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Marketing driven companies can be good for shareholders, but I can't think of any instance in which they are good for consumers. Yamaha is a heavy marketing driven company. When you evaluate objectively their products you can see they are nothing special and innovation is seriously lacking.

That doesn't mean they don't have enthusiastic people working for them. Surely they have. It's just that probably they don't have enough weight in the company.

Also it doesn't mean that they don't have good products. And avant grand is probably one of them, it's just that if they weren't so much marketing driven surely we would have now a better product in the streets.

So, I would advise all the consumers to not believe in brochures and always evaluate the products with a cold mind.

And never side with the companies because they already have much power in the buyer-seller relationship. It's called marketing and don't underestimate it because it's really a powerful tool.

If more of us did that, we would have better products instead of better marketing.

Just my opinion..

EssBrace, I hope you don't mind me saying this (but I'm sure you do - you look out for every single post I write here and attack me at every opportunity), but I think you've got 'issues', as our American friends would say. (Think 'fixation', 'obsession', blah, blah, etc, etc...)

Where's your British sense of humour, and wit, and repartee, instead of all these intemperate lashing out whenever I post something here?

Mmmm. According to the DPBSD it seems superior to all reviewed clavinovas sound wise:

- Longer samples
- No visible or audible stretching.
- Velocity appears to be a smoothly blended multi-layer sample set.
- No audible velocity layer switching.
- Something like a velocity layer switch barely visible @ vel=78 (spectral pan view).

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1391594/Re:%20The%20DP%20BSD%20Project!.html#Post1391594

Pretty sure the AGs got a 4 channel sample set to make spatial positioning within the case better. So certainly better than the Clavinovas.

It's not very meaningful to say it's better than other digital pianos. That is very faint praise.

More relevant I think: How does it compare with any of the good piano libraries?

I agree that piano libraries are superior. I do love playing gigs with my Vintage D. But I do think it's only one piece of the puzzle. You still need the proper amplification and action to complete the effect.

IMO, Yamaha's plan was to combine all the parts to create their hybrid piano. Kind of like the great piano makers picking the proper wood, felt, etc. I do agree they held back on using full, non-stretched samples, not to mention that a Steinway sample would of been more desired, but I'm sure that was a business decision, so someone like myself will want the next incarnation of the AG.

I've been thinking of an analogy that might be of interest. I'm an avid car enthusiast and enjoy reading comparison reviews. Just because the BMW or the Audi wins doesn't make the 5th place winner, say the Lexus or Cadillac any less wonderful in real world driving. Maybe the AG would be 5th place in a comparison with the best VSTs but it's still pretty good and when used as designed with the proper four channel sound system, it might have some advantages.

EssBrace vs bennevis cage match piano playoff I'd pay to hear that. Happy New Year to all in this forum. I've been away far too long from the Internet in general and am just getting back into things now that I bought a new Ipad. Great little device. From reading this forum, I see sales of digital piano's have dropped and both Yamaha and Roland are draining money and probably restructuring their business models. I am hoping Roland and Yamaha have something new up their sleeves before this depression hurts them further. In my opinion, the music schools around the world are lacking in garnering the amount of musicians it once used to. An over abundance of kiddie style teenage bopper music and a hatred towards nothing old and classical is hurting the entire music equipment industry. At least the world didn't end on such a low note. Well, I wish everyone a Happy New Year and Happy Holidays. I will be singing wi Andrea Bocelli soon and hope to create some more music as well. I'll share it with all of you guys when I am able to. Now keep on supporting the instruments we all love and continue to make and play great music.

OT
There are some new entries on the iPad for piano software and synths etc. iPxxxx in fact, and the local College to me uses iPad exclusively to teach their studio, composition, music tech courses. No PC based VST thingies for them. I don't think the iPad offerings have caught up yet but they are quite usable and a lot cheaper.

But you only EVER post to praise the V-Piano and slag off the AvantGrand (as if for some reason your buying choices around your V-Piano are threatened by the AG's very existence - clearly YOU are the one with issues, not me). That's all you ever do. You don't like the fact that I'm waiting to point the truth out. Perhaps you'd like to explain to us all why you do it?

And let me remind you I readily and frequently point out the shortcomings of the AG (insufficient resonance, lack of sustain, looped decays) and the advantages/strengths of the V-Piano. My posts are informed by a very significant factor - I have owned both. Whilst I know I have been critical of the V-Piano's sound - and I absolutely stand by that criticism because it is not even close to what Roland promises - I ALWAYS state that it is the most dynamic and nuanced DP available. So there is more than a modicum of balance in what I write. Can you say the same?

Thanks for the info about the ipad apps. That's what is great about this forum. Sometimes help or advice comes in just because some folks care about letting others know. Both EssBrace and bennevis offer the same kind of advice and help to others in this forum and both are what makes this forum great. I do happen to disagree with EssBrace's findings about the V-Piano more since I also own one and have played the AG line as well. Overall, sound is a very difficult thing to judge. I happen to like the V-Piano's sound as well as that of my Clavinova CLP990. There is room for both depending what you are looking for. The AG series can be improved with longer samples and more tuning options like the V-Piano offers. The one thing I do like about the V-Piano are bennevis's wonderfully created patches which add life to the sound above the already good sound. It is a shame that the technology has not taken off as of yet and made its way into a cheaper version. I am hopeful that by next year, the supernatural piano gets an update to feature even more of the v-piano technology than it already does. As for Yamaha, I also want to see a better digital than its current flagship as well. One can only dream and wait for the future.

@Kona_V-Piano,

There appears to be some truth in what you say above in regards to popular music overtaking classical/jazz in particular, as today's youth really have no knowledge/understanding of any of these legendary musicians and music, from a nearly bygone age.

Some of the greatest music ever written came from the pens of composers no longer living:

Albeniz, Alkan, Bach, Barber, Bartok, Beethoven, Brahms, Chopin, Debussy, Faure, Gershwin, Granados, Grieg, Handel, Haydn, Joplin, Liszt, Mendelssohn, Mozart, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Ravel, Satie, Scarlatti, Schubert, Schumann, Sousa, Tchaikovsky, Wagner... and, many others.

I don't think that any of the stuff being "written" today can even be considered "music" as such since it appeals only to foolish young people who party all night long and blast this trash at eardrum damaging levels, and, ultimately end up losing their minds to drugs and alcohol addiction.

If this is where today's culture is at then the future of serious music may be in jeopardy.

This is a real tragedy as I see it.

I am not sure what to say about this. I love old and new music. One of my favorite "bands" at the moment is the UK based vocal ensemble Cardinall's Musick (link ) who perform music from the English renaissense period. Their music is very beautiful but also way different than more modern music such as Mozart, whom's music I like too. I think that if you were to play Mozart's music to an audience (in a church) let's say in 1512 they would probably think you were insane if you would call that music... I also happen to like "extreme" electronic music from today. I can't say which music is better. I also wish more people listened to old music but I understand that not all have the same taste.

Actually, I should clarify my comments above by saying that I am not against enjoying any kind or style of music however, it is the way in which irresponsible people handle their lives and music becomes just another addiction.

Music is not at fault here, it's just people that have no conscience.

"Kids having more kids" is one reason for this, in part.

No proper parenting as such for these "kids."

And, there are other factors involved.

If your meaning of 'balance' is when I agree with you about your dislike of the V-Piano's sound, than what you say is true. You keep saying that your posts are 'balanced' but what you really mean is that anybody who disagrees with you has cloth ears, because you're always right, which by inference means that everyone who doesn't 'hear' what you hear is wrong. And of course, you're always there at the ready, stalking me, fingers poised over the keyboard, waiting to point out the error of my ways - just look at your own posts, including the one above - you're the 'truth' and 'the light', and, er.... . And you haven't got issues?

Some of my posts which you leap on (like a carnivore on heat ) make no references whatsoever to the V-Piano or the AG - it's just you reading things into them, then accusing me of all sorts of wondrous things. (Read again your intemperate attack on me when I posted something about my wonderful, wonderful holiday with the Mayans ).

As I've said before frequently, I believe my own ears rather those of others, including any so-called 'experts' - including those from Roland (some of whom, including one or two demonstrating on Youtube, seem to me to have very limited experience of real pianos).

I've mentioned a VERY big criticism of the V-Piano many, many times, which I also happen to believe is the reason why it doesn't make big sales, which is that in its factory presets, it doesn't have the 'wow' factor in its sound - something that will induce a casual punter to keep playing, because it superficially plays and sounds like any other high-end DP costing a lot less. I've seen how most people try out DPs in stores, where there are often stacks of DPs piled high and squashed together in small spaces. They take one look at the price tag, sit down and play a few chords, and unless they can hear the difference immediately, lose interest unless the console has some diverting flashing lights to keep them occupied a bit longer. If the V-Piano has (even if only as its first preset) already been pre-tweaked to have increased sustain and resonances etc to acoustic grand levels, more people will be encouraged to explore further and realize where all the money has gone into, even if they haven't had much (if any) experience of real pianos and how they sound. The AG, of course, feels different immediately (especially if playing it immediately after a CLP), even if it doesn't sound different.

BTW, you'll have noticed that the vast majority of the criticisms of the AG in recent weeks aren't from yours truly (in fact, I only joined in the fray very late, after you, er, goaded me and I couldn't therefore resist )....or maybe you haven't, or thought that others were criticizing the AG under my malign influence (thought control, perhaps)?

P.S. Just discovered that you even managed to find me in the haystack in the Piano Forum (where I rarely post, and you'd never before engaged in...), just so that you could launch an attack on my opinion on someone. What was that about what I said about you stalking me and having 'issues'?

I think we can all (well, most of us ) agree on that both the V-Piano and the AvantGrand are flawed in several ways, yet they are the best alternatives available in the digital piano market. Personally I prefer AvantGrand, because I enjoy the most realistic tactile response possible from my DP.

This thread is no longer a discourse on pianos. It has become a clash of egos.

Ah, I see!

So to recap, you're saying your "VERY big criticism of the V-Piano" is just that it is much better than it at first seems. That's it!? Now your V-Piano criticism cupboard is bare? Yes, very balanced. I just love the way you've zeroed-in on that Achilles heel. Mmm, very insightful - (small pleading child's voice - "Mummy, I do criticise the V-Piano, honest. I always tell people how much better it is than they first think. And I stereotype the usual DP buyers as uninformed idiots that only like flashing lights. They're the ones who can't hear how much better the V-Piano is Mummy. It's not MY fault they're idiots. Like little brainless moths to a flame they only seem to buy Yamahas Mummy ).

And there you go again, pedalling the same LIE - that the AG just sounds like any other CLP. You know that is not the case - if indeed you've ever played the AG or a CLP. I'm amazed you can find the time what with all those lunchtime concerts with your "classical friends", the rabid gym work, the swimming with sharks, the mountaineering and exotic holidays. Not bad for a fantasist job-seeker from Wolverhampton! But of course you've dug yourself so deeply into your little trench that there is no way you can ever say anything positive about the AG now. Not without losing face. So all you can do is keep digging. Digging your lonely little trench. Praise of the V-Piano is one thing but consistently and constantly slagging off the AG doesn't make the V-Piano any better. Didn't anyone ever tell you that? Not even when your posts are strewn with smiley faces.

My "intemperate attack" on you and your wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful (pass the sick bag please) holiday with the Mayans was just humour. I mean, you did ask the other day for some of my "British sense of humour, wit and repartee" didn't you?

I've "never before engaged in" the Piano Forum? I read the Piano Forum most days and have made lots of contributions. Get your facts straight.

Wow!!!


P.S. Is Wolfhampton in Suffolk?