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#1693936 - 06/11/11 12:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
I was practicing it with Ab. I just used my Iphone App changes and that's what it had.

So what's your problem with non-functional harmony? Because it sounds negative? It's just a word. If someone said modal and non-modal, does that hurt your feelings? LOL.
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#1693953 - 06/11/11 01:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scotpgot Offline
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Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 129
Hi, I've been hanging around the piano teachers forum mostly, but I thought I'd introduce myself here.

I studied jazz in college (at IU) and have learned mostly from the David Baker/Aebersold methods/books. I guess they're a little passé now, but oh well. LOL.

I'm trying to get into playing again (as well as teaching a few students the basics). I imagine my posting will be an odd mix of offering and asking for advice. But I'm happy to find a thread where musicians can discuss the technical and other aspects of playing jazz!

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#1693971 - 06/11/11 03:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1371
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
You're very welcome scotpgot. David Baker's teachings will never go out of style. smile
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

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#1694020 - 06/11/11 07:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Yup - I can't imagine how David Baker would go out of style. My teacher studied with David Baker at IU for a little bit.
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#1694216 - 06/12/11 09:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1371
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
In the late 70's David Baker held a week long seminar here in Stockholm, it was 9 - 5 everyday.
He took us through arranging, harmony, improvisation, how to practise, how to teach - his energy was relentless.
Packed with Sweden's finest jazzers, he commenced to blow their collective minds with his concepts - and that jazz could actually be taught.
Apart from participating, I also had the job of transcribing the taped sessions, so I got to hear him several times.
He started off with: "the first rule is that there are no rules - the rest is practice practice practice and listen - listen a lot to music".

Amongst the sessions during the week he approached re-harmonizing by writing the melody of ATTYA (a collective gasp in the classroom - "a standard???!!??" "how dare he . . . !!??!!"
He then said "Ok, give me chord, any chord, any colour . . ."
Somebody said "A-major!"
"Ok, that makes it AMaj7 as the first chord"
He then proceeded to ask for chords, always altering them so they fit with the melody, until the whole tune was done. And then he played it - it was wild it was weird it was SO cool.

And then the 'mayhem' started " its not according to the rules" "it's not ehhh jazz" (somebody actually said) "its only an intellectual concept" bla bla bla and so on.

DB said "aha . . not jazz?" with a smile and then proceeded to blow us away improvising on the changes.

That week has stayed with me. So when I picked up the piano and started practising again seven years ago; DB's teachings sprung forth from somewhere within.

David Baker rules. smile
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#1694247 - 06/12/11 10:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scotpgot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 129
Ah, good to hear. Really, really good to hear.

During my time there, we were able to become friends, and I've kept in touch with him.

He's the only real, true genius (a word I hesitate to use ever when describing someone) I've ever known.

When I was going through his Improvisation book (again!) recently, I had to laugh. The first 4-6 pages are basically, "learn every chord, in every mode, in every key, starting on any note". A good year of practice in those first 4-6 pages. A lifetime to master the rest of the book.

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#1694369 - 06/12/11 02:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
AimeeO Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 803
Loc: New Orleans
Saw an article in the paper today and thought of ya'll..

http://www.nola.com/music/index.ssf/2011/06/music_lovers_learn_new_techniq.html

It's a yearly jazz camp, and they have a piano program.

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#1694424 - 06/12/11 04:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

So what's your problem with non-functional harmony? Because it sounds negative? It's just a word. If someone said modal and non-modal, does that hurt your feelings? LOL.


No, it hurts my sensibility of what the function of any harmony is. smile So to call something 'non'functioning, it implies that it doesn't serve a purpose, or doesn't work. What it doesn't do though, is fit simply into the classical theory of iis and Vs. But upon closer look at each chord those functions still exist, but sometimes at the same time (as in a V and a I), and then since it is harder to pinpoint their function (is it a V? is it a I?) they are labeled as non-functional.

So, for me at least, when I am progressing through learning how different composers from different eras use chords, I like to analyze how they arrived at certain chords, and if I called everything I didn't understand 'non-functional', then I would personally believe that I'd missed the point of how those chords were actually functioning. I'd also find it harder to learn the pieces, or to be able to solo intelligently over the changes.

Maybe later I'll acquiesce, or maybe even accept the term. But for now I'm on a little bit of a mission to get others to understand that maybe the term itself is non functioning.
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#1694658 - 06/12/11 11:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Scep, well I agree with you but since it's the standard terminology, I don't know what else to call it. My point though is that the tune does not have a ii-V cadence anywhere and with the bass pedal, really makes it more of a modal tune I suppose.

But Naima has a ethereal quality to it that just appeals to me. It is just hard though to come up with a "story" on the solo though (as with most modal tunes).
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#1694708 - 06/13/11 01:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
I'm going to call them poly-function chords, since that's what they really do.

As for the ii V cadence you're looking for, what else would you say is happening going towards the 4th bar, and the repeat of the same section at the end of the tune? Maybe not ii V as you might want to see it, but clearly, there is cadence material there wouldn't you say?
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#1694720 - 06/13/11 02:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Yeah but the Eb pedal does change the flavor. In fact the key changes so abrubtly there too so those factors make me think of it differently.

The way I want to play this tune is with a double time feel. Unfortunately, this is not possible with the standard changes on my Iphone app so I have to redo it. I have a hard time playing it as a ballad. So that's my first project is to redo the leadsheet for it.
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#1694998 - 06/13/11 02:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Yeah but the Eb pedal does change the flavor. In fact the key changes so abrubtly there too so those factors make me think of it differently.

Speaking of flavour, which you spelt wrong, by the way, wink , I liken poly-function chords to those types of foods that have quite complex flavours such as Mexican mole or many of the well made curries or satays from Malaysia or Thailand, not to mention great wines too. If you savour the little things that make up the whole of a piece the process becomes very interesting when attempting to play through a it.

I think it is when I saw the bass notes, harmony and melody as somehow independent of each other that I lost focus of how really they all contribute together to what gives each function it's purpose. By themselves bass and harmony could belong to a number of different tunes, but when considering melody the harmony is more defined by what it's role truly is. This is why I suggest 'poly' rather than 'non'functional. The complexity could be ignored, but at the risk of not really being able to play the tune as intended.

Also, like great chefs, I understand that great improvisors know how to change a tune in order to give it their own personality. But I also believe they have a deeper understanding of the 'essence' of a song, and can communicate that even if everything is reharmonized, the melody altered, and the bass notes abandoned. This is what I'm striving for as a musician. I'm a long way off, but I know where I'm going. smile
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#1695005 - 06/13/11 02:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Ok Mr. Canadian, you may or may not like the 'flavour' but you must at least admit that you SPELLED 'Spelt' in neither English or American style smile

Rather than talk in theory, perhaps, you we can discuss the essence of Naima so I have a better understanding of how to approach it. At the moment, I don't have that kind of understanding of the architecture of the tune yet. When I play it, I'm still focused on missing a repeat of the A section or forgetting to jump from the E7#11 to the Bmaj7.

Yesterday, I was asked to demonstrate Naima (it was a masterclass of some sort), and I wasn't comfortable doing it. And then I was asked to suddenly shift it to double time. Well with these unusual voicings, it was hard to make the quick jumps.

So at the moment I'm thinking more mechanically with this tune. The complexity of this reminds me of Nefertiti, although this tune is more melodic.
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#1695014 - 06/13/11 03:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Scep, specifically, I hear the bass pedal in my head and it seems like I'm just playing the RH solo without consideration of the bass pedal. Unfortunately, I have no backing track that makes that bass pedal clear so I can't analyze this in tempo.

Harmonically, I have the feeling that Eb needs to be addressed because its overtones suggest something else when played against the upper structures.

Later on in the last 2 chords of the B section, |AbMaj7 | Gb13|, the melody seems like it shouldn't fit the chord. For example, the Gb (b7) on AbMaj7. So on a solo I should be playing b7 on a major 7 chord? This type of stuff messes me up. Obviously the AbMaj7 has a different function, in which case, I might have to voice it differently too.

But it really sounds good when one expects dissonance. It's pure genius.

It's a little bit beyond me though and I'm rethinking playing this in a gig in a couple of weeks (unless I figure it out by then).
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#1695023 - 06/13/11 03:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> Later on in the last 2 chords of the B section, |AbMaj7 | Gb13|, the melody seems like it shouldn't fit the chord. For example, the Gb (b7) on AbMaj7.
I don't have my book here but are you sure it's not a G natural?

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#1695065 - 06/13/11 05:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1371
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Melody is a g (bar 7, B section)
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#1695075 - 06/13/11 05:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1371
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Interesting looking at (and playing) the RealBook version, I've always played it:


Only major 7ths except for a 7(b9). All triads.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

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https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#1695088 - 06/13/11 06:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Oh ok. I'm mixing it up with the A section.

I just saw the AbMaj7 as a Fm7 on another book.
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#1695289 - 06/14/11 04:33 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Jam Session tonight -- Here's a couple of recordings

This is a jam so we have a mix here, like a newbie trumpet player who we allow to play the head so he can participate. I have played neither of these tunes in a group before so it's interesting to see the dynamics that developed. You can hear the discussions.

This is RAW STUFF. Messy but fun at the same time.

Look of Love (Burt Bacarach)
http://www.box.net/shared/kkmuuza2lr023loxj66n

Pardon the guitar player plugged into my monitor and basically confusing me. So some of those wrong notes you hear are actually the guitar. He wasn't supposed to be playing.


Mr PC (John Coltrane)
http://www.box.net/shared/musahc62usb2ytkrehnp

This made me panic a little during the solo since it's the first time I've played at 200bpm live. It made me tense up and I repeated ideas and I was off the pocket there for a bit. Will do better next time. But listen to what happens with the rhythm section as everyone just let loose. Completely unplanned. It was great!
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#1695321 - 06/14/11 07:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2307
Loc: Sydney
Hey JW
I can hear exactly what you mean. In the Coltrane one, from 3:30 the drummer seemed to be a different person and let himself have fun which gave everyone else licence to go loose. It sounded like an awesome night.

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#1695412 - 06/14/11 11:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
JW,

Seems like you had some good fun.
How I do on tunes totally depends on the rhythm section that night. There are just combinations of bass + drums that work dynamite, and some that don't.

I've had a good 50 people come play at my house, I still don't know what the magic recipe is.

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#1695447 - 06/14/11 12:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
I know what the recipe is -- it's the bass player.

I have played with some of these people individually and the energy may not be there. I played with this drummer before and I've had difficulty even ending the tune, or he closes his eyes and there's no signalling.

But this bass player is the same one at my gigs. His goal is not to shine with his bass solos but to lay the most solid rhythm section there is.

When he yelled 'FUNK'! At the drummer, who responded immediately, he switched to a funk groove on the bass at the same time (yelled at the trumpet guy to hold on), and I knew what he was going to do so I switched comping immediately. I felt a little like Herbie Hancock! LOL.

Then the bass player and drummer were face to face signalling with body movements and I was staring at them too.

When you've got a bass player as a rhythm manager, I just have to think about the big picture. Even endings come without much discussion. A few hand signals or a good ear tells everyone what's up (if it's multiple tag endings).

I had an acoustic bass player also for part of the jam. I suppose it would have been impossible to come up with that groove on the acoustic.

We did Footprints, and I told the rhythm section to set up a groove, and they came up with an unusual 6/8 feel. I'm trying to get that recording so you can hear but it was difficult to play because it felt like an odd meter the way it was done. But it's a jam so this was the time to experiment.
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#1695494 - 06/14/11 01:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
I just listened to the other recordings (other players), and I noticed that the groove wasn't happening on any of them until I came on.

I think I allowed the bass/drummer a freedom that they didn't get with the other guys. I've been copying some of the better players and the less structured the plan is, the looser it becomes it seems.

On these tunes, I let them both figure out a groove first before I started. Seems to work.

So it looks like a specific interaction between the three of us. Not just bass + drums.
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#1699715 - 06/22/11 04:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Got another big gig on Friday. I've got multiple horn players so it's getting to be a really great sounding ensemble.

Now the tough part is that practically all the tunes I'm playing are new to me. I'm definitely going to play Naima. I've even been practicing Mr PC at 240bpm. Footprints in alternating jazz Waltz and funk. Recordame in uptempo latin. Multiple vocalist tunes that I don't even know the melody to.

Risky, I suppose to have few tunes that I know well, but I think that's part of what makes it exciting.

The most difficult in my mind is to play a reasonable version of Cantaloupe Island, ala Herbie. I've been practicing this so hard and I've given up syncopating with a funk style as I don't have that expertise. So we shall see what will happen.

I'm not too worried since I can always play my parts simply.

The good news is that with frequent jam sessions, I'm more inclined to have guts smile

And I have some great players backing me up so we should sound good and the crowd should be big as before. Shooting to beat the last bar record. We are alcohol salesman after all -- not musicians...

Anyway, I will record and maybe we'll see how badly I butcher Naima...
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#1699755 - 06/22/11 07:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scotpgot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 129
Good luck! Looking forward to hearing it...

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#1700013 - 06/22/11 03:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Have fun!!

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#1700016 - 06/22/11 03:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Thanks! In the meantime, anyone planning on posting some version of Naima?

Or anyone giving us an analysis of what's actually happening with it?
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#1700071 - 06/22/11 05:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scotpgot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 129
I would also like an analysis. I can't make heads nor tails. frown

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#1700092 - 06/22/11 06:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
I'm still trying to work out an arrangement for Naima. I've got the basic concept worked out but I'm still not happy with it. I'll try to record what I have so far and post it soon.

As far as analysis, here's how I'm thinking of it:

The first chord is Ebsus or the mode of Eb mixolydian.
Then Ebmin7, mode Eb dorian.
Over the B7b5 I'm thinking B lydian dominant.
And over the A7b5 an A half whole diminished.
Then the Abmaj7 is just Ab major.
The above is of course all over the Eb pedal so it's just modal I guess. No harmonic functions that I'm aware of.

Then the next section is all over a Bb pedal.
For the Bmaj7 I'm thinking Bb phrygian.
For the Bb7(b9) I like the F# harmonic major scale or Eb harmonic minor.
Over the E7#11 I like E half whole diminished, but I also play an F# in there... not sure what to call it then.
Then I have an Fmin7 which I just play F dorian over.
And for the Gb7, a Bb locrian.

I know that there are other ways of notating the chords for this so some of you may have different stuff. But I'm pretty sure the underlying modes should be mostly the same with maybe a few small changes. Anybody got anything different here? I'd be curious to compare.

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#1700273 - 06/23/11 01:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
I'm thinking this myself.

EbSus (but played as a Sus and no 3rd).
Eb-7 - Dorian
B7#11/Eb - I think of this as EbAlt, which then functions as a V chord back to the A7#11.

Then I look at |A7#11/Eb AbMaj7| as a V-I with a tritone sub on the V.


BMaj7 - I'm attacking this B Lydian
Then Bb7(b9) - I tried a couple of things here but lately, I've used Bb H-W Diminished. I guess this could be looked at as BAlt.

E7#11/Bb - don't know what I call what I do there. Probably a H-W diminished

AbMaj7/Bb - AbMaj
Gb13/Bb - What is this really? I'm confused with this. BbAlt? Functionally, then it would go nicely to serve as a V chord to the EbSus on top.


So simplified in my head functionally as:

EbSus
Eb-7
EbAlt

Eb7
AbMaj7(#11)

BMaj7
BAlt
..
EAlt
Bmaj7
Abmaj7
BbAlt

I can be persuaded to change some of this. It's my first pass at figuring it out.

Scott, it's pretty close to yours. But I'm just analyzing it in a way that understand the intent, which I understand as A section meandering through various qualities of Eb chords until it turns into a V chord and resolves to AbMaj.

B Section meanders into a chromatic movemement to and from B until it goes back to A. Pretty simplistic view here from my end.
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