Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#2004805 - 12/27/12 06:27 AM What is your merit system? Are we materialistic?
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
I remember reading an interview, a teacher in Argentina was being interviewed and he was asked how does teaching music in Argentina differ to teaching music in the US? He answered very tactfully yet emphatically that he believe in the US and I'm sure he was referring to the rest of the western world, teachers are materialistic. Materialistic in the sense that we give students lollies and stickers rather than hugs and smiles. It's obvious he comes from a country were it is culturally acceptable for male teachers to be hugging students, but it made me think a lot.

As a novice teacher, even though I could get away with it - being female and all, I generally don't hug students. There are exceptions to this - e.g. before a recital one of my students ran up to me, she gave me a nervous hug. I give them high fives and stickers. The stickers are normally earned. If something is really hard to learn and really boring to learn (e.g. technique) I even said I'd get him/her a present if he/she can get it right. My mum who works in childcare went off at me, she told me that was a bribe and I felt bad for bribing the kid ... but I reasoned and said it was a reward, it was incentive, not blackmail.

Anyway, what is your merit system? Do you ever stop and wonder if it's bribery or materialistic at all?
_________________________
http://colouredsilence.wordpress.com/


Top
(ad) My Music Staff
Check out the new way to manage your music studio
#2004815 - 12/27/12 07:05 AM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Beth_Frances Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/12
Posts: 189
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
I give stickers, and kids love them. I've been thinking about this too. One of my students learns a few instruments (she has lessons in violin, flute, piano, african drumming and singing), and whilst piano gets 10 minutes a week look in on a good week, she tells me she regularly practices flute. This is because the flute teacher has a system where if they practice for 60 minutes a week (broken up however they like) they get a sticker, and once they get 20 stickers they get to choose a reward out of a box filled with trinketty items like pretty erasers etc. This sounds like not much financial outlay to get non-practicers to the piano bench. But then I wonder at the niggling details, like when you *know* the kid hasn't practiced but their parent has signed off that they have...

Top
#2004817 - 12/27/12 07:14 AM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Beth_Frances Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/12
Posts: 189
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Oh, and I hug kids, but only returning hugs, not intitiating them. I had a kid relay to me that her mother had said I "hug her too much" (this kid is EXCEPTIONALLY huggy, to the point of having made me uncomfortable numerous times, so it was one of those "say what?!" moments) which made me even more cautious with hugging kids. Some parents don't like it.

Top
#2004826 - 12/27/12 07:44 AM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3200
Loc: Virginia, USA
I wonder if there is a more direct difference in the timing of reward.

We all know it takes years of work for a rewarding level of skill to develop.

Weeks of work to earn a sticker. A perfect piece gets you a hug.

But the science tells us rewards become less effective after 0.8 seconds. Dog trainers have realized this, and the modern ones are doing amazing things with marker training, using a clicker or voice to reward the dog immediately on correct behavior or sometimes just a move in the direction of correct behavior, long before he could eat a treat.

Maybe the point of the Argentinian system is just that the smile or touch is instant rather than delayed.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2004836 - 12/27/12 08:29 AM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2542
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Positive reinforcer: a stimulus, presented contingently following a target behavior, which results in an increase in the rate, frequency, or intensity of the target behavior.

If stickers or hugs increase the behavior that you want, then they are reinforcers. Otherwise, they're just stickers and hugs.
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

Top
#2004848 - 12/27/12 09:04 AM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: malkin]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3200
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: malkin
Positive reinforcer: a stimulus, presented contingently following a target behavior, which results in an increase in the rate, frequency, or intensity of the target behavior.


I suspect that a significant component of master teachers is their unconscious reinforcement of precursors to the target behaviors.

I think Morodienne would call that Fractional Anticipatory Goal Response.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2004897 - 12/27/12 11:11 AM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
I have a big basket of stickers, but I so rarely use them. I have high expectations of my students, but because I lay them out in such a way that they can be successful, I can give them genuine positive reinforcement, and that is better than a sticker any day. They keep coming back to the piano because they can do what is asked, they feel successful and they can enjoy what they are doing -- get some kind of fulfillment. The real prize is the music. They get to make music.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

Top
#2004904 - 12/27/12 11:27 AM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Minniemay]
Peter K. Mose Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/06/12
Posts: 1350
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
They keep coming back to the piano because they can do what is asked, they feel successful and they can enjoy what they are doing -- get some kind of fulfillment. The real prize is the music. They get to make music.


Here in three sentences Minniemay has distilled a superb philosophy of piano teaching!

Top
#2004905 - 12/27/12 11:27 AM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
Food for thought. Why merit system at all?

Top
#2004906 - 12/27/12 11:30 AM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
MaggieGirl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 481
My daughter's teacher doesn't use stickers. She does "tell it like it is". If she does well in a lesson her teacher will say she did well. That means a lot to my daughter. When she has an off lesson her teacher will say so. My daughter is okay with that because she knows it was an off lesson as well. And that is motivational to do better the next week.

Top
#2004925 - 12/27/12 12:26 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: keystring]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5486
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: keystring
Food for thought. Why merit system at all?

It's not for everyone.

As private piano instructors, we get to pick and choose which method best suits each individual student.

For example, some kids thrive on exams. I send quite a few kids each year to take exams so that they'll feel like they're on the right track. On the other hand, there are kids who are not stimulated enough by exams, so they need higher, more difficult goals. Hence, festivals and competitions. And yet there are kids for whom even exams are too stressful, and they'll quit except that their folks won't let them. What would you do for this last group of kids?
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#2004959 - 12/27/12 01:34 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
All of these things are extrinsic. There is the wish to learn things because you want to learn them, master them, they intrigue you or whatever. In that case you focus is on the math, the playing, the piece or whatever. When we introduce external things, then the focus shifts away from the thing being learned. A little kid learning to walk who keeps getting up and falling down keeps at it because he wants to walk. Our praise and encouragement may keep him going, but his goal is walking.

Supposing that a student wants to learn to play the piano, and play music on the piano. That is not "passing exams", or "getting praise", or "getting a lollipop". Those are not his goals.

For the person who talked about the teacher saying that this was done well, and this needs work - If you are aiming to play the piano, then you need to know when you're going in the right direction, when you're going off track, and what you need to do to get there. This is a different kind of motivation. Merit things take away form that. And I do think that this kind of motivation is natural to children. Sometimes (often?) it's been taken away from them and then you need carrots.

Top
#2004970 - 12/27/12 01:51 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Our society is deploring the entitlement mentality, but we have created our own monster.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

Top
#2004973 - 12/27/12 02:05 PM What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Minniemay]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
. . . They keep coming back to the piano because they can do what is asked, they feel successful and they can enjoy what they are doing -- get some kind of fulfillment. The real prize is the music. They get to make music.

I believe this is true of those students, of any age, who are destined to become real players. The rest . . . ?

Nannerl Mozart’s reference to the Latin cultures of South America made me think of the Cuban pianist Ruben Gonzalez (Buena Vista Social Club). Here is a gentleman who, in recounting his childhood and learning to play the piano, mentioned that, only after he showed some talent in playing the piano, did his parents arrange for lessons. His parents, as I recall, were also musicians. Could this be important? First he showed he had talent and desire, and THEN was “rewarded” by lessons!

And how about this? (Again, Senõr Gonzalez’ own account): After seven or eight years of taking lessons, his teacher (finally) complimented him by saying that he had good potential, and that he should consider further study to become a professional player.

In his account of his childhood and adolescent learning of the piano, Senõr Gonzalez speaks of his hands, of the eventual purchase of that upright family piano (“I went crazy!”), and of his love for the sound of the music. Strangely absent from this recounting of those days are things like stickers, lollipops, hugs, tests, and competitions.

Personally, I am certain that ALL those rewards (stickers, lollipops, hugs, tests, and competitions) were there - he just neglected to mention them. After all, how else could he have achieved such mastery of the instrument?

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

Top
#2004977 - 12/27/12 02:10 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: LoPresti]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
I believe this is true of those students, of any age, who are destined to become real players. The rest . . . ?


But it's not. That's the thing. My students, by and large, are average.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

Top
#2004979 - 12/27/12 02:16 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Minniemay]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
I believe this is true of those students, of any age, who are destined to become real players. The rest . . . ?


But it's not. That's the thing. My students, by and large, are average.

Average students can become real players. I read the text differently. And the last omitted line as tongue in cheek.

Top
#2004980 - 12/27/12 02:20 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: keystring]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: keystring
All of these things are extrinsic. There is the wish to learn things because you want to learn them, master them, they intrigue you or whatever. In that case you focus is on the math, the playing, the piece or whatever. When we introduce external things, then the focus shifts away from the thing being learned. A little kid learning to walk who keeps getting up and falling down keeps at it because he wants to walk. Our praise and encouragement may keep him going, but his goal is walking.

Yes! Absolutely! And if the drive and desire "to walk" is not within us - either inherently, or by eventual strong inspiration - then we will only "walk" until the carrots run out, or until we find we no longer like carrots.

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

Top
#2004981 - 12/27/12 02:21 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
And I took it to mean professionals.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

Top
#2004988 - 12/27/12 02:34 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Minniemay]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
I believe this is true of those students, of any age, who are destined to become real players. The rest . . . ?

But it's not. That's the thing. My students, by and large, are average.

Well, maybe they are average, and maybe they are not. Only time will tell WHAT THEY BECOME. Meanwhile, they seem to be learning from their teacher that music, and the making of music, is its own reward. And, as your other post so aptly states, accomplishment carries with it its own reward too.

For me, when I played well, my ears were my reward. That was more than enough.
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

Top
#2005022 - 12/27/12 03:31 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Minniemay]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5486
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Our society is deploring the entitlement mentality, but we have created our own monster.

I blame the failing public school system.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#2005027 - 12/27/12 03:41 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2460
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart

As a novice teacher, even though I could get away with it - being female and all, I generally don't hug students.


Hi, you make me think of an anecdote. We had some visitors from Australia a few years ago. My daughter was a little baby, not even a toddler yet. My wife breast-fed the baby at the dinner table, and the Aussies were terribly ill at ease, excusing themselves and trying their best to look away, even the lady. Thinking back to that makes me laugh!

Personally, I cannot fathom the teaching of a musical instrument without a great deal of physical contact between the teacher and the student. A great deal of things can only be transmitted through physical contact. It is be a very intimate relationship, and must be founded on a profound trust.

Top
#2005028 - 12/27/12 03:43 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2460
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
he believe in the US and I'm sure he was referring to the rest of the western world


Just like to point out to our Austral lass that Argentina is part of the Western world!

Top
#2005047 - 12/27/12 04:16 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: LoPresti]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3200
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Originally Posted By: keystring
All of these things are extrinsic. There is the wish to learn things because you want to learn them, master them, they intrigue you or whatever. In that case you focus is on the math, the playing, the piece or whatever. When we introduce external things, then the focus shifts away from the thing being learned. A little kid learning to walk who keeps getting up and falling down keeps at it because he wants to walk. Our praise and encouragement may keep him going, but his goal is walking.

Yes! Absolutely! And if the drive and desire "to walk" is not within us - either inherently, or by eventual strong inspiration - then we will only "walk" until the carrots run out, or until we find we no longer like carrots.

Ed


That implies there is no value to music education. But think about it, the number of children desperately begging their parents for piano lessons is smaller than the actual number of children taking lessons. The normal piano student is one whose parent sent him, on the theory it was somehow good for him.

That child will not benefit from an internal reward system for some time, if ever. (just like math or chemistry)

I still think the concept of subtle shaping is underappreciated.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2005055 - 12/27/12 04:24 PM What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: AZNpiano]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Our society is deploring the entitlement mentality, but we have created our own monster.

I blame the failing public school system.

Here you go, AZN,

The (public) middle school that one of my granddaughters attends was faced with a problem. An unexpectedly high percentage of students were scoring "lower than average" on exams, and in their class studies in general. The school tried a few corrective measures over time, and the problem seemed to get worse. They employed technology, fully utilizing our vast communication network to post homework, for all parents to see (and use??) Things continued to decline, and now this "model" school began to come under the scrutiny of the State Education Department (read: the purse strings.) Obviously, drastic action was needed to reverse this trend.

As quickly as I am posting this note, a solution was devised and implemented! In a flash, kids that were not doing well were fine again. Those who were in danger of failing were now passing. Very few still carried around the stigma of failure. Administratively, the percentages were better than they had been in years. The school was “back on top”! And this absolutely brilliant magic wand? The school simply lowered the passing grade from 65% to 55%! Everybody’s happy.

But it does not end with the high schools! A local community ( 2-year ) college had a similar problem with testing. (You guessed it - they are a “public” institution too.) A distressing number of students were failing exams. Professors and instructors were beginning to look bad. The school’s “rating” was constantly slipping. Something had to be done. They are testing a solution (ironic use of the word) - an alternate method of taking, and grading, exams. It works this way: a student takes an exam in the classroom in the usual way. The exam gets graded by the professor in the usual way. If the student does not do as well as s/he would like, s/he may opt to re-take the exam on-line, at her/his leasure, and from the comfort of her/his own home. The on-line exam gets graded, and the student’s final mark for each exam is the BETTER -- not the average, and not the mean, and not a bending curve, the BETTER -- of her/his two grades. Exam grades are going up - everyone is happy.

I have to stop posting now. I have been busy teaching my dog to bark (with rewards!) He has already mastered going to the bathroom, and is showing marked improvement in wagging his tail . . .

Ed

_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

Top
#2005060 - 12/27/12 04:29 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: LoPresti]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: LoPresti

Yes! Absolutely! And if the drive and desire "to walk" is not within us - either inherently, or by eventual strong inspiration - then we will only "walk" until the carrots run out, or until we find we no longer like carrots.

The carrot removes the drive.

Top
#2005088 - 12/27/12 05:47 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1009
Loc: Irvine, CA
Not sure if this is considered "materialistic":
I have an easy button for my students to use.
Sometimes after we complete a not so easy passage, I will ask them if it is easy or difficult. If they answer easy, then I will let them push the easy button then we will laugh together. If they say not easy, then we will not push the button but play through it again.
Of course I won't ask every time, I only ask if I sense the student is struggling but still cooperative to complete the task.
Is this an okay reward or is this considered "bribe"?
_________________________
http://ezpiano.org
Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Watch the introduction video on YouTube
@ http://bit.ly/Ready123

Top
#2005142 - 12/27/12 07:45 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: landorrano]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5932
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Hi, you make me think of an anecdote. We had some visitors from Australia a few years ago. My daughter was a little baby, not even a toddler yet. My wife breast-fed the baby at the dinner table, and the Aussies were terribly ill at ease, excusing themselves and trying their best to look away, even the lady. Thinking back to that makes me laugh!
On the basis of my experience I'd say they're not typical.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#2005143 - 12/27/12 07:46 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: TimR]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Originally Posted By: keystring
All of these things are extrinsic. There is the wish to learn things because you want to learn them, master them, they intrigue you or whatever. In that case you focus is on the math, the playing, the piece or whatever. When we introduce external things, then the focus shifts away from the thing being learned. A little kid learning to walk who keeps getting up and falling down keeps at it because he wants to walk. Our praise and encouragement may keep him going, but his goal is walking.

Yes! Absolutely! And if the drive and desire "to walk" is not within us - either inherently, or by eventual strong inspiration - then we will only "walk" until the carrots run out, or until we find we no longer like carrots.

Ed

That implies there is no value to music education. . .

Hi Tim,

I have been back over KeyString's and my posts, several times, and I do not see where either of us dismiss any value of music education. In fact, both of us are avid advocates of competent, capable teachers personally imparting their knowledge and art.

If I have given the wrong impression, I certainly wish to correct the notion, post haste! Where do you see it?

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

Top
#2005158 - 12/27/12 08:28 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3200
Loc: Virginia, USA
Ed,
You implied that the only reward that should be used is the intrinsic reward of individually making music, and that use of what some would call bribery to shape behavior is a bad thing. Basically a student should make music because they feel the inner drive, and it shouldn't be corrupted with reward.

However, many of us feel that there is value in sitting through piano lessons, just as there is for math and chemistry, even if forced, even if bribed.

That's on a macro level.

On a micro level the really good teachers shape good behavior (posture, relaxation, tone, attentiveness, attitude, etc.) with their body language and nonverbal communications. This happens although they're unaware of it and maybe not sure how they're getting results; it happens for the precursors of these behaviors as well.

At least I think they do.

The neurolinguistic programming camp believes you can be much more efficient if you're aware and deliberate and communicating in "real time.' At least they did at one time, I'm not sure if they're around anymore. I've changed careers since then.


Edited by TimR (12/27/12 08:29 PM)
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2005201 - 12/27/12 09:40 PM Re: What is your merit system? Are we materialistic? [Re: TimR]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
I am suddenly totally confused. If there is a belief in intrinsic motivation, then this implies that "there is no value to music education"? How does one lead to the other. It's like:
A: We're running out of milk.
B: So rabbits don't have fur?
Poor example, but I'm saying that I don't get the connection.

I then had to look up "neurolinguistic programming". I read two long articles. What I sort of figured out is that they say people's real motives might ride under the surface, and you can tell what their real thoughts are according to the direction they glance with their eyes when asked leading questions. That's probably not what it is, but it's the only thing I managed to understand.

Something has gone quite astray. How does intrinsic motivation make music education have no value? How does neurolinguistic programming fit into this? I'm genuinely lost.

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >

Moderator:  Ken Knapp 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Has anyone tried out wireless USB hubs for software pianos?
by Allan W.
Today at 02:34 AM
What books do you use for teaching beginners?
by Daffodil
Today at 12:54 AM
Help buying digital piano for my son
by roomservicetaco
Yesterday at 11:54 PM
Headphone impedance for DP90se
by lunobili
Yesterday at 10:29 PM
A Simulation Investigating the Source of Inharmonicity
by PaintedPostDave
Yesterday at 10:18 PM
Who's Online
54 registered (BB Player, beet31425, Al LaPorte, ando, aesop, 11 invisible), 791 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76250 Members
42 Forums
157618 Topics
2315161 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission