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#2005432 - 12/28/12 10:43 AM L'isle joyeuse
jackbirdy412 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 46
I'm learning this piece, and I'm currently trying to perfect these trills and demisemiquavers on the first page. This is for an LTCL exam I plan to take later this year, and I'm struggling with the speed of these few bars. Would it be considered acceptable to play the circled notes with the left hand, providing they are even? I've not seen any other pianists do it on Youtube recordings and I've not been able to ask my teacher.



Thanks smile
_________________________
Recent repertoire:
Albeniz - Triana
Schubert - Sonata D664
Bach - Prelude and Fugue no.12, Book II

Working on:
Debussy - L'isle joyeuse
Chopin - Scherzo No.3
Haydn - Sonata Hob.XVI:52
Scarlatti - K426 and K427

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#2005462 - 12/28/12 11:24 AM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
IMO just about anything is 'acceptable,' but I don't think that's good, because it would make you tend to stress those notes more than you want to, and the notes you want to stress most are the ones after them. I know that you could say you'd make sure it comes out right, but if you do it that way, you're making it very hard on yourself musically and I think it would be very likely to fail you, especially in a pressure situation. If anything, better (or less bad) to take those next notes with the left hand, although I wouldn't recommend that either (awkward among other things). Best of all: Work more and better on playing the whole thing with the right hand. smile

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#2005482 - 12/28/12 11:48 AM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
P.S. Maybe to help you take it all with the RH:

What fingering have you been using on the D# and C#? (I mean in the riff, not the trills.) Have you been using 2? If so, try 3. If you've already been using 3, I'm not sure why this would be particularly hard for you, assuming you're OK for the rest of the piece.

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#2005490 - 12/28/12 11:56 AM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
maxmila Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 71
Not a good idea in my opinion, if only because a few pages later you have to play the very same RH figuration while the LH is busy with chords.

Edit: and again in the coda.


Edited by maxmila (12/28/12 11:58 AM)

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#2005495 - 12/28/12 12:01 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: maxmila]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
I forgot that!

But anyway, there are examples like that where we might get more creative in the fingering when the passage is all by itself, because it's more exposed. Also "because we can." smile
But I sure agree with you here.

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#2005502 - 12/28/12 12:09 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: Mark_C]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 553
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
P.S. Maybe to help you take it all with the RH:

What fingering have you been using on the D# and C#? (I mean in the riff, not the trills.) Have you been using 2? If so, try 3. If you've already been using 3, I'm not sure why this would be particularly hard for you, assuming you're OK for the rest of the piece.


I think you have to use 3 on those. The fingering I use is

35(trill) then 2 135 2 135 2 1235

Just hang in there. You'll get it.
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2005550 - 12/28/12 01:17 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
Aldous Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: jackbirdy412
I'm learning this piece, and I'm currently trying to perfect these trills and demisemiquavers on the first page. This is for an LTCL exam I plan to take later this year, and I'm struggling with the speed of these few bars. Would it be considered acceptable to play the circled notes with the left hand, providing they are even? I've not seen any other pianists do it on Youtube recordings and I've not been able to ask my teacher.



Thanks smile


Holy cow, jackbirdy, I think as many pianists use the LH second finger on the circled red C as not! I know I did. This piece is outrageously difficult to start, IMHO. When the flourish returns later in the piece, you can't use the LH, but by that time, you're into the piece and calmer. Plus, it's not NEARLY as exposed and sadistic as the opening!

I think using the LH in this opening cadenza also gives you the chance -- with anxiety breathing down your shorts -- to be a bit more expressive with this extra control available to you.

p.s. the teacher with whom I worked on this years ago was a Juilliard grad and studied the piece (and won some competitions using it) with Beveridge (sp?) Webster, who, as everyone knows, was a specialist in this repertoire. She used the LH on the C in the opening.


Edited by Aldous (12/28/12 01:20 PM)
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Ich grolle nicht.

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#2005560 - 12/28/12 01:25 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
jackbirdy412 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 46
Thanks for your replies. I would only have suggested using the LH here simply because it's a very exposed passage, and I can just about do it evenly with both hands, it sounds a little awkward with just the one. I'm trilling on 2 and 4 because even though my edition suggests trilling on 3 and 5 I simply can't do that fast enough and I don't want to make things unnecessarily difficult for myself.
I'll try using 3 on the D# and C#, the only reason this passage is difficult for me is because I'm trilling with 2 and 4 and so the only finger left for the C-natural is the thumb, and following that there's no fingers left for the remaining flourish.

When I play it using the left hand on the circled notes it's even throughout, and doesn't sound like those notes are accented. Of course, during a pressure situation it would be very easy for those notes to become accented if I wasn't paying attention or nerves had got the better of me.

Thanks for your help!
_________________________
Recent repertoire:
Albeniz - Triana
Schubert - Sonata D664
Bach - Prelude and Fugue no.12, Book II

Working on:
Debussy - L'isle joyeuse
Chopin - Scherzo No.3
Haydn - Sonata Hob.XVI:52
Scarlatti - K426 and K427

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#2005599 - 12/28/12 02:14 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
Aldous Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: jackbirdy412
I'm learning this piece, and I'm currently trying to perfect these trills and demisemiquavers on the first page. This is for an LTCL exam I plan to take later this year, and I'm struggling with the speed of these few bars. Would it be considered acceptable to play the circled notes with the left hand, providing they are even? I've not seen any other pianists do it on Youtube recordings and I've not been able to ask my teacher.



Thanks smile


I just noticed the OTHER circled red notes! You really don't need to use the LH on anything but the initial C. Good rotation makes the "riff" thereafter eminently pianistic.

I did the trill, btw, with 2/4, many use 2/3. I don't know anyone who uses 3/5.


Edited by Aldous (12/28/12 02:15 PM)
_________________________
Ich grolle nicht.

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#2005625 - 12/28/12 03:04 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
jackbirdy412 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 46
OK, so which fingerings would you suggest on the other notes that are highlighted? I was thinking that it should go either 2/4 or 3/4 on the trill, although I'll try 2/3, that may be better.
I'm leaning towards LH 2 on the C natural, RH 135 on the B, D# and G, then RH 2 on the B-flat, 135 on the A, C# and F, RH 2 again on the A-flat and then RH 1235 on the final G major arpeggio, although this feels incredibly awkward and cumbersome to get the 2 over each time.

Thanks for all your help!


Edited by jackbirdy412 (12/28/12 03:05 PM)
_________________________
Recent repertoire:
Albeniz - Triana
Schubert - Sonata D664
Bach - Prelude and Fugue no.12, Book II

Working on:
Debussy - L'isle joyeuse
Chopin - Scherzo No.3
Haydn - Sonata Hob.XVI:52
Scarlatti - K426 and K427

Top
#2005632 - 12/28/12 03:13 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: jackbirdy412
....I'm trilling on 2 and 4 because even though my edition suggests trilling on 3 and 5 I simply can't do that fast enough and I don't want to make things unnecessarily difficult for myself.

Of course! IMO 3-5 is completely and utterly ridiculous. I know that the people who do editions are supposedly experts, but.....all I can say is "but."
3-5 is completely ridiculous.

Quote:
I'll try using 3 on the D# and C#....

Oh OK -- so that means you WERE using 2?
That might well be your main problem with the passage.

But also....

Quote:
....the only reason this passage is difficult for me is because I'm trilling with 2 and 4 and so the only finger left for the C-natural is the thumb....

Not so! You can slide the 2nd finger onto the C.
And even if you use the thumb, which is what I would do anyway....

Quote:
....and following that there's no fingers left for the remaining flourish.

Sure there are!! You can easily 'slide' the thumb from C to B, especially because (IMO) the desired articulations leave plenty of time for it.

You've been making it harder than it really is with (a) a bad fingering, and (b) some wrong assumptions.

I'd bet you'll now be able to play it quite well pretty soon. smile

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#2005643 - 12/28/12 03:26 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
jackbirdy412 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 46
Thank you, Mark C - your fingering suggestions have already made this passage a thousand times better. I'm still deciding to use the LH finger 2 on the C natural immediately following the trill on 2/4, but with practice of the wrist rotation requiring the RH finger 2 to hit those notes coming back it should get much better.

Thanks also to everyone else, your advice has been most helpful. smile
_________________________
Recent repertoire:
Albeniz - Triana
Schubert - Sonata D664
Bach - Prelude and Fugue no.12, Book II

Working on:
Debussy - L'isle joyeuse
Chopin - Scherzo No.3
Haydn - Sonata Hob.XVI:52
Scarlatti - K426 and K427

Top
#2005660 - 12/28/12 04:20 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: Mark_C]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 553
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: jackbirdy412
....I'm trilling on 2 and 4 because even though my edition suggests trilling on 3 and 5 I simply can't do that fast enough and I don't want to make things unnecessarily difficult for myself.

Of course! IMO 3-5 is completely and utterly ridiculous. I know that the people who do editions are supposedly experts, but.....all I can say is "but."
3-5 is completely ridiculous.


I disagree. 35 isn't bad at all, but I suppose everyone's different. I use 35 and then switch to 4 on the last D#. I find that much easier than trying to use thumb on C and then 2 on B, but then again, I have big hands and fat fingers.
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2005666 - 12/28/12 04:35 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
Aldous Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: jackbirdy412
OK, so which fingerings would you suggest on the other notes that are highlighted? I was thinking that it should go either 2/4 or 3/4 on the trill, although I'll try 2/3, that may be better.
I'm leaning towards LH 2 on the C natural, RH 135 on the B, D# and G, then RH 2 on the B-flat, 135 on the A, C# and F, RH 2 again on the A-flat and then RH 1235 on the final G major arpeggio, although this feels incredibly awkward and cumbersome to get the 2 over each time.

Thanks for all your help!


Yes, that's what I think most people do. The RH 2 finger on those notes is followed by the RH thumb on A, then G, yes? Feel your wrist drop slightly on the RH rhumb notes, then raise the wrist to get the rest of the riff. It's right under your hand. Sort of an undulating motion, perceptible at a slow tempo, almost imperceptible at the fast tempo, with that final G-B-D-G a flourish almost that is tossed off in a lateral movement that feels effortless.

Hope this helps.
_________________________
Ich grolle nicht.

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#2005673 - 12/28/12 04:53 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: Aldous]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 553
Originally Posted By: Aldous
with that final G-B-D-G a flourish almost that is tossed off in a lateral movement that feels effortless.


D# wink
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2005695 - 12/28/12 05:24 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: DanS]
Aldous Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: DanS
Originally Posted By: Aldous
with that final G-B-D-G a flourish almost that is tossed off in a lateral movement that feels effortless.


D# wink


LOL! Right you are.
_________________________
Ich grolle nicht.

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#2005709 - 12/28/12 06:02 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: Aldous]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 553
Originally Posted By: Aldous
Originally Posted By: DanS
Originally Posted By: Aldous
with that final G-B-D-G a flourish almost that is tossed off in a lateral movement that feels effortless.


D# wink


LOL! Right you are.


It's an easy accidental to miss...this I know! grin
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2005785 - 12/28/12 09:07 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2137
Loc: Canada
I'm surprised you would need to use the left hand for this....I found a very comfortable fingering to be:

trill on 2-3, then 1-2-3-5-2 1-3-5-2 1-2-3-5

Though I guess you can also try trilling with 3-5 and following through with the same fingering.
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

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#2005796 - 12/28/12 09:48 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19263
Loc: New York City
I've heard this quite a few times in live concert and don't recall ever seeing any pianist use two hands on the passage in question. Of course, if they used thier LH just on the first C natural, I may have missed it.

When I've tried playing through this piece I used the fingering suggested by Kuanpiano which seems straightforward and doable.

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#2005823 - 12/28/12 11:52 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: DanS]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: DanS
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: jackbirdy412
....I'm trilling on 2 and 4 because even though my edition suggests trilling on 3 and 5 I simply can't do that fast enough and I don't want to make things unnecessarily difficult for myself.

Of course! IMO 3-5 is completely and utterly ridiculous. I know that the people who do editions are supposedly experts, but.....all I can say is "but."
3-5 is completely ridiculous.

I disagree. 35 isn't bad at all, but I suppose everyone's different. I use 35 and then switch to 4 on the last D#. I find that much easier than trying to use thumb on C and then 2 on B, but then again, I have big hands and fat fingers.

Impossible to know without hearing you, but I'd bet a few quarters that however well you play it using 3-5, you'd do a better job on it using 2-4.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#2005866 - 12/29/12 01:59 AM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
To trill or not to trill ... that is the question.

Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind
to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
or to take arms against a sea of troubles ...
and by opposing, end them.
(Guess who’s just been hamming Hamlet?)

I’ve just played the first 6 measures of the Debussy L’isle joyeuse (my French is rotten ... what’s CD talking about) ... but other than testing my loopy trilling skills ... can’t go into raptures over the Quasi una cadenza. (scrub round the fingering)

Must rather get back to hamming Clair de Lune.

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#2006055 - 12/29/12 02:18 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: Mark_C]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 553
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: DanS
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: jackbirdy412
....I'm trilling on 2 and 4 because even though my edition suggests trilling on 3 and 5 I simply can't do that fast enough and I don't want to make things unnecessarily difficult for myself.

Of course! IMO 3-5 is completely and utterly ridiculous. I know that the people who do editions are supposedly experts, but.....all I can say is "but."
3-5 is completely ridiculous.

I disagree. 35 isn't bad at all, but I suppose everyone's different. I use 35 and then switch to 4 on the last D#. I find that much easier than trying to use thumb on C and then 2 on B, but then again, I have big hands and fat fingers.

Impossible to know without hearing you, but I'd bet a few quarters that however well you play it using 3-5, you'd do a better job on it using 2-4.


Perhaps with some more practice. I remember trying out lots of different fingering with this one and settling with 35 because it was best way to keep a fluid wrist motion on the 1st augmented chord. Using 23 then 1 on C just didn't fit into my hand well. I'm sure I'll be dusting this one off one of these days, I'll have to give it some thought.


Edited by DanS (12/29/12 02:24 PM)
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2006067 - 12/29/12 03:03 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: DanS]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
What about articulation and brilliance?

While it's dangerous to say this about someone we don't know and have never heard, I'm going to stick my neck out and say there is no way you can do it as well with 3-5 as you could with 2-4.

Absolutely no way. smile

And even if you could (which you couldn't) grin 3-5 is unhealthier for the hand.

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#2006100 - 12/29/12 04:05 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: Kuanpiano]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
I'm surprised you would need to use the left hand for this....I found a very comfortable fingering to be:

trill on 2-3, then 1-2-3-5-2 1-3-5-2 1-2-3-5

Though I guess you can also try trilling with 3-5 and following through with the same fingering.


This is the best answer (imo).

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#2006256 - 12/29/12 09:21 PM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: Mark_C]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 553
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
What about articulation and brilliance?

While it's dangerous to say this about someone we don't know and have never heard, I'm going to stick my neck out and say there is no way you can do it as well with 3-5 as you could with 2-4.

Absolutely no way. smile

And even if you could (which you couldn't) grin 3-5 is unhealthier for the hand.


Well sure 23 is easier to control, but 35 works fine for me, although I'll admit it's a bit of a compromise. I'm not looking to continue that trill for very long, or to do a great big crescendo like this guy. That's just not subtle enough for my tastes...and besides, what are you going to do on the 3rd measure? 35 trill lets you play the wholetone run with just one cross over. 23 on that trill means two crossovers, or crossing 5 over 1 (which for me could really kill the smoothness of that run), or bringing in the LH.

Gees, with this discussing, I could have learned the trill with 45 in my LH! grin

Certainly some food for thought. I'm sure I'll be checking different things on this one next time I play it. I actually saw a guy playing the trill 2 handed. That's something I never would have considered, but whatever works... wink
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2006302 - 12/30/12 12:38 AM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: DanS]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: DanS
....I actually saw a guy playing the trill 2 handed....

Too brilliant. ha

Which gets to, the way we choose to finger/distribute the passage should ideally be related to how we think we want to play it -- i.e. concept and interpretation. I think discussions about fingering too often neglect that; it's as though it's purely a question of mechanics.

IMO if someone chooses "3-5" for the trill, it should mean that his concept is that the trill isn't to be played very brilliantly, also that he is wishing to develop tendonitis. grin

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#2006354 - 12/30/12 05:05 AM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7781
I'd consider using three fingers for the trill - 243424 or 242324. for example. Using that kind of trill helps the hand "flow" into what follows, I think.

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#2006358 - 12/30/12 05:18 AM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: wr]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: wr
I'd consider using three fingers for the trill - 243424 or 242324. for example. Using that kind of trill helps the hand "flow" into what follows, I think.

Many people seem to like multi-finger trills but I've never found them useful, and I would think they are least useful for brilliant-ish trills, which is how most people would probably want to play this.

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#2006393 - 12/30/12 07:25 AM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
SlatterFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 783
Loc: Brighton, UK
I find it fascinating to see how many different fingerings people use in this passage!

While the fingering suggested by Kuanpiano works fine for me, I feel slightly more comfortable playing the first note of the piece with 2 and then trilling with 13 before playing the following C natural with 2, leaving the repeating pattern 1352 for the next three beats. I tend to favour repeating patterns as easier for my brain and muscles to play and learn/retain, and also I find it slightly easier to increase the volume of the trill with 13 than 23.

It never would have occurred to me to use the LH here, and I agree with those who think it's better to find a workable solution using just the RH.
_________________________
Julian

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#2006480 - 12/30/12 10:33 AM Re: L'isle joyeuse [Re: jackbirdy412]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
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Loc: New York City
The only thing bad about some comments is the way some posters assume what doesn't work for them is inappropriate for others.

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