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#2003180 - 12/22/12 05:17 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: pppat]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: pppat
Hi all,

I would call the masking effect of OnlyPure tuning a beat suppression. The beats are there, but at a noticeably lower level than in other tunings I've heard.

Bernhard does not really tune pure 3:1's. During the seminar (PTG K.C., 2011) he only used the spanner tool in setting the very first 12th, and then for a few troublesome intervals later on.

He finishes all unisons of a string first, then moves on to place one string of the next note in an optimal spot in relationship to the previously tuned open unison, and - very interesting - he often throws in a third note (previously tuned, open unison) for kind of a "second opinion".


Sounds like another flavor of the approach practiced by Virgil Smith . .. .
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#2003207 - 12/22/12 06:26 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: pppat]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 596
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: pppat
During the seminar (PTG K.C., 2011) he only used the spanner tool in setting the very first 12th, and then for a few troublesome intervals later on.

Hi Pat,

I'm glad you chimed in. I was at the Stopper seminar where he taught the aural sequence as well.

I must admit at that time my brain was a bit overwhelmed and the actual protocol of setting of the temperament somewhat, but not totally escapes me. I use the software to set it. Over the last couple of days, I've been looking at the chart he provided, trying to remember what he was doing. I'm still at a loss to remember clearly what he was doing. confused

A4-D3 forms the first defining P12,set with his 12th spanning gizmo(just a piece of wood shaped to hit the 12th simultaneously). Then as he moved through the sequence he broke it down into 2 parts:

part 1 moves from the original P12 by fifths and octaves when available till you reach G#3.

part 2 starts with D4 ( I assume??? taken as the 3rd note of the D3,D4.A4 3 note combination) and again moves through a 5th/octave sequence till it ends on D#.

Closing the temperament circle was not presented as as important as other temperament sequences..but I'm could be remembering this fuzzily.

My recollection, and this is the interesting part to me, and the part that I took to heart, is he used 3 note simultaneously sounded combinations to set a single string of each new note at its "quietest" spot in relation to the other 2 open unison notes of the 3 note combination. He definitely used this 3 note combination outside the temperament,but I think confused inside the temperament he used it as well to set each new note.

That technique was to set each new tone in the progression, notice the word set not check, but set each new note in relation to a 3 note simultaneously played combination. For example the 1st note in the sequence after the initial A4-D3 P12 as tuned open unisons was a single string of A3. This was set by playing the 3 notes A4,D3,A3 together, setting A3 in the place where the beat masking became apparent.

My recollection was that this 3 note tuning was the essence of the entire procedure...I think both inside and outside of the temperament. But!!!! I'd like to hear if that was your recollection, or what your recollection was...to see if I totally missed it.

Jim Ialeggio
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Jim Ialeggio
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#2003405 - 12/23/12 08:13 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7179
Loc: France
As long as close major harmony is good any method pushing the consonance at the 12 15 level is good.

"pure" does not mean the 3d partial line with the fundamental, but the mix of all partials are not producing noticeable beats.

as long as the 5ths are not beating audibly we are in the "pure" concept.

My brother (violonist, solist) temper his 5ths (less than piano tuners probably) for tone and justness reasons...


Edited by Kamin (12/23/12 08:14 AM)
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#2003692 - 12/23/12 10:13 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: jim ialeggio]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Hi Jim,

I think you're absolutely right on the money! smile Everything you write is the way I recollect it. Thank you for this, it also confirmed that I remember it right.

Bernhard told me in an e-mail this Fall that he's working on a book about the tuning and its theoretical background, and also that he would most likely include RBI checks, too, to help newcomers to the system get on the track more easily.


Edited by pppat (12/23/12 10:13 PM)
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#2003761 - 12/24/12 03:19 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: UnrightTooner]
Toni Goldener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 100
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner


.

What I have come up with is a sequence that fits within one pure 3:1 twelfth:

A4 to fork
D3 to A4
D4 to D3, check D4-A4
A3 to A4, check D3-A3, check A3-D4
E4 to A3, check E4-A4
G3 to D4, check D3-G3, check G3-E4 (first RBI check)
E3 to E4, check E3-A3
G4 to G3, check D4-G4

You now have an octave tuned for each of the 4 ladders for tuning sets of contiguous major thirds, if you are so inclined. Since I do not believe that CM3s are appropriate across or near a break I do not use them. Instead, from E3 I tune up by fifths and down by octaves always staying within the first pure twelfth that was tuned: D3-A4. The checks are similar to the checks in Dr. White's sequence only with more of them.



Thank you very much, I thought it must be somehow like you dircribed. To tune the contiguous thirds is not the problem, more to know, how this beat masking effect sounds and where it happens. confused sometimes I tune down in fifths and then check with the octave and the doudecime.
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#2004498 - 12/26/12 07:38 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Toni Goldener
...

Thank you very much, I thought it must be somehow like you dircribed. To tune the contiguous thirds is not the problem, more to know, how this beat masking effect sounds and where it happens. confused sometimes I tune down in fifths and then check with the octave and the doudecime.


Where does the beat masking effect happen? Why between your ears, of course!

I am not trying to be "smart". Bear with me a moment. The human mind looks for simularities and differences. When one thing is the same, or nearly the same, as something else the mind finds them to be more acceptable. That is why ET is percieved as being in-tune even though it can be argued that it is the most out-of-tune temperment.

I cannot speak for Mr. Stopper's tuning. I can only speak for a pure 12th tuning. When you tune pure 12ths, listen to the resulting 4ths and 5ths and octaves, and then compare them to others; any departure from a VERY strict ET becomes apparent and can be corrected. Consider the span of a twelfth and the most critical RBI test: the outside M6/inside M3 test. Of the twelve possible tests, a 12th spans eleven of them. There is no excuse for any variation from ET before expanding the temperment. (This is not to say that the outside/inside test must always produce equal beating intervals. Due to scaling breaks, I do not believe this is always possible. When tuning pure twelfths, the 5ths and octaves must take priority since they form an equal beating test for pure 12ths.)
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Part-Time Tuner
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#2004554 - 12/26/12 11:35 AM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: jim ialeggio]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 405
Loc: Boston, MA
Hey Jim,

Thanks for the best post on the Stopper temperament I've seen. It's really helpful and interesting to hear from people who were at his class.

It seems from what you wrote, that Bernhard's tuning is less about the 12th as an alignment point, but more as an additional external reference point to use 3-note combinations early on in the tuning?

Seems logical to me that this is the key to his tuning, as well as what I've found in any other great aural tuning.
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#2004581 - 12/26/12 12:36 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: jim ialeggio]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
...

A4-D3 forms the first defining P12

...

the 1st note in the sequence after the initial A4-D3 P12 as tuned open unisons was a single string of A3. This was set by playing the 3 notes A4,D3,A3 together, setting A3 in the place where the beat masking became apparent.

...


Has anyone else tried this? I have and I always end up with a beatless D3-A3 fifth. Much too wide to tune ET with. Or consider the "beat masking effect" if what we are looking for is the beat in the D3-A3 fifth to equal a beat in the A3-A4 octave. Well, regardless of where A3 is tuned, the 3:2 beating of the fifth will be at the same speed as the 2:1 beating of the octave when the 3:1 D3-A4 12th is pure.

But if what sounds "best" is actually tempered 5ths, 8ths and or 12ths then that's another story.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2004645 - 12/26/12 02:46 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Tunewerk]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 596
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk

It seems from what you wrote, that Bernhard's tuning is less about the 12th as an alignment point, but more as an additional external reference point to use 3-note combinations early on in the tuning?

Seems logical to me that this is the key to his tuning, as well as what I've found in any other great aural tuning.


Yeah...at least I'm approaching this from that standpoint as well.

Bill Bremmer has also been approaching this from a similar perspective. In an expanded version of his PTG Journal octave setting article he's been expanding the octaves with something he calls "tone clusters".

I believe he will be presenting a class at the nationals this year on these "tone clusters". He's written about them somewhere on this forum relatively recently, but I can't put my fingers on them right now (I think it was a "unison" tuning thread).

Both Bernard and Bill seemed to feel that once you get the idea down, checking the RBI's becomes relatively superflous, as they will be spot on.

Jim Ialeggio


Edited by jim ialeggio (12/26/12 02:47 PM)
Edit Reason: spelled my name wrong...duhh
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2004674 - 12/26/12 04:33 PM Re: Bernhard Stoppers temperament tuned aurally [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
From what I recall, Kent Swafford was a great proponent of Bernhard Stoppers tuning sequence, maybe he can shed some light on the matter, if you asked him nicely!?
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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