Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2004494 - 12/26/12 07:28 AM Performance when recording . . .
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3524
Loc: Northern England.
Good grief! What comes out is what goes in. You work out a song, all the bits that make it up. How many darned times d`ya have to play it before ya get it right? Right speed, right notes (played in roughly the right order lol) and overall effect, before it comes good?

Truth is, I`ve never managed it yet. Long ones (over 3 mins or so) would require a split rercording . . .

Sleepless nights are my lot; yer head`s on red alert for hours . . . Time to go back to playing with toy trains . . .

Or is this part o` the package? I enjoy it, but it`s HARD WORK!
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2004516 - 12/26/12 09:06 AM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: peterws]
Steve Chandler Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2726
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
LOL! I feel your pain. I presume you're aware that professional recordings these days almost always spliced together from multiple performances. It doesn't matter if you're talking classical or pop. I personally don't know if jazz recordings are typically spliced.

So tell us more about what you're trying to accomplish.

Top
#2004530 - 12/26/12 09:42 AM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: peterws]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
i too feel your sisyphean pain. none of my youtube recordings are to my satisfaction, but there comes a point at which i have a window of opportunity (usually sunday afternoon), the house is quiet, the piece is as polished as its going to get, the unisons have been tweaked, the recording gear is set up and the levels are set for the piece, and i do as many takes as possible before my brain turns to mush. then i pick one out of the litter and move on.

it's my belief that this exercise, especially done while working up a piece, is as valuable as having a teacher in that it forces one to really listen to what one is playing, and adjust (as best one can) accordingly. a trial by fire for sure.
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

Top
#2004543 - 12/26/12 10:53 AM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: Steve Chandler]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3861
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
[...] I presume you're aware that professional recordings these days almost always spliced together from multiple performances. [...]


That's how I do it, mostly. Although my good PW friend Carey is in Entheo's "multiple single takes, choose the best one" camp. Rachfan does it that way, too. Actually, probably *most* people who share recordings in Member Recordings do it that way because they are testing and/or demonstrating their performance skills, not their recording skills.

One thing that helped me a lot was to keep the microphones out and in place while I practiced, even if I wasn't recording. That way, when it came time to record, they were not a distraction, anymore. Another thing that has helped me is to simply record a lot. Sometimes I get good stuff on days when everything is going right, and I can share a "practice recording" that is one take, no splices. Other days, when things are not going as right, I learn that the piece is not nearly as ready as I thought! grin

To my way of thinking, though, whether or not to edit your recordings depends on your goals for your recordings. What are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to demonstrate your pianistic prowess to other fine pianists? Don't edit. Eat a banana and nail it the best you can on the first take and leave it alone for the ages. Are you trying to make recorded sound that will bear repeated listenings? I would say, consider editing, or those fluffs and bobbles will drive you crazy every time they come around on the track. In either case, you'll want to practice until you feel the piece is polished before you start your recording session. (Unless, that is, you are recording your practice session! wink )

I make a distinction between "a recording of a live performance" and "recording art." I have plenty of opportunity to practice playing well, live, in performance mode, in front of an audience (church, senior centers, hospitals). When I decide to make a recording and a little homemade CD for family and friends, I go into "recording art" mode to make the best sound that I am capable of making with the instrument and tools at my disposal, striving to ensure that beauty of some sort comes out of whatever equipment it is that people will be listening through. That includes making sure that the piano is as in tune as it can get, and also turning off the refrigerator, unplugging the phone, and kicking everyone out the house so it will be as quiet as possible in the background. I've been doing this for a little over three years, now, since I decided to get back to the piano seriously after a LONG time away from it. Since joining Pianoworld and sharing recordings in Member Recordings, my playing is improving (I think--at least I'm a lot more comfortable sitting down to play for people) and I choose to edit much less frequently. (Actually, giving myself permission to edit was a big help in my trip to the piano bench to play in front of people. Allowing myself to edit my recordings helped me to relax when I played and practiced at home, allowed me to hear the piece in "assessment mode" the way I wanted to hear it, causing me to concentrate differently when I went back to playing it live, etc., etc. It has been very helpful therapy for someone (me) who was terrified of ever making a mistake at the keyboard in front of people. Take that idea for what it is worth to you... I certainly don't recommend it for everybody, because different people need different coachings and scaffoldings.) I also learn something new about recording and editing each time I do it. When I edit, I edit to the point of "best I could do on a good day," trying not to go crazy with editing to the hilt. I mean, while I do the best I can when I play, it's still just me, and I play like I play, though I always want and try to play better.

--Andy


Edited by Cinnamonbear (12/26/12 11:01 AM)
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#2004553 - 12/26/12 11:34 AM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: peterws]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
good post andy.
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

Top
#2004561 - 12/26/12 11:56 AM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: peterws]
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4373
Loc: Jersey Shore
What I hate the most is that during a good recording, as I approach the end I get red dot fever and screw it up totally...crash and burn!

It's probably best to record every time you play, so it will become second nature.

I don't edit my recording to fix mistakes, it feels like cheating. I just edit to mix a better mic with video.

Top
#2004563 - 12/26/12 11:59 AM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: Steve Chandler]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10354
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
LOL! I feel your pain. I presume you're aware that professional recordings these days almost always spliced together from multiple performances.


That's why I usually prefer seeing live performances. You know you're not being partially fooled by superb recording technicians.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#2004569 - 12/26/12 12:15 PM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: Entheo]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6288
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Entheo
good post andy.

MOST EXCELLENT post Andy !!!!!! thumb
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2004572 - 12/26/12 12:21 PM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: peterws]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3547
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I try not to splice anymore. Once you start doing it, it can be very habit-forming. You start to get obsessive over every little detail and try to punch in and fix things. Eventually what you end up with is something that has no obvious errors, but also no musical cohesion. I only allow myself one or two splices max - and that's over a 5-10 minute recording. Otherwise I just try to live with the continuous take I made. The reason I've moved away from splicing is because I think to really build technique and interpretative skill, you have to be able to keep your wits about you for the duration of the piece - that is, to take care of the technical requirements as well as the musical development over the length of the piece. It's very hard to do that from separate elements - although I can understand why commercial recordings end up doing that. If they release anything that contains errors they get canned for it.

A lot of inexperienced musicians without sufficient reliability in their playing end up convincing themselves that they can piece together a great performance by doing one section at a time. The problem with that is that the musical result is usually disappointing and it also doesn't encourage the development of your performance abilities. So whilst I won't say splices are evil and should be outlawed, I think they should be kept to the absolute minimum. If you need more than a couple of splices for a recording, you probably aren't really ready to record that piece.

Top
#2004574 - 12/26/12 12:27 PM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: peterws]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5240
Loc: Europe
I had a recording session recently, with another pianist, playing my duets (for 4 hands...). There were 2 mics recording EVERYTHING at every time, and there were also 3 HD cameras capturing all visual elements at all times. I ended up with a total of around 30 GBs of data to put in my hard disks... brrr...

The works were a collection of seven works for 4 hands, of intermediate to quite advanced difficulty. But it was very fortunate that it was 7 works so each work was roughly 2 minutes long (at a total of almost 16 minutes of length).

The recording session was two hours and we've had plenty of practice before hand, arranging everything including the page turns and everything in between. It took us two hours and half roughly to finish off. Rehearsing for a couple of months every week together, studying alone, and recording one of the later practice sessions, as well as in midi format for close watching.

After the session and after the mixing and mastering I can tell you that from the 7 works the 5 went unedited, while the other two had minor edits. When I say minor edits I mean that I took two different takes of the same piece and combined them at a single place. So there's a single splice... Or three at most. That was all the editing that took... wink

This was done for professional reasons, both the video (I contemplated wearing makeup but found a way around that...) and of course the recording. So this is not your average youtube video, or recording (but the evidence and comments will show if we pulled it off professionally enough. I personally think so, but we'll see).

Still, one of the major problems I'm now facing is the editing of the videos, because I'm forced in the montage to cut away at the splice points of the audio, otherwise the video goes off sync with the recording... And this IS a nightmare...

________________________________

In any case I can say that 5/7 works got the last take from the whole lot. No. 6 of the works (titled 'Meteor fight') was definitely the most difficult and took around 10 takes to get two great ones (half of each).

In my mind, while recording, everything was heightened. From where my feet where, to where to put my hands (since it was video as well as audio), how to breath, how to NOT hit my feet on the ground, how to phrase better on a relatively unknown piano, etc.

EDIT: What Ando says!

And yes, great post Andy


Edited by Nikolas (12/26/12 12:28 PM)
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2004584 - 12/26/12 12:43 PM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: peterws]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13774
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Getting video to sync with audio shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Video editing software allows the audio track to remain separate from the video track. If you cut away for a montage, then you can come back to the video clip and re-align it with the existing audio.

The biggest problem people have with audio/video sync issues comes when you record the audio and video at different rates. Most video equipment assumes 48kHz, whereas a lot of people record audio at 44.1kHz (the standard set for CDs.)

If you record and edit everything at 48kHz, it's pretty easy to get the sync and audio/video splices clean. (It's just time consuming and you have to have decent editing software, but even something as basic as iMovie can handle most jobs.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

Top
#2004601 - 12/26/12 01:17 PM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: ando]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17930
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: ando
Once you start [splicing], [...]you start to get obsessive over every little detail [...]. Eventually what you end up with is something that has no obvious errors, but also no musical cohesion. [...]The reason I've moved away from splicing is because I think [...] you have to be able [...]to take care of the technical requirements as well as the musical development over the length of the piece. It's very hard to do that from separate elements[...].

A lot of inexperienced musicians[...]end up convincing themselves that they can piece together a great performance by doing one section at a time. The problem with that is that the musical result is usually disappointing and it also doesn't encourage the development of [...] performance abilities. [...]


ando : please forgive me for "butchering" much of your post. I think, though, that there is so much in it of value that I hope to have highlighted the most salient points by doing what I did.

These are excellent observations that bear repeating. Thanks!

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2004604 - 12/26/12 01:23 PM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: BruceD]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3547
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: BruceD


ando : please forgive me for "butchering" much of your post. I think, though, that there is so much in it of value that I hope to have highlighted the most salient points by doing what I did.

These are excellent observations that bear repeating. Thanks!

Regards,


No problem with the "butchering", Bruce. Glad you liked it! smile

Top
#2004610 - 12/26/12 01:29 PM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: Kreisler]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5240
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Getting video to sync with audio shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Video editing software allows the audio track to remain separate from the video track. If you cut away for a montage, then you can come back to the video clip and re-align it with the existing audio.

The biggest problem people have with audio/video sync issues comes when you record the audio and video at different rates. Most video equipment assumes 48kHz, whereas a lot of people record audio at 44.1kHz (the standard set for CDs.)

If you record and edit everything at 48kHz, it's pretty easy to get the sync and audio/video splices clean. (It's just time consuming and you have to have decent editing software, but even something as basic as iMovie can handle most jobs.)
True, but it's 3 cameras and plenty of takes to choose from, which means that it's very time consuming... And I have to switch video takes, when I switch audio takes (which come from a different recording material (eg. a seperate microphone setup)...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2004642 - 12/26/12 02:39 PM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: Steve Chandler]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3524
Loc: Northern England.
Hello Steve. I`ve read through these posts and am gobsmacked; my flabber is gasted. .. I mean, all I have to bother with, is the time the piano takes to record my song (after messing up)before I rerecord over it! About 5 seconds, which seems like an eternity.. . .then off I go again.

All I try to achieve is an atmosphere. It doesn`t have to be perfect; if other digital instruments are involved, it becomes easier because the piano base becomes less significant.

But piano on it`s own? That is the hard bit. I`ve been encouraged today, guys; - Thank you all!
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2004672 - 12/26/12 04:25 PM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: Nikolas]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3861
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
[...] EDIT: What Ando says!

And yes, great post Andy [...]


Thanks, friends! And guess what? I agree with Ando, too!!! laugh Great points! thumb

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#2004776 - 12/27/12 02:30 AM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: Nikolas]
suniil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 149
Loc: London
It is too easy these days to EDIT multiple angles and sync up with audio with tools like FCPX or similar, as long as everything is from same take (minor corrections can be made later stage)

Originally Posted By: Nikolas
True, but it's 3 cameras and plenty of takes to choose from, which means that it's very time consuming... And I have to switch video takes, when I switch audio takes (which come from a different recording material (eg. a seperate microphone setup)...


Edited by suniil (12/27/12 02:31 AM)

Top
#2004779 - 12/27/12 02:45 AM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: peterws]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5240
Loc: Europe
suniil: But exactly that's the issue I'm talking about. If I've spliced a track of 2 minutes three ways, this means that these are different takes... wink Thus the problem...

anyhow... I'll get on with editing and offer the results! wink
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2004786 - 12/27/12 03:30 AM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: peterws]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7784
I frequently edit the recordings I upload here, but not always. But I don't splice separate takes. I figured out a method for myself that originally was for dealing with page turns. It dawned on me that I could actually stop for the turn and then restart playing, and later simply delete the little break (along with the noise of the page being turned).

Then it further dawned on me that I could do something similar with mistakes that were too gruesome to leave in. I could just stop, then start playing again at some point before where the mistake occurred, and then later edit the whole mess out - the error, the pause to regroup, and whatever overlapping material there was. Works pretty well, although you can drive yourself crazy if you do it too frequently in the course of one piece.

Top
#2004886 - 12/27/12 10:50 AM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: peterws]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3861
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: peterws
[...] all I have to bother with, is the time the piano takes to record my song (after messing up)before I rerecord over it! [...]


It occurred to me after this post, peterws, that "recording" is not the issue, editing is not your concern, and you really haven't gotten your performance question answered. So, I have a different set of advice:

1) Make sure you are warmed up before you record--whatever "warmed up" means to you. I mean, have you ever sat down "cold" to a piano and absolutely nailed any piece besides chopsticks?

2) Run through your piece before you record, if that's how you operate--or not! smile Some people may run through the more challenging passages, leaps, or runs before a performance. Some even warm up using them. Other people refuse to play a performance piece (or pieces) at all prior to the performance on the day of the actual performance (PW member Pogorelich. comes to mind that way, and she's good!).

3) Remember your follow through. In other words, don't quit or let down until AFTER you've released the very last note of the piece. It goes without saying (so I'll say it) that concentration and focus are the critical ingredients. That means paying complete attention to what you are communicating, and what you mean to communicate, in each instant, and throughout the arc of the piece, without analyzing or assessing what you've just played while you are playing. I usually mess up right after thinking to myself, often in surprise, "Oh! This is going pretty well!..." Then... BLORP.

4) Remember that there is no such thing as a perfect performance. Even Beethoven said so. Finger bobbles are likely going to happen. The pros know. Now, I'm no "pro" by any stretch of even my own imagination (except during overwhelmingly powerful "Walter Mitty" reveries), but I've talked to a few about this experience: my finger bobbles during performance happen at times and in places where I've never bobbled before, while places that gave me trouble often pass by with no problems. They (the pros) say that this is common. (I have to assume that adrenaline, or something else about the performance soup, reveals weak spots in the piece that did not require as much practice as the trouble spots. (?)) If you do manage to play the whole piece cleanly, then you will likely be dissatisfied with some other aspect or nuance of your performance. The thing is, do the best you can and say what you mean to say. It is likely that, even with mistakes, your music was satisfying to the audience in some positive, disproportionate measure to your own negative, dissatisfied assessment of it! crazy grin

5) As much as it is in your power to do so, get good sleep the night before your performance. At least be rested and in a peaceful state of mind before you try to record.

Hope this helps!

--Andy


Edited by Cinnamonbear (12/27/12 11:05 AM)
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#2005304 - 12/28/12 03:53 AM Re: Performance when recording . . . [Re: Cinnamonbear]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3524
Loc: Northern England.
Thanks for that! Concentration is a disaster zone for me. It ain`t gonna change now. Sleep? 4 hours on a good night.

I guess I do OK all things considered . . .

Now. About the accompanying video. . . . Maybe that should be another posting.
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
139 registered (accordeur, Alpiano, *windowlicker*, 36251, 39 invisible), 1700 Guests and 22 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75921 Members
42 Forums
156894 Topics
2305280 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
melody first piece in schumann's album for the young
by hobby
25 minutes 35 seconds ago
Your favorite composer I may have never heard of??
by scottymike1965-purchaser@yahoo.com
26 minutes 7 seconds ago
Tablet setup for ultra portable rig
by Sand Tiger
28 minutes 22 seconds ago
the magic of Raymond Lewenthal
by Michael Sayers
54 minutes 50 seconds ago
Stabilise tuning on old grand
by michaelopolis
Today at 02:18 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission