Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2004921 - 12/27/12 12:16 PM problem with the bass string!
march Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Singapore
Hi Everyone,

Has anyone encountered this problem before? I just tuned a Yamaha U3 and the age is about 30 plus to 40 years old but the condition is still quite good. when i tuned one of the keys in the bass (double strings: one hammerhead strike 2 copper strings) with my Yamaha Scope in unison, they sound very out of tune. That's strange. It should sound in tune when tune in unison. As a result, i purposely tune the 2 strings at different pitch (e.g. 10 cents apart), they turn out sounding better. What's wrong with this? Is it something wrong with the string or could it be due to the age of the piano? I have come across another similar problem before.

What's the best way to settle this problem? smile

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#2004922 - 12/27/12 12:21 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: march

What's the best way to settle this problem? smile


Tune the bass strings by ear instead of machine.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

Top
#2004945 - 12/27/12 12:58 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
First of all, the hammer is probably hitting two separate "notes" which is making it sound that way. That needs to be fixed if that is the case. Possibly repinning or, possibly tightening and spacing the flange alone with filing the hammer once that is done.

2ndly, one should never tune pianos only using a machine. Your ears should be trained to be able to know what is right and what is wrong. In this case, apparently, you cannot tell the difference enough to know so, you trust the machine instead of your ears. IF, the hammer is hitting two different notes, that is, the string on the note next to it, and you tune that note to what the machine says when that is not really the problem, you are asking for a broken wire or a horribly out of tune piano.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#2004950 - 12/27/12 01:24 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
The bass strings may be coming close to the end of their life span, and the two strings are no longer sounding the same, i.e. their partial content is different. If you tune the fundamental to be in tune, the partials sound out of tune and vice versa. Probably time for new bass strings, all across the board, or at least both strings of the offending unison. No doubt it won't be long until other unisons follow suit.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

Top
#2004966 - 12/27/12 01:47 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: Supply]
Dan Casdorph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 354
Loc: Morgantown, West Virginia
Maybe one of the strings was replaced in the past instead of replacing both strings with a matched pair. I've seen this but you can usually see that one string is shinier than the other or the coil is ugly.
_________________________
Casdorph Piano Service
Morgantown, WV
www.casdorphpiano.com
All pianos are bald ones.

Top
#2005002 - 12/27/12 03:01 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3562
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT


2ndly, one should never tune pianos only using a machine. Your ears should be trained to be able to know what is right and what is wrong. In this case, apparently, you cannot tell the difference enough to know so, you trust the machine instead of your ears.

Jerry, I read this quite differently. It seems to me that the OP is trusting his ears and is just confused by his machine. He is trusting his ears enough to come up with an estimation that his machine is about 10cents off in the way it measures this note. Obviously there is some strange inharmonicity in one of these strings which the machine is measuring. But the OP certainly seems to be very able to hear where it should be and has corrected it thusly. He just seems to lack some confidence in disregarding the machine and trusting his judgement in the case of such anomalies.

Top
#2005031 - 12/27/12 03:48 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
HI Ando,

You could be right. smile I maybe mis-reading it. Tuning 2 strings 10 cents a part to make them match one another, is a very large difference. Either that decision is right, or, it is wrong. There is no gray area here.

I've encountered more than my fair share of false beats, strings that were mismatched and much more in the past 38 years of full time tuning.

In my opinion, if the OP could truly hear it with his ears, he would know the answer to the question. He would know if it was actually in tune or not without the machine or with guesswork.. It could still, possibly be something other than worn out wires etc. It could be a bobbling hammer or the one hammer could be hitting the wrong strings. We really don't know from here. smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#2005182 - 12/27/12 09:12 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1955
Loc: Philadelphia area
Could your scope be misreading the overtones? Often the etd's read the upper partials of the bass strings. A reading of 10% difference at the 3-4 partials of lower bass notes would not be a big surprise.

Top
#2005519 - 12/28/12 12:30 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2339
Loc: Lowell MA
Bass bridges are often notched so that the bass bichords have equal lengths.

Straight bass bridges, cut straight cause bichords to be slightly unequal in length.
We accept that on a great many pianos.

Yamaha, back in the time of the piano the OP mentions, notched the bass bridge such that it accentuated the unequal length of the bichords. These are problematic when tuning the bichords.
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

Top
#2006041 - 12/29/12 01:47 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
march Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Singapore
Thank you everyone for your opinions! It seems that the bass strings are having the same color without one looks shinier than the other and the hammer is striking at the correct strings. I guess it could be due to the strings itself. I have encountered another similar problem in an old piano and this does not happen to new pianos.

Top
#2006053 - 12/29/12 02:17 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

One of the strings could be a replacement string. If that is the case then you will never get them to tune up equally.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

Top
#2006075 - 12/29/12 03:21 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Dan, I was just thinking that exact same thing myself. Good thought! smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#2006109 - 12/29/12 04:18 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Agreed Jerry, I didn’t think of that until the OP mentioned the difference in colour of the two strings.

This was brought up by another Dan a few days back and we all missed it…here;

Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph
Maybe one of the strings was replaced in the past instead of replacing both strings with a matched pair. I've seen this but you can usually see that one string is shinier than the other or the coil is ugly.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

Top
#2006427 - 12/30/12 08:49 AM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
Yamaha bass strings are sounding dull and cardboard like (for lack of better term) often after only 5 years, I was told it possibly was due to their machine winding inclueding some sort of resin of the core.

Anyway trading them for a set of Hellerbass on a C5 C7 is a good idea and will allow for a nicer tone. (Thanks Gregor for your bankcheck !)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2009426 - 01/05/13 12:09 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 352
Loc: UK
Check to see if it is the last pair of strings on the base bridge. I have found and also read on Piano World that this is a problem site. I've even checked it on a brand new small piano and noticed same effect.
As mentioned make certain that the hammer is touching both strings at the same instant.

Top
#2009487 - 01/05/13 02:36 PM Re: problem with the bass string! [Re: march]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 327
Loc: Europe
Replace both strings and tune them aurally.

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
148 registered (*windowlicker*, AEMontoya, A Guy, accordeur, 35 invisible), 1332 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75984 Members
42 Forums
157149 Topics
2307966 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Roland RD 800 Dust Cover
by BarryDMD
15 minutes 29 seconds ago
OT - Technical help for recording Silent feature to laptop
by casinitaly
Today at 05:13 PM
College Audition Repertoire for Historical Performance
by Priima
Today at 04:53 PM
theme and variations trivia question
by beet31425
Today at 04:35 PM
1950s Zimmermann
by MaxR
Today at 02:17 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission