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#2004212 - 12/25/12 05:47 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: Acca]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2170
Loc: Sydney, Australia
David: Do you ever do very rapid AND soft trills? We have at least two people now that seem to think the repetition behaviour of the A.G is not ideal, so maybe there is something a bit awry.

FWIW, I am reasonably confident that I'm occasionally triggering double-escapement repeats on my Casio PX-330, although I should prove it by analysing the MIDI. I'm "only" playing pop at the moment, but I feel that the ability to do repeats for shallow returns is acting as a safety net on occasion. I.e - it's not as if I'm intentionally invoking that kind of repeat, but I think I do accidentally sometimes, and if I'm right, it means that my performances are slightly better than they would have been without it. (although of course if it didn't have double-escapement, Casio may well have positioned the top sensor a bit lower to compensate)

The other aspect is that I may have simply learnt the the minimum release distance, and adapted to it. If that is so, it means that I am sometimes playing with a bit less effort than I would have otherwise. (i.e - not lifting my fingers up as much)

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/25/12 05:54 AM)

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#2004219 - 12/25/12 07:02 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: Acca]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2170
Loc: Sydney, Australia
According to Touch and temporal behavior of grand piano actions the grand piano key has to be released about half way up before it can be repeated again:
Quote:

For a fast
repetition, the jack slides back under the roller when the key
is only released half-way, and the action is ready for another
stroke Askenfelt and Jansson, 1990b; Fletcher and Rossing,
1998, pp. 354–358.


My old Kawai MP9000 meets this spec, despite the fact it doesn't actually emulate "double-escapement". I.e - the damping point is positioned at half way.

BUT, according to this web page: http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/askenflt/timing.html the key only needs to be released A THIRD of the way up:
Quote:
In order to use the double-repetition feature, the key is let up only about a third of its travel after a stroke.


Confusion reigns.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/25/12 07:03 AM)

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#2004220 - 12/25/12 07:04 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: Acca]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Greg, I owned a GranTouch for 12 years and my N3 is two and half years old. I have never encountered anything where I thought the action was not behaving as I expected it to.

There are times when I have played something and a note didn't sound. I've experienced the same exact thing on an acoustic piano and each time that happens, and this happens very rarely, I assume the problem is with me and not the acoustic piano or my N3.

If there is an issue, it does not affect me and I'm assuming it wouldn't affect most of the posters here. This is a remarkably silent bunch in some respects. smile
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#2004224 - 12/25/12 07:30 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: Dave Horne]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3482
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Greg, I owned a GranTouch for 12 years and my N3 is two and half years old. I have never encountered anything where I thought the action was not behaving as I expected it to.

There are times when I have played something and a note didn't sound. I've experienced the same exact thing on an acoustic piano and each time that happens, and this happens very rarely, I assume the problem is with me and not the acoustic piano or my N3.

If there is an issue, it does not affect me and I'm assuming it wouldn't affect most of the posters here. This is a remarkably silent bunch in some respects. smile


It totally depends on the type of music you play, Dave. I have been working on some classical pieces that involve rapid, undamped repeats. I wouldn't want to try practising that on the AG. Even Cyprien Katsaris wasn't able to do rapid repeats very well when he was using two hands! That means the piano struggles in that department. On the other hand, when I play modern stuff and jazz, the AG is just fine. So it's horses for courses really. I suspect the reason you are so happy with your AG and unaffected by its shortcomings is because you play a certain style of music/technique that works well with it. If they had the repeat thing under control, I would definitely consider one for late night practice. I still think they are really slack on the tone quality too though. Sustain is poor, loops are audible. They could have invested much more into the sample size. Resonance is not great either. I'm sure each successive AG release will address one or more of these issues, but the real AG I'd like to own is still a few more generations away, I suspect.

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#2004226 - 12/25/12 07:34 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: Dave Horne]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 709
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2004228 - 12/25/12 07:47 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: Acca]
Acca Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/12
Posts: 67
Just found this thread...
Avantgrand action thread

Interesting that some advanced classical music players (fredericch for instance) have already encountered some of the limitations years ago. However, like I said before, I don't think it's a showstopper. I was just merely curious what the action differences were between the AG and a real grand.

But I am somewhat reassured that they still think it's a pretty good substitute for practicing. I am confused about comments that say they can't tell the difference between the AG and acoustic grands though... I'm pretty sure I would have been able to tell the difference purely on touch between those new Yamaha grands and the AGs, even blindfolded with no sound.

I think I will need to head into the store for another test... grin


Edited by Acca (12/25/12 09:16 AM)

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#2004232 - 12/25/12 08:04 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: 36251]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3482
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: 36251


Wouldn't that really be what you are doing? You are so defensive of your baby, you can't acknowledge its shortcomings. What is the point of a thread or a forum if we are only allowed to say things are great and there are no limitations to the player?

The AG has some strengths, but also some obvious weaknesses. The main reason people hold the AG to a high than average standard is because of what they cost and what they promise. I think it's fair enough to hold them to a very high standard. We do the same with the Roland V-piano.

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#2004258 - 12/25/12 10:43 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: ando]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 709
Originally Posted By: ando


Wouldn't that really be what you are doing? You are so defensive of your baby, you can't acknowledge its shortcomings. What is the point of a thread or a forum if we are only allowed to say things are great and there are no limitations to the player?
Hey give it a rest guy. Don't they have humor in Australia? I just thought it was time for some levity. Damn!

The AG is not my Monolith. I don't worship it or think it's replacing a grand piano. I wish Yamaha used as much memory as the best VST and was able to mimic every nuance of real grand action. I wish they used the action from a real 9' grand and sold it at their cost.

I'm glad I own a instrument that gets talked about more than politics and that I can add to the discussion first hand. And from what I've read here, more people think it's a better instrument for wood shedding than an upright. Although if someone wants to put on concerts in their house and can't fit a worthy grand, then of course, an upright makes more sense.

Do me a favor and just ignore my posts if you can't take a joke.
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#2004265 - 12/25/12 11:10 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: 36251]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3482
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: 36251

Do me a favor and just ignore my posts if you can't take a joke.



Sure thing buddy, you don't say much of any consequence anyway.

And yeah, you really sounded light-hearted in that last post...

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#2004266 - 12/25/12 11:12 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: 36251]
Acca Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/12
Posts: 67
Originally Posted By: 36251
For me the AG was going to be it, cause I wanted a grand action and I don't have the room. The sound had to have a minimum requirement that these videos helped me decide. I like the Randy Waldman ones which are the final set.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid53923107001


Very interesting series of videos, although the sound was terrible, very heavy distortion at high volumes, and they were doing something to the equalization, probably to optimize for the piano sound (but if so, why was the sound distorting??)

I found it interesting that one of them (Nicholas Pike) listened to the decay on the AG and concluded that there was no looping happening, yet it's obvious from spectral analysis that there is. Just goes to show, perception is never 100% accurate. But at the end of the day, if you think it sounds right to you, then it is right for you. (But others can still disagree, just like with any other subjective preferences.)

Of course, most relevant to our discussion here, Randy Waldman (the most impressive pianist of that bunch) picked up immediately that it was "sluggish on the repeateds" (although he was doing stacatto, full key release repeateds), and he also commented that the action was a little tight but was assured by the marketing guy it would loosen over time... Anyway he still seemed quite impressed.

Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: 36251

Do me a favor and just ignore my posts if you can't take a joke.



Sure thing buddy, you don't say much of any consequence anyway.


Geezus you guys lighten up ok? We are just trying to find out the facts about this piano so that some of us can make a purchase decision. There are going to be all kinds of opinions but there is no need for any of it to get personal. Do you chew someone's head off for liking strawberry ice cream if you personally don't?


Edited by Acca (12/25/12 11:18 AM)

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#2004267 - 12/25/12 11:23 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: Acca]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3482
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Acca


Geezus you guys lighten up ok? We are just trying to find out the facts about this piano so that some of us can make a purchase decision. There are going to be all kinds of opinions but there is no need for any of it to get personal. Do you chew someone's head off for liking strawberry ice cream if you personally don't?


I didn't mean to derail your thread, Acca. I was sticking to the discussion until that last post. So I apologise for that. I'll apologise to 36251 for that last crack too. Sorry 36251.

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#2004288 - 12/25/12 12:38 PM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: Acca]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Acca
I found it interesting that one of them (Nicholas Pike) listened to the decay on the AG and concluded that there was no looping happening, yet it's obvious from spectral analysis that there is. Just goes to show, perception is never 100% accurate. But at the end of the day, if you think it sounds right to you, then it is right for you. (But others can still disagree, just like with any other subjective preferences.)


Yeah, you know, looping isn't that easy for some people to hear. I, for example, can't really hear looping. I feel like I can very easily tell the difference between a crap sample and a good one, but as far as distinguishing a well-done looped sample from an unlooped one, I basically take dewster's word for it. In fact, I think I'm an anomaly in that I prefer a looped Yamaha decay to a synthesized SuperNatural (Roland) one. Different people are sensitive to different things, I guess.

When I was demoing the AG's in person I was actually reasonably happy with their sound. It might be the best onboard sound I've heard anywhere. I don't consider it up with VST's (which is where it could and one could argue should be) but in my opinion it's by no means poor.

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#2004291 - 12/25/12 12:51 PM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: Acca]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
My irritation is only with those who knit pick on issues they will never encounter in their playing. There are so many silent profiles that it is impossible to give any opinion relative weight.

But that is the joy of the internet ... and on that note, a Christmas carol from Tom Lehrer ...




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#2004311 - 12/25/12 02:08 PM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: Acca]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2170
Loc: Sydney, Australia
gvfarns: Regarding being able to "hear looping", note that you don't need to hear the detail of the loop in order to hear that the sound "is looped". If you notice that the timbre becomes sort of unnaturally static at a certain time after playing that note, but you can't hear any bothersome "warble", you are still hearing that the sound "is looped".

If the evolution of the note has a natural warble right from the outset (e.g due to a bit of unison detuning), and the loop is able to retain that same warble (but not the overall gradual mellowing of the timbre), that can be quite an acceptable outcome - not terribly bothersome at all, IMHO.

If OTOH the loop warble is obvious, and there was no such warble before the loop, that's a big no-no IMHO.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/25/12 02:11 PM)

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#2004324 - 12/25/12 03:10 PM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: Acca]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Makes sense to me.

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#2004502 - 12/26/12 08:07 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: gvfarns]
CarloPiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 153
.

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#2004915 - 12/27/12 12:08 PM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: ando]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4739
Originally Posted By: ando


It totally depends on the type of music you play, Dave. I have been working on some classical pieces that involve rapid, undamped repeats. I wouldn't want to try practising that on the AG. Even Cyprien Katsaris wasn't able to do rapid repeats very well when he was using two hands! That means the piano struggles in that department. On the other hand, when I play modern stuff and jazz, the AG is just fine. So it's horses for courses really. I suspect the reason you are so happy with your AG and unaffected by its shortcomings is because you play a certain style of music/technique that works well with it. If they had the repeat thing under control, I would definitely consider one for late night practice. I still think they are really slack on the tone quality too though. Sustain is poor, loops are audible. They could have invested much more into the sample size. Resonance is not great either. I'm sure each successive AG release will address one or more of these issues, but the real AG I'd like to own is still a few more generations away, I suspect.


+1
The AG initially feels great to play on, once you've adjusted to its rather heavy action, but you soon realize that its sound engine is no different to that of other Yamaha CLPs, with similarly restricted timbral, tonal and dynamic ranges. And its key action makes classical music that requires very fast and rapid key action and repeated notes (like Ravel's Gaspard and Alborada del gracioso and Scarlatti's Kk141 and some Liszt) impossible to execute properly at anything approaching decent tempi.

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#2004987 - 12/27/12 02:34 PM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: bennevis]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3482
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: bennevis

+1
The AG initially feels great to play on, once you've adjusted to its rather heavy action, but you soon realize that its sound engine is no different to that of other Yamaha CLPs, with similarly restricted timbral, tonal and dynamic ranges. And its key action makes classical music that requires very fast and rapid key action and repeated notes (like Ravel's Gaspard and Alborada del gracioso and Scarlatti's Kk141 and some Liszt) impossible to execute properly at anything approaching decent tempi.



I suspect the repeat speed issue on the AG is mostly to do with the sensor design. If they got the sensors worked out, it probably could do true rapid repeats. I say that because if it is a true Yamaha grand action with double escapement, there is no reason why it couldn't. I'm sure any of you AG owners could confirm that the action itself can do it by simply turning off the power and doing some really fast repeats without releasing the key more than 1/2 of its travel. If you can hear the hammers doing these repeats, then it's onto the sensors for the source of the problem.

It seems to me that to get the most out of a real acoustic action, the best solution would be to have pressure sensitive pads that the hammers hit. I'm sure there are associated difficulties and possibly reliability issues with this sort of technology, but I think that is the only way to truly get the control that a real action can get, with regard to repeats. This whole triple sensor thing still seems troublesome with regard to trying to couple it to a mechanical double-escapement action which works on a different principle.

If they could get the pressure sensitive pad thing going, it would be pretty easy to get the samples to trigger rapidly - all you would have to do is make sure there is no damping going on with these rapid repeats. For this to happen, there would still need to be some key position sensors so that it can mimic the dampers being on or off, or partially on. It's still a pretty big challenge. I think they will could there eventually with the AGs but they are still a few generations away. The repeats thing will only be solved if the demand from customers is there however, and going by the various threads on PW, I'm not sure it is. Most AG owners seem unconcerned with the repeating behaviour of their AG. It's hard to quantify whether more many more people would have bought an AG if this had been addressed. I am certainly one person who might consider it if it had been addressed - provided they also improved the resonance and sample size alongside it. They really need to move on to unlooped full-length samples to really make it for me - just like the current PC piano VSTs.

We'll see where it goes in the next 5 years or so. I certainly haven't given up on the AG concept eventually getting to the point where I might buy one. I hope it does.

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#2005071 - 12/27/12 05:01 PM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: bennevis]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2381
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: bennevis
but you soon realize that its sound engine is no different to that of other Yamaha CLPs, with similarly restricted timbral, tonal and dynamic ranges.


Completely wrong. The sound engine is nothing like the Clavinovas.
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#2005265 - 12/28/12 12:53 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: ando]
Kos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 77
Originally Posted By: ando

It seems to me that to get the most out of a real acoustic action, the best solution would be to have pressure sensitive pads that the hammers hit.

If I'm not mistaken, the only digital piano on the planet that uses pressure sensors is this thing. And it's not even out of the prototype stage yet. So as much as I'd love to see this technology introduced in more affordable models, I don't think it's gonna happen in our lifetime smile


Edited by Kos (12/28/12 03:45 AM)
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#2005302 - 12/28/12 03:35 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: gvfarns]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: ando
None of it rang true to me - comparing AGs to a relationship with a woman...please.


Well, you know, not all pianos are very responsive. Sometimes they are downright sluggish or don't have a lot of tonal color. And not all pianos can do rapid repeats, especially if the player is only mediocre. So...


The same can be said of some women - perhaps that's what he was driving at smile

I think it's striking how much better Yamaha could have done if only they had paired the action with a couple of really good (and huge) sample sets with more depth and sparkle.

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#2005347 - 12/28/12 07:49 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: EssBrace]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 709
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: bennevis
but you soon realize that its sound engine is no different to that of other Yamaha CLPs, with similarly restricted timbral, tonal and dynamic ranges.


Completely wrong. The sound engine is nothing like the Clavinovas.
What hasn't been discussed here is the technique Yamaha used to sample the AG. I'll differ to the experts here who can hear samples that have been stretched, but the method of sampling each note at four different spots and then having those samples reproduced by individual amps and speakers with low distortion must add to the sound of the AG. Either I've drank the punch or I do notice this as an improvement over other DP's. I never use headphones, so I'm always experiencing this and I think it's pretty damn good. That coupled with perfect tuning, and its action, has given me great inspiration and longer sessions when I practice.

I'm also saving at least $250 in tuning costs each year and I don't sweat the low humidity I can't control in the winter even with a humidifier. (I used to worry to much in winter, when I owned my Steinway.) I also have taken back some space in my small house, since the N2 has a smaller footprint.

Sure, it's far from perfect and agree with owners who have lived with their AG everyday and still find fault. I do still question the comments of those naysayers who only gave the AG a few hours in a music store and think they are now qualified on the subject.
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#2005358 - 12/28/12 08:16 AM Re: Extensive testing of Avantgrands [Re: 36251]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4739
Originally Posted By: 36251
What hasn't been discussed here is the technique Yamaha used to sample the AG. I'll differ to the experts here who can hear samples that have been stretched, but the method of sampling each note at four different spots and then having those samples reproduced by individual amps and speakers with low distortion must add to the sound of the AG. Either I've drank the punch or I do notice this as an improvement over other DP's. I never use headphones, so I'm always experiencing this and I think it's pretty damn good. That coupled with perfect tuning, and its action, has given me great inspiration and longer sessions when I practice.

I'm also saving at least $250 in tuning costs each year and I don't sweat the low humidity I can't control in the winter even with a humidifier. (I used to worry to much in winter, when I owned my Steinway.) I also have taken back some space in my small house, since the N2 has a smaller footprint.

Sure, it's far from perfect and agree with owners who have lived with their AG everyday and still find fault. I do still question the comments of those naysayers who only gave the AG a few hours in a music store and think they are now qualified on the subject.



I mentioned several times before that I believe the only way to hear any DP's inherent sound picture is to use your own headphones, not the DP's speakers, and that's the way I tested all DPs when looking for my own. The N3 sounds better than the N1 because of its great speaker system, and certainly miles better than any other Yamaha DP - again because of its speakers. It's only when you use your own headphones that you realize that it sounds no different to the CLPs, and that's when playing one immediately after the other. Of course, that's just my opinion from several repeated playings in the DP store over the past two years or so.

But if you only use the AG using its speakers, then you'll likely think the extra cost is worth it. From my experience, many DPs from several companies would benefit from better speakers, but of course there's the cost and bulk factor involved......

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