have said pianoloverus is how wrong
first you said it was impossible to play like that
now you say it looks silly and awkward
well no duh i am just learning to do it
but at least I have shown you it can be done and at a decent tempo
and you say i am not doing what I described
I am doing exactly what I said my fingers are straight like posts standing on the keys

(did you think i meant I keep them straight?)
I mean they are straight when they depress the keys


but to be honest it doesent feel all that awkward

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#2011262 - 01/08/13 03:49 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
Kreisler Offline



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Posts: 13764
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Here's the question in my mind - what is the purpose of the extremely high wrist and vertical hand?

Obviously, it's impractical to actually perform with that kind of hand position - it would make simple chords, octaves, and extensions impossible in context. So...what do you take away from practicing in that manner that you can use in performance?
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#2011321 - 01/08/13 04:46 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: Kreisler]
maduro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
as far as I can tell from practicing and remembering that my teachers main thing once I had it fairly correct slowly was to have me play as rapidly as possible

in retrospect and after reading keystrings post and a couple of others

it seems that the hand has no choice but to relax back to a normal position
although still somewhat high no where near as high as what you see me doing.

I think that there are muscles that are being trained
and after remembering the upside down hand shake thing

I can see a lot of rolling going. on

so to sum it up

it is preparing the hand and wrist to move and be flexible
as well as the shoulder and forearm

but this is coming from the student and my own observations
of the practice.

sideview


Edited by maduro (01/08/13 04:49 PM)

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#2011341 - 01/08/13 04:57 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: Kreisler]
maduro Offline
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Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
I am watching my hand now and there is a lot of movement from above my wrist is rolling around now

I am not sure that my hand is supposed to be vertical but I am sure my fingers are supposed to be straight by the time the key gets to the bottom of the keybed

I think we just have to see what things happen to my technique as I continue to play with this thing

side view with lots of mistakes

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#2011342 - 01/08/13 04:59 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
maduro Offline
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Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
already as mentioned my hand has curved instead of curled fingers
a big plus already
there is a lot that is going in the past few days
so I am looking forward to further improvements

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#2011344 - 01/08/13 05:03 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11590
Loc: Canada
Maduro, what is your purpose in this thread? What are you trying to achieve with this thread and the posts?

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#2011354 - 01/08/13 05:24 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: keystring]
maduro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
the original purpose was to ask if anyone was familiar with such an application
of the straight fingers.

once no one knew of it or was familiar
and coupled with the gauntlets being thrown that this was an impossible method

I took up the challenge to say
i would try it for a month
and then come back to see if there was any improvement.

simply an experiment at this time.

if in fact there is improvement and some things going on
perhaps one day someone will say I know what that is

it is blah blah blah
or something like that

I would like to vindicate myself
so that I can walk away not feeling like a dope
which people like pianoloverus would have me believe.

really at this point I want to prove that there is something to this method

I was there with the teacher and I heard my scales improve under her teaching

I was with her for at least 3 months and already came to the table able to play
for goodness sake I am a church musician with multiple choirs under my belt
so I am no newbie.

so to sum it up

I just want to validate the technique or find some understanding as to its purpose
since no one knows I would like to find out.

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#2011372 - 01/08/13 06:12 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
if you can't play a scale that slow with the right notes and decent rhythmical accuracy and if you can't see that, then there is something wrong.

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#2011373 - 01/08/13 06:13 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19231
Loc: New York City
"No one knows" about this ridiculous secret technique. That in itself would make any reasonable person doubt it made sense. Unless. of course, the whole thread is trolling.


Edited by pianoloverus (01/08/13 07:11 PM)

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#2011374 - 01/08/13 06:14 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: pianoloverus]
maduro Offline
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Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
sigh

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#2011377 - 01/08/13 06:20 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
GeorgeB Offline
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Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
somebody should just post a video doing the exact same scale and that exact same speed but properly for the other person to realise.

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#2011603 - 01/09/13 08:23 AM finally the answer is emerging final video clip [Re: maduro]
maduro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
So guys it has been a long road with many horrible things thrown around

I never wavered and my tenacity has paid off

I think I am understanding both the reason for the straight fingers and why it is so effective

As I was trying to execute this "horrible looking technique
my wrists were high
because my muscles and tendons along the meta carpals were not strong or strengthened enough to be able to straighten my fingers without lifting my wrists high

pianoloverus was on me because my fingers werent straight but if they were not straight it is because my muscles were not strong enough to be straight.
this is important I never said that the wrists should be high i was aiming for straigher fingers which cause stretching along the fingers and hand

It also created resistance

my teachers encouragement when played scales in front of her was to straighten the fingers

why because it strengthens the fingers a lot
it also forces a stretch of the muscles and tendons
creating a more relaxed bridge eventually

while I was doing this exercise or experiment
I was trying to recapture the feelings and memories from those practice sessions.

I am now able to recapture at least a part of the essence of this method.
see :56-1:03
here you get an idea what it will look like after a few months of practice

straight fingers is a goal that can only be realized through much time with this method

the results are that the fingers are stretched and strong and the bridge is both supple and strong.
as your fingers become stretched the bridge will come down to a normal position
although the fingers still stretch out. and be able to reach the key bed from a higher height making it look rather strange to me

my fingers may not be completely straight while doing scales for some time
but the goal is there slow and fast practice
fast practice is essential with this method she constantly encouraged me to play to my limit.
once the accuracy was there. with the slow practice

I only apologize I could not render a better video example

final

I miss that woman and wherever she is I send her blessings

thank you all for participating in this experiment



Edited by maduro (01/09/13 08:27 AM)

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#2011612 - 01/09/13 08:47 AM Re: finally the answer is emerging final video clip [Re: maduro]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11475
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I see lots of tension in the thumb and pinky, the tone is uneven, with some notes not even being heard at times. Lots of extraneous finger movement when not pressing a key (lifting them way off the keys). And really what is important is the sound. Why do you make mistakes sometimes in playing a C major scale, one hand alone, one octave? The thumb crossing under sometimes missed the key, and like I said, some of the notes don't sound. These things should not be happening, I don't care what technique you play with. If it doesn't sound good, then whatever you're doing isn't working.

Please seek out a good teacher and submit yourself to what they have to teach over a period of years. This has been said time and again on this and other forums, and you are being belligerent in insisting that 1) you can teach yourself something you don't know how to do and 2) that you are improving. If you are happy, that is wonderful, but please understand if you were studying with a GOOD teacher, you would be much better.
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#2011632 - 01/09/13 09:31 AM Re: finally the answer is emerging final video clip [Re: Morodiene]
maduro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
beligerant is a pretty strong word

first of all I havent practiced in months I am rusty as heck just getting back on my game
second
I am an organist more than a pianist I played hammond organ in service
for the last 12 years the approaches are completely different
the piano is very precise where on the hammond the sloppiness adds to the performance further my playing is more about chordal melody playing
and so i rely more on chordal playing then scalar passages

now that I am playing more piano I am interested in getting back on my scales
were there mistakes sure there were mistakes but even when I had teachers
slow playing always revealed such weaknesses

moreover I am a gospel player who has spent most of his time in Db and Ab and Eb and Gb then I have in C
professor Austin from Queens borough community college music program
often stated that C was a harder key to play scalar because there were no reference points.


are there holes in my lawn yes

do I get paid to play every week
am I making a living yes I am do i need to grow
yes but I have come all this way with my ability to both read and improvise
and arrange and play both organ and piano and direct choirs and be payed for it enough to not have to work any other job

so if I am beligerant as you say it is because well
there are many teachers who cant do all that I can do.
many can play from the book but cant improvise
and many can improvise but cant read
many can do both but cant arrange
and play by ear.
since my paycheck relies more on the arranging and choir teaching
that is where my focus lies

but here is a sample of what this self taught musician does every sunday
amazing grace improvisation

will I look for a teacher
perhaps
I am not adverse to it
but right now
my priorities are teaching the choirs and doing nice arrangements.
for service

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#2011638 - 01/09/13 10:11 AM Re: finally the answer is emerging final video clip [Re: maduro]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11475
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: maduro
beligerant is a pretty strong word

first of all I havent practiced in months I am rusty as heck just getting back on my game
second
I am an organist more than a pianist I played hammond organ in service
for the last 12 years the approaches are completely different
the piano is very precise where on the hammond the sloppiness adds to the performance further my playing is more about chordal melody playing
and so i rely more on chordal playing then scalar passages

now that I am playing more piano I am interested in getting back on my scales
were there mistakes sure there were mistakes but even when I had teachers
slow playing always revealed such weaknesses

moreover I am a gospel player who has spent most of his time in Db and Ab and Eb and Gb then I have in C
professor Austin from Queens borough community college music program
often stated that C was a harder key to play scalar because there were no reference points.


are there holes in my lawn yes

do I get paid to play every week
am I making a living yes I am do i need to grow
yes but I have come all this way with my ability to both read and improvise
and arrange and play both organ and piano and direct choirs and be payed for it enough to not have to work any other job

so if I am beligerant as you say it is because well
there are many teachers who cant do all that I can do.
many can play from the book but cant improvise
and many can improvise but cant read
many can do both but cant arrange
and play by ear.
since my paycheck relies more on the arranging and choir teaching
that is where my focus lies

but here is a sample of what this self taught musician does every sunday
amazing grace improvisation

will I look for a teacher
perhaps
I am not adverse to it
but right now
my priorities are teaching the choirs and doing nice arrangements.
for service



You miss my point, as well as that of many of the other posters on this topic. It's not about justifying who you are and what you do for a living, etc. It's about the claims you made about this technique, and how that isn't showing in the results you've provided. Plain and simple.

You said if I do A then Z happens. So a challenge was made for you to put that in practice and see if it is true. Others said in order to get to Z, you'd need a teacher to guide you through it. You decided to go on your own to prove your claim. You did A, but Z clearly did not happen. This has nothing to do with what you do for a living, nor is anyone expecting concert pianist results. However, your results fell way short of your claim. That is my point.

edited to add: your claim was in regards to strictly playing scales on the piano, and not improvisation, playing organ, arrangements, or any other number of skills that are perfectly valid in their own right. My criticism therefore is not of anything else you do, but in reference to your claim about scales on the piano.


Edited by Morodiene (01/09/13 10:13 AM)
_________________________
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2011659 - 01/09/13 10:59 AM Re: finally the answer is emerging final video clip [Re: Morodiene]
maduro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
good point
so here are the scales
you tell me if you hear an improvement over the first video done on page one

8 scales 8 keys

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#2011677 - 01/09/13 11:51 AM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11590
Loc: Canada
nm


Edited by keystring (01/09/13 08:06 PM)

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#2011809 - 01/09/13 04:56 PM Re: finally the answer is emerging final video clip [Re: maduro]
swiss_boy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 13
Hi maduro,
I very much like your playing, it's full of soul.

Regards - Ernst


Edited by swiss_boy (01/09/13 04:56 PM)

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#2011843 - 01/09/13 06:09 PM Re: finally the answer is emerging final video clip [Re: swiss_boy]
pianoslacker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/12
Posts: 50
Originally Posted By: swiss_boy
Hi maduro,
I very much like your playing, it's full of soul.

Regards - Ernst


I agree. I like your music way better than I like your technical exercises, personally.

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#2011907 - 01/09/13 08:43 PM Re: is there a european technique difference with hand position [Re: maduro]
maduro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 276
So I signed up for piano lessons at a music school in my neighborhood
they are supposed to be pretty good with the relaxation thing.

so mr beligerant has decided maybe I need some help

thanks everyone

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