Hello forum
I have asked this before and got no where

the question is hand position

I had a teacher I believe she was from Austria
but not sure definitely Ukranian

she had me hold my hand so that when the key was depressed my fingers were completely straight and vertical as if they were standing on the keys like posts.

at first it was pretty strange and uncomfortable

I have revisited this method again for the last few weeks
and I have to say my scales sound less clumsy more even more fluid
and overall it is a better sound

I am just curious has anyone else tried this or seen this method.
here is a video of me attempting to demonstrate

youtube video

Hello! The technique you speak of in which your fingers are vertical and straight looks a lot more tense...you move your wrists and hands a lot more and it seems like it may be wasting a lot of energy. I'd stick with curved fingers for the majority of pieces!

I don't think there is a benefit to the stand-up method. I recall this being posted on the teacher's forum earlier and I'm glad you have a video now to share to help explain it. Now seeing it, I think there's too much extraneous movement, meaning it's inefficient and will eventually break down. You claim to feel better playing with this (although I do not hear any difference between your A & B), and while that may in your mind lend it more weight, perhaps you would want to consider what it is that feels better. This is very important. I think the high wrists are not good as you eliminate any arm weight. However, because your "A" method may be flawed, you're siding with the "B" method right now since it may simply be eliminating that flaw, but in the long run is limiting in itself.

On a side note, how did you get your piano to get higher as you go down?? I was very distracted by that in the video trying to figure out what was going on LOL!

I am a scale lover, but there is a lot of different ways to work with the scales. The normal and the way you should play while playing a music piece is ofcourse with the fingers curved. However by playing it in other ways you can achieve different results.

F. ex: I often work with my fingers completely flat, and move my fingers slowly by lifting the arm, with the result of having a minimum of tension in my arms and fingers, then I transfer this relaxed mode to my normal scale playing, so I can play with less tension.

I just tested your teacher's way of playing scales, and what I found good about it, was that it helped me with having the finger right over the tangent before I pressed it down, and it was easier to put it precisely in the middle of the tagent, so if hitting accuratly and precisely is your goal, I guess this is a good excersise. However there is a gret tension in the hands, and the thumb is standing up in a horrid way (the secret behind good scales is a good relaxed thumb). If you feel comfortable with hitting precise I would recomend you to work with relaxation, and also play more than one octave at once to get a good flow.

As far a scale technique goes why would one play/practice/demonstrate only one octave unless one is a complete beginner? Kind of like demonstrating a trill by playing just two notes. The whole difficulty is about passing the thumb under both the third and fourth finger.

The suggestion from the Austrian teacher, if your demo is what was really suggested, looks completely absurd to me. No good pianist plays scales or anything else with fingers positioned like that.The only time one might play with a hand in that position is one when is forced to in passages where the two hands are playing "on top of each other" so one is forced to lift one hand very high to get it out of the way of the other hand.

Your verbal description of the fingers being completely straight and vertical also doesn't match what you did. It's possible the teacher meant the first joint of the finger in that position which sounds more like playing with very curved fingers

In my experience, there does seem to be a Russian style of technique exemplified by a high bridge and high fingertips that reach up in the air and then move downward as if to pull the note towards the palm. It looks almost like the motion a hand would make when the fingertips wave goodbye, but it is individual fingers that do the motion.

One of the Russian teacher's I met at the Victoria Conservatory said this is how she was taught at the Moscow Conservatory. To me, it looks like wasted motion but she plays every note with great beauty. Watching her play is like watching a finger ballet. I cannot make this style feel natural and I do not use it but it works beautifully for her.

Edit: I took a look at your video and I notice when you use the straight finger technique you are referring to, your shoulders tense up and your wrists are very high. I think the high wrists might invite injury and the tense shoulders will give a harsh sound.

I know the motion you're talking about. For some reason, I associate it in my mind with Horowitz. Don't know if he does it regularly, or if I'm just remembering a specific video, but he's definitely done it.

Watch some of the vids of Lisitsa. She often uses it on trills and I can't figure out how it would work. I don't think the "dive bomber" concept works very well.

Don't know how this would work as a global approach to all scale playing. For expressive purposes here and there, yes.

And, maduro, as another poster noticed when you play on the video with high fingertips your shoulders hike up. Careful. The Land of Tension is only fingersteps away!

Your comment about Lisitsa reminds me of a pianist I knew in college, a fellow student, very talented and accomplished. He played trills with vertical fingers. I'm sure his teacher at that time did not teach this technique; more likely he developed it on his own.

I have no expertise to share. I am in the first stages of relearning/learning. But I think I can trust some observations in the raw.

When you play in the old way, the sound is not as strong or solid, and I think one or two notes was weaker. When you do the new thing, the sound is strong and solid. In the new way, your whole arm mechanism is moving from fingertip to shoulder, while the older way it's mostly the fingers. Impression: the whole arm mechanism working seems the right direction - except that you don't know yet what to do with the rest of you, so these awkward things are going on. Maybe your teacher is setting this up, so that over time the whole mechanism will start working together. You may be only at the first stage of what your teacher has in mind.

I've been working with a teacher on physical playing for the first time part of this year. I was self-taught decades ago. When I played melody notes as opposed to chords, my hand was perfectly still and only my fingers moved, and those fingers are naturally quite curved. I had difficulty playing fast, I cramped, got numbness, had a weak sound - it wasn't good. Among the things we're doing based on what my teacher is seeing and how I'm responding:
- getting movement in all the joints
- for now, exaggerated movement, like when a little kid draws using his whole arm using fat crayons, and later on what's left are micro-motions. This is to unlock what is locked up, and teach the body how it can move
- involving movement of the hand even when playing single notes (nothing gets locked up)
- aiming toward straighter fingers because mine are so curved normally that this balances it out.

Some of the principles are that if it sounds better, feels better, and starts to look right, then it probably is right. Anyhow, seeing this video reminded me of some of what I'm doing. We each have our individual weaknesses, and we don't know what your teacher's larger plan is.

I agree with the last poster and I am glad that some people stepped forward and have seen this method before.

I think one person says No good piano player would play scales like this.
why do people say such things.
when I stated that a piano teacher (a graduate student at Aaron copland conservatory she was a performance major) taught me the method really taught me not just demonstrated it was some years ago and I left it alone for many years so I am a little clumsy with it now but
she had to at least be good. So glad to hear about other great players who have utilized this technique
so now we know that there are a few good piano players out there who do it.

I didn't say this before but the only other time I saw this method used was by a young guy in sam ash he had a Ukrainian teacher also and he played with the fingers standing straight

and I have to say he played the most beautiful scales.

I don't have a teacher now and I am sure the hiking of the shoulders was because of my lack of familiarity with the method.
I will make sure to keep an eye on extraneous motions. thanks for pointing that stuff out

apart from the bone headed comments there are a lot of helpful advice and observations presented on this forum
I think it is cool to have a community of player willing to help

for the next few weeks

I will work on staying relaxed but I am going to stick to this method for a while

for a few reasons
one I do notice a difference I don't think it is in my mind
I notice however on the video there seems to be little difference

two as was said be a few posters it does work and sound great
when done right

three I love doing things that are rare and different
especially when they work

four
I have done the more normal method all my playing life and my scales are mediocre at best.

time to make a change stupidity is doing the same things and expecting different results right?

it wont hurt to give this method a few months of my time

Thanks to everyone for sharing

If you think the method with vertical fingers is appropriate for scales, try and find a YouTube recording of a world class pianist who plays this way and post the recording. There are a few situations where a small number of pianists play with a very high wrist and somewhat vertical fingers, but I don't think you'll find a single example when they're playing scales that way.

You also need to be very careful of how you describe this idea. There is astronomical difference between suggesting that the first joint vs. the first and second joints vs. the entire finger(all three joints) are vertical. The last one, which seems to be the one you're advocating and demonstrate before you play the scales, is virtually unheard of in correct scale playing IMO.

I'm surprised any posters have thought an approach with the entire finger vertical might be reasonable. My guess is the teacher you mentioned suggested holding just the first joint of your finger vertical. I don't know if this is a particularly desirable but at least it's possible to play scales this way and usually would be called playing with very curved fingers.

the fact that you think I didn't understand the lesson is kind of interesting.
maybe you think I am not smart enough to understand.

I had more than a few lessons and she clearly had me have all five fingers completely straight. we both were at Aaron copland school of music which is a top shelf conservatory
she was a performance major getting her masters
I was a first semester theory student


the fact that it doesent make sense to you doesent mean it is a useless or incorrect method.
all I can say is her scales sounded
awesome. and I was quite lucid during our lessons and yea all of the fingers stood like posts straight up.

I have only seen it done one other time
but both times the scales sounded great.
I am not sure that me spending hours searching for someone else who played scales like this is worth the effort.

This is how she instructed me to play scales
I wasn't with her long and I think I will give another crack at it.

I don't think your ignorance or a better way to say it your lack of understanding to the purpose discredits the method
it just means you and apparently not many people know about it or know its purpose
but there are many roads less travelled that are the better road.



The fact that we are still here talking about says that there is something to it
otherwise no one would bother.

I don't think a good technique can be properly taught in a short period of time. Perhaps you understand the basics that she was able to get through, but did she give you her stamp of approval on how you are playing now?

Sometimes a teacher will have a student do some exaggerated technique in order to address a particular issue or introduce a particular concept of playing. Then they will add to that technique over time until it arrives at the place where there is freedom and consistency in the playing.

Obviously there are tension issues in both ways of your playing, and the best way to address them is with a teacher. I think it *is* worthwhile trying to find another teacher who teaches this method so that you can continue and really give the technique a good chance, rather than just keep doing what you're doing and hope that it will get better that way.

But if any great pianists use this method it should be easy to find many examples quickly. Do you think this teacher is privy to some secret method of playing scales that hasn't been tried before? If this method is from the Russian school of piano playing then it should be obvious by looking at any of the thousands of YouTube videos of the great Russian pianists.

Problems (I see) with playing with vertical fingers and high wrist:

1. You aren't playing with the most sensitive part of the finger meaning it will be harder to control the sound.

2. Such a high wrist means to play each note you need more effort and a bigger movement meaning when you it will be harder to play very fast.

3. Because you lose the bridge shape of the hand, that brings several disadvantages such as it makes it harder to control the evenness of the scale.

If one takes the OP's description literally, i.e. completely straight and completely vertical fingers, the only way to move the key down is by dropping the hand on every note. Any movement of just the finger would be parallel to the ground. So I think this description makes playing almost anything except an isolated chord or note not just difficult but impossible. And it does not correctly describe what he shows in the second video which is playing with an extremely high wrist and part of the finger in a somewhat vertical postiion.

There is a difference between playing with perfectly straight fingers in a completely vertical position and playing with one or two joints fairly straight. So, for starters I think the OP needs a far different description of the playing in the second video.

But even with a more accurate description I don't think there exists a YouTube video with a good pianist playing scales with the hand position shown in the second video.

If you saw only somewhat straight fingers then I demonstrated incorrectly
if my wrists were too high that is because I was playing the scales so incorrectly
the wrist is high but it also lowers in a fluid up and down motion

I will revisit this in a few weeks

I have every confidence in this technique.

every confidence

The wrist only moves sideways when the hand changes positions not up and down with each individual note.

All the joints of the body have to be able to move, including allowing up and down motion at the wrist. I don't think this is strictly correct.

I never said (didn't mean) to say your hand must be completely frozen and stiff. There will be other movements but the main one should be sideways in the direction you are going to play.




I feel like doing a YouTube vid of my scales now.

Well, of course, the wrist must move sideways if one is playing a scale. But if the fingers are actually completely straight and completely vertical then the only way to get the key to go down would be to lower the hand on each note. The whole concept, if followed exactly as stated in the last sentence(which is what I believe the OP is recommending) , makes scale playing virtually impossible. That's why I don't think anyone can find a video of any professional pianist playing scales that way.

Let me correct you pianoloverus
the fingers are straight but the hand is held just high enough to allow the fingers to reach the keybed straight

in fact I am not sure I know exactly the mechanism
but I can assure you with utmost confidence you are wrong in saying
that it is impossible to play the scales this way

quite the contrary
the scales become very fluid



I am already starting to see progress

instead of debating the issue

why not wait until the end of January after working with this method
for a few more weeks I will post another video and you tell me what you see.

... and when you do, please post your playing of a four-octave unison (i.e. hands together) scale at a reasonably good tempo, which should be at least MM = 120, four notes to the beat. If you can combine contrary motion within that exercise, so much the better.

This example should help establish your claim about ease and fluidity.

Regards,

Morodiene's advice was on track: find a teacher and work with that teacher to form your playing mechanism. It does not have to be the same thing that this first teacher did. If you have certain strengths and weaknesses right now, chances are that it may go in the same direction, but from another angle. I recommend that you do NOT follow BruceD's advice, for a number of reasons.

I'd like to introduce a concept that I'll call "end results" and "process". The end results are things like playing a scale with good motion and good sound, or anything that we might deem "correct". "Process" is teaching and training that gets us there. A teacher might have a student do things that don't seem to make sense or even look good, because the teacher has a final thing in mind that will develop. The biggest problem such teachers face is that students are looking for the final product, and are not open minded enough to give it a chance. Then outsiders also come in and talk about how everything is "supposed to be". You are caught mid-stream. This teacher gave you something to start with, and if she was a good teacher, then she would have developed other things, tweaking and suggesting. That's why Morodiene's idea is good. You should be working with someone.

If you do what BruceD says, then you are aiming for end results. You might hurt yourself in the process, and I see no purpose in it, period. If you were to consult a good teacher, NO teacher would have you aiming for such results - they would be aiming at getting your technique developed properly first. Trying to play a four octave scale at MM=120, 4 notes, can result in sloppy habits which is not what you want to establish.

I don't think Bruce meant to practise scales at 120 bpm ...
I think you misinterpreted what he said. I'm not saying what you said is wrong, I do agree with it.

Bruce was suggesting for him to show us scales done at that speed to prove us that the end results were good. Bruce was not telling him to practise at that speed. That would be silly.

When speaking or writing about sound, especially when one is perhaps not accustomed to doing so like a teacher might be, descriptions of how one accomplishes a sound or feel can be less than precise. I think this is the case, because his written description (which I read on this forum and his previous post on the Teacher's forum) was clearly not what he was doing in the video. In such cases, of course, it comes down to what he actually is doing and the resulting sound and not words used to describe it in this instance.

Having said that, I agree with pianoloverus that this technique seems inefficient given the only visual/aural example we have - a student who admittedly did not perfect this technique under his teacher's direction. Which means we cannot really consider the example legitimate unless the OP can provide video examples of those who have perfected this technique.

I understand that.

Ok, there are a couple of things that I don't know. People who are excellent pianists often had good instruction when they were young. They got solid grounding in their technique at an age where it happens outside of your awareness, and then it's just part of them. I don't know if they're aware of the process of getting that technique (or remediating from being self-taught or badly taught). Once you have the technique, then you use it for things like playing scales. In lessons that were well set up the various things develop hand in hand. Of course someone who also teaches beginners, developing their skills from the ground up, will also become aware of it. I don't know where Bruce and others are in this.

So say someone's technique is being developed in stages - that is something that is in the process of being formed. If it's midway then it's neither fish nor fowl. If you know that, you won't be asking the person to do something like these scales at that tempo. It doesn't prove anything, because it is a thing under development. It can also harm the person trying it, as well as harming the technique being formed, if there is something bona fide underway.

Wel, this is no longer in the process of being formed because he is no longer studying with the teacher of this technique and only did so for a short time. Also, the OP is going to teach himself this technique that he doesn't fully know regardless of Bruce's suggestion. Lastly, I'm pretty sure Bruce's recommendation was tongue-in-cheek, saying that he will not be able to play scales like that at that speed with accuracy and evenness. The OP seems determined to do this technique regardless of what people say here.