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#2006087 - 12/29/12 03:44 PM Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
from:
San Diego USA
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2002417/1.html
Originally Posted By: TrueMusic
... the [Yamaha] C7 ... it's GORGEOUS, even in it's showroom condition where it needs a bit of work on the tuning. Basically, my tech said all the components of the piano are in near perfect condition and it looks like it had barely been played at all. ... So I'll be getting a new-to-me C7 delivered next Friday! And for the condition it was in, $15,000 is a great price!...


Since I'm pondering of buying something similar for my family (perhaps not for "me") sometime in the future, I gave this purchase some thought.

This seems like a really good deal, compared to prices in Europe, where I live. 15000 USD is circa 11000 EUR.

A quick search on google in the "European market" found me one C7 used. Made in 1979. Recently refurbished to "perfect" condition. It had only 2 pedals (what year did that become 3?). Asking price 19000 EUR - almost double what was paid above in San Diego USA, for a much older (?) instrument.

11000 EUR buys me a nice C3 from 1990, from what I can find.

Have I understood the price levels correct? Why such a big difference? Are there some export / import business going on? Are "used" less popular in USA than in Europe? Any other comments?


Take care!


Edited by boyonahill (12/29/12 03:50 PM)
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute Beginner(s)

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#2006831 - 12/31/12 01:25 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
musicpassion Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 908
Loc: California, USA
Many areas of California's economy took a huge hit in the recession, and so far it seems to me that used piano prices haven't returned to pre-recession levels. (Who knows, maybe they won't for a very long time).

I think it's a very complex question to determine market value for instruments, but it can be fun to talk about.

One other thing that might be a factor: some places in California have MANY Yamaha pianos. I don't live in San Diego, but I expect that to be true there. So they are a very common piano, and if there are other people selling the same piano that can also lower the price.
_________________________
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#2006848 - 12/31/12 02:03 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: musicpassion]
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: musicpassion
Many areas of California's economy took a huge hit in the recession, and so far it seems to me that used piano prices haven't returned to pre-recession levels. (Who knows, maybe they won't for a very long time).

I think it's a very complex question to determine market value for instruments, but it can be fun to talk about.

One other thing that might be a factor: some places in California have MANY Yamaha pianos. I don't live in San Diego, but I expect that to be true there. So they are a very common piano, and if there are other people selling the same piano that can also lower the price.


Thank you for responding!

As you might have heard the economy isn't doing that great in Europe either, but you might have a point in that some parts that are "big" in pianos still have an OK economy, like Germany.

Adding to that, I have the image that grand pianos are some kind of "show piece" people fill their mansions with in the USA? That is not (much) the case where I live. I guess such a show piece is early to go when you can't pay your mortgage. But looking at where real estate prices have gone lately (UPUPUP) the floor space required by a grand piano is worth more than even an expensive grand piano, crazy world!

It would be great if somebody with knowledge could comment on the situation for other brands and their prices.


Edited by boyonahill (12/31/12 02:05 AM)
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute Beginner(s)

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#2006871 - 12/31/12 04:30 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Depending on the type of location, the market for a larger grand piano is unusual. For reasons of space and other concerns, a big grand that has been on the private sale market some time may sell for less than a smaller one of the same quality and age. They also don't come on the market as often as smaller ones. A lot depends on timing and circumstances.

Since time is not an issue, it would be an idea to start actively looking now, casting a wider net than your immediate area, including dealers.

_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2006888 - 12/31/12 06:35 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
musicpassion Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 908
Loc: California, USA
A showpiece to fill their mansion. Well, yes there are mansions in California, and probably most of them have pianos.

But no, I don't think it's an image that accurately reflects the majority of piano owners. Just as is probably true about most places, the ultra wealthy are a small percentage of the population in the USA.

I have heard about the European economy. Interesting that real estate prices have gone up.
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#2006892 - 12/31/12 06:55 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 433
Loc: Münster, Germany
A quick search found me a C7 made in 1989 for 18.000 asking price:

http://kleinanzeigen.ebay.de/anzeigen/s-...6245664-74-7665
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#2006894 - 12/31/12 06:56 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: musicpassion]
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: musicpassion
...
I have heard about the European economy. Interesting that real estate prices have gone up.


In some countries up, down like the USA in others.
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute Beginner(s)

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#2006895 - 12/31/12 07:01 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: Gregor]
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Gregor
A quick search found me a C7 made in 1989 for 18.000 asking price:

http://kleinanzeigen.ebay.de/anzeigen/s-...6245664-74-7665


Great find! TrueMusic paid 11000 EUR for a similar one in San Diego USA.

Perhaps 20% of the price difference could be explained by no VAT in the USA, but the price difference is much bigger than that.

Gregor, do people in Germany in your experience buy Grand Pianos as show pieces?
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute Beginner(s)

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#2007025 - 12/31/12 11:39 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
jawhitti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 235
I gave around 22k for my '04 C6. A c7 for 15k sounds like quite a bargain. I am in the Midwest though and that is on the coast. Prices are naturally a little more liquid out there as there are a lot more pianos.

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#2007026 - 12/31/12 11:40 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
j&j Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 444
Loc: Southwest
Interesting question. I know that piano prices in San Diego for both new and used Yamahas are better than they are in New Mexico. I assumed that was because the port is there and there's little additional shipping costs. Also, there are group buyers for some models Yamahas like U1s but I don't know if that's a factor for C7s.

Oh well, I guess I picked having a dealer close to home rather than buying at the best price then having to ship it here....cost vs. convenience.

Dealers and tuners would have to answer the other question about pianos as showpieces only. I think there's a much larger number of pianos "abandoned in place" here in the US than pianos bought as a status symbol.
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#2007036 - 12/31/12 12:01 PM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1523
Loc: Danville, California
I think the real answer is that he got an unusually low price on his C7

This would be a more normal ad one might see here for a used C7

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/msg/3502685163.html

Or this one:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/msg/3498090293.html









Edited by Furtwangler (12/31/12 12:02 PM)

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#2007302 - 01/01/13 01:52 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: Furtwangler]
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Furtwangler
I think the real answer is that he got an unusually low price on his C7

This would be a more normal ad one might see here for a used C7

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/msg/3502685163.html

Or this one:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/msg/3498090293.html



Thank you all for your comments. Adding VAT (20%) to those prices make them even less of a deal. But perhaps they are negotiating starting points, and then they are interesting.

All these nice links to C7:s makes me wonder if I really need such a nice car and that I probably would enjoy the beauty of a grand more.
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute Beginner(s)

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#2007389 - 01/01/13 09:04 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 433
Loc: Münster, Germany
Originally Posted By: boyonahill
Gregor, do people in Germany in your experience buy Grand Pianos as show pieces?


Defenitely not. They don´t buy grands at all smile As a rough guess I would say that only 10 % of my tuning customers own a grand. Those who own one play it a lot.

Boyonahill, in which country do you live?

As to climbing real estate prices in Germany: I am not shure if you in North America are aware of the present Euro monetary crisis over here. Some countries in South Europe are realy in trouble while Germany´s economy is amazing stable. For example: here in Germany only 7.9 % of the youth is unemployed whereas it´s 52 % in Spain or Greece. Many people in South Europe have fear for their savings and Germany seems to be a safe harbor for their money. So, much money comes to Germany. This caused a boom in the building sector. Futhermore, real estate seems to be a safe financial investment, similiar to gold (at least better than dubious financial products or paper money). Rich (e.g.) Greeks or Spanish buy German buildings which raises the prices. On the other hand real estate in Spain became much cheaper because they had a housing bubble that burst, perhaps comparable to the situation in the USA.

Gregor
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#2007680 - 01/01/13 09:07 PM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: Gregor]
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Gregor

...
Boyonahill, in which country do you live?
...


Please allow me to answer with a piano related video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgAmB-VFu0w&feature=youtu.be&t=1h44m54s

(could anybody pinpoint make and model of that grand piano?)
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute Beginner(s)

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#2007813 - 01/02/13 05:46 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 433
Loc: Münster, Germany
Hmmm, Brighton?

I just looked up my customer database: only 4.7 % of my customers own a grand piano.

Gregor
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#2007892 - 01/02/13 10:22 AM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
in december of 2011 i purchased an immaculate 2005 C7 for 21.5K, plus @ 1.5k to have it transported from LA to chicago. i think with the economy rebounding it's being reflected in the asking prices.

looks like i purchased an investment-grade piano!
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#2007930 - 01/02/13 12:01 PM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: Gregor]
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Hmmm, Brighton?

I just looked up my customer database: only 4.7 % of my customers own a grand piano.

Gregor


No not Brighton!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow17XyKc8SY&feature=youtu.be&t=2h6m38s

4.7 percent, not much!
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute Beginner(s)

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#2008194 - 01/02/13 08:23 PM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: Furtwangler]
TrueMusic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/12
Posts: 254
Loc: San Diego, California
Originally Posted By: Furtwangler
I think the real answer is that he got an unusually low price on his C7

This would be a more normal ad one might see here for a used C7

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/msg/3502685163.html

Or this one:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/msg/3498090293.html


As the purchaser of the piano in question, I would agree with this completely. I entered the market with no assumption I could end up with a C7 - it was WELL outside my budget. The piano I found had simply been sitting at the dealer for awhile and he had just decided he wanted to sell it. His original asking price was $26,000, not the $15,000 I paid. Basically, the owner of the store had a beautiful piano that wasn't selling for some reason, and wanted to get it into a good home, and I was lucky enough to find it right when he did! I simply got lucky, rather than this being a standard pricing on this piano here in the US. The other C7's I found were in the $20,000 + price range, although I did find one other one for closer to $18,000.
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#2043022 - 03/04/13 08:31 PM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
There seems to be somebody taking advantage of international price differences

Piano Outlet seems to import a lot from Japan to Florida USA, and they don't keep it a secret.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmddOmdxNCE

From what I know and have heard, the Japanese are not that keen on used stuff (myth?), that might be the reason he can buy cheap in Japan?
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute Beginner(s)

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#2043082 - 03/04/13 10:29 PM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: boyonahill]
xbj Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8
Keep searching. You'll find at least 10 exporters of Japanese used pianos on the net, as well as 15 grey market dealers. Most fall off eBay, while Russell stays because he runs auctions as ads to get local sales. He sells at most 8 pianos a year via eBay. That was during the good years.

The problem importing used pianos from Japan?

You have to buy an entire crate. You literally have to be a dealer and have the space.

It's pot luck... you have no idea what will be in there until you get it. However, you can buy them already refurbished.

There's a glut like never before of used Yamaha pianos on eBay, and its because of the Depression. Few can afford to buy, are already overextended, and the 1% buy new.

In Japan, MANY more homes than here have pianos per capita, and when the kids leave, they get rid of them.

Just type in a Japanese model as a search term W102, W107 and you'll see tons of Japanese dealers and US grey market dealers.

As for the seasoning warnings, they're bunk in few Yamahas built after '71. Few soundboards have cracked since then, and only in folks who put their piano right over a floor hot air vent. Few pianos could stand that sort of abuse. Yamaha fixed the seasoning problem early on.


Edited by xbj (03/04/13 10:29 PM)

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#2043595 - 03/05/13 09:13 PM Re: Yamaha Grand Piano (USED) prices USA vs Europe [Re: xbj]
boyonahill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: xbj
...
The problem importing used pianos from Japan?

You have to buy an entire crate. You literally have to be a dealer and have the space.

It's pot luck... you have no idea what will be in there until you get it.
...


OK, but can't you have a person you trust in Japan to look and choose your pianos?


Edited by boyonahill (03/05/13 09:14 PM)
_________________________
Current: Casio SA-46 + looking for a nice electronic piano
Sold: Yamaha M5J Walnut
Playing ability: Absolute Beginner(s)

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