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#2004687 - 12/26/12 05:38 PM cutting out piano keys and other questions.
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Through trial and error, i have not found a good way of cutting out even straight piano keys. Any suggestions? I am going to make a clavi- type insturment.
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#2004688 - 12/26/12 05:40 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
A good band saw with decent blade guides, a steady hand, and practice.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#2004700 - 12/26/12 06:40 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21587
Loc: Oakland
No matter what you use, you need to practice.

I have heard of a bowsaw blade with a right angle bend in it, so you can saw straight with the top portion, pull the bend through and saw perpendicular to the start of the cut with the bottom portion. That could saw the sharps.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2004717 - 12/26/12 08:47 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I have seen on of those saws at an organ building shop in Germany. An amazingly simple and clever solution to a century-old problem - cutting a 90 degree turn in the middle of a plank....
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#2004737 - 12/26/12 10:37 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
woodfab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 367
Loc: Stoneham, MA
Hello
In order for you to receive some realistic feed back we have to know what tools you have access to and more detail of what your trying to do.
A ruff sketch would help.
_________________________
Dan (Piano Tinkerer)

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#2004747 - 12/26/12 11:22 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
currently, i have a miter saw, coping saw, jig saw, and other various saws. I thought i could cut the front of the key before the accidentals as a section and the rest of the key and glue the two together. turns out the bond is very weak.
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#2004755 - 12/26/12 11:38 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5306
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: TecFlip
currently, i have a miter saw, coping saw, jig saw, and other various saws. I thought i could cut the front of the key before the accidentals as a section and the rest of the key and glue the two together. turns out the bond is very weak.

Typically -- in small shops, at least -- keys are cut out using a band saw of reasonable quality (and precisely adjusted). The ends of the sharps are cut with a thin and very sharp chisel (and a good whack with a suitable hammer).

And, as others have pointed out, a lot of practice. It's best to be experienced and skilled with the use of the tools you're going to use before you start cutting something like keys.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2004846 - 12/27/12 08:54 AM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7680
Loc: France
Ad don't do like a friend, he bored the balance on the plank, cut all his keys but forget to bore the balance rail at the same time than the keys...

He spend 15 days adjusting every key to the key frame and in the end they where not lining well....


Edited by Kamin (12/27/12 08:55 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2004852 - 12/27/12 09:12 AM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
bellspiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 507
Loc: Boston, MA
Not a good idea to cut and glue the keystick. You want one long integral piece so that there is leverage from finger press to actlion lift without any possibility of losing energy at a glue joint.
_________________________
Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA

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#2005239 - 12/27/12 10:59 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
How would i make those sharp 90 degree turns? It seems I may need extra space between accidentals and naturals when cutting. Also, how do I know where the balance pin holes on accidentals are placed. They are offset towards the back of the key, but how far back?
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#2005285 - 12/28/12 01:48 AM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21587
Loc: Oakland
You could start by reading all the messages here, but you really need some woodworking and mathematics instruction for this project.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2005289 - 12/28/12 02:15 AM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2401
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: TecFlip
How would i make those sharp 90 degree turns? It seems I may need extra space between accidentals and naturals when cutting. Also, how do I know where the balance pin holes on accidentals are placed. They are offset towards the back of the key, but how far back?


Best thing to do is find a decent working piano and reverse engineer it. Study the geometric relationships of the keys, the grain line on dog legged keys, pin locations ect.... Its pretty self explanatory and if you can't figure it out that way then vague instructions from fellow techs won't help you much either.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2005344 - 12/28/12 07:31 AM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7680
Loc: France
I have a study on pianos and other instruments keys, mostly from dimension side. In French..

A friend had to do that job to design a Vortzetser (automat to play keyboards)


Edited by Kamin (12/28/12 07:47 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2005351 - 12/28/12 08:06 AM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3207
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: TecFlip
I thought i could cut the front of the key before the accidentals as a section and the rest of the key and glue the two together. turns out the bond is very weak.


I'm not sure I'm picturing this correctly.

In my brain there are two ways to make a two piece key.

One is front to back. Cut a thick section that goes from the front to the sharp, cut a thin section that goes from sharp to fallboard, glue a butt joint. No way that is ever going to work.

Second is side by side. Cut a thin section that goes all the way back. Cut a second thin section that goes from front to the sharp. Glue a lap joint. I don't see any reason this shouldn't work, given decent glue and clamping.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2005401 - 12/28/12 10:09 AM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
A tad bit OT, but how do i upload pictures into the post?
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#2005500 - 12/28/12 12:09 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Now that is ONE frequently asked question. If I could explain it in one sentence I could, but it is a bit more involved. Check the FAQ...


Edited by Supply (12/28/12 12:10 PM)
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#2005507 - 12/28/12 12:14 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Gene Nelson Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1508
Loc: Old Hangtown California
I am going to make a clavi- type insturment.
___________________________________________________________________________________
Have you designed this insturment yet?
Seems to me that keys would be down the road a bit??
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

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#2005628 - 12/28/12 03:09 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I have made a whole octave-minus-a-note. It can be viewed here along with the way i made the two piece key.

http://funwithblender3d.weebly.com/clavi.html

You can see how the C, E, F, and B keys are smaller than the rest.


Edited by TecFlip (12/28/12 03:10 PM)
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

Top
#2005770 - 12/28/12 08:27 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2401
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: TecFlip
A tad bit OT, but how do i upload pictures into the post?


This is one easy way to do it. Go to this site....

tinypic.com

Clik the browse button and load the pic from your computer.
Clik the "upload" button.
Copy the "Image Code for Forums and Message boards" field and paste it in your posting. (It will have [IMG] at the start of it).
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2005801 - 12/28/12 10:23 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21587
Loc: Oakland
Or you can go to the Piano area and read the FAQs.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2006453 - 12/30/12 09:48 AM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3207
Loc: Virginia, USA
I like your tuning pin setup.

Wish we could retrofit that to a piano.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2006621 - 12/30/12 04:02 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TimR]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Originally Posted By: TimR
I like your tuning pin setup.

Wish we could retrofit that to a piano.

I got the idea from top tuners on an old grand I saw. The tuning is very stable.
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#2006960 - 12/31/12 09:58 AM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2111
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: TecFlip
Originally Posted By: TimR
I like your tuning pin setup.

Wish we could retrofit that to a piano.

I got the idea from top tuners on an old grand I saw. The tuning is very stable.
It's a rough remake of the Mason & Hamlin screwstringer.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2006968 - 12/31/12 10:15 AM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Silverwood Pianos Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4204
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada


Kind of like the Mason Hamlin but more the top tuner from J. Brinsmead. If tecflip installed two nuts on both sides of the plate the stem runs through, then the wire would not twist when tuning. Would need to make a tool to turn the outside nut….


Top tuner
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2007430 - 01/01/13 11:40 AM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
That was what I tried to re-create. I just couldn't find any bolts that were hollow all of the way through. Any clue how much they would be if I ordered them online?
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#2007594 - 01/01/13 05:51 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Silverwood Pianos Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4204
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Well, you’re almost there now. What you need to do is fit double nuts on both sides with a flat washer against both sides of the steel plate, so the nut will turn. Then drill out the plate slightly so the threads of the stem do not contact the plate.

What you want is the stem to travel because the nuts are drawing it one way or the other. By having the threads of the stem contact the plate the stem will turn causing the wire to twist.

Hollow rods that have exterior threads? Pull out your wallet I would think. You might get lucky with one of these places. They could have a smooth hollow rod that you can thread if you have a die set…

some links

http://makezine.com/pub/tool/McMaster_Carr_Online_Catalog


http://www.fostermation.com/rods_shafts.htm?gclid=CPjf6vmdyLQCFQ_hQgodJ3IAMA


Hollow rod images

The rest of my search results are

here

best of luck
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2007939 - 01/02/13 12:14 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7680
Loc: France
Well I understand why tuning pins are used ! so simple and easy !

A customer of mine is making similar test instrument, mostly to find correlation between different soundboard materials and setup,

The holding of the tone is almost secondary for him, the hammers style and materials, the soundboard, reaction to downbearing, is more what he is looking for, on a very basic setup (he was lucky I provide him an octave of straight keys)


Edited by Kamin (01/02/13 03:02 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2008018 - 01/02/13 02:47 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
This is getting real expensive, fast. I think i may just get some 'ol piano and pick out the goodies. Seems to be the cheapest.
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#2008689 - 01/03/13 07:22 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: TecFlip]
Silverwood Pianos Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4204
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: TecFlip
This is getting real expensive, fast. I think i may just get some 'ol piano and pick out the goodies. Seems to be the cheapest.


Lots of them around for spare parts and experiments.

Best of luck,
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2008993 - 01/04/13 02:48 PM Re: cutting out piano keys and other questions. [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Thanks!
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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