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#2003584 - 12/23/12 05:22 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
I've just taken off the XL and replaced it with the Large so I can get another couple of pianos into my Nord Piano. I can't really hear much difference. I certainly don't feel like it is significantly inferior (if at all). I suppose the best way would be to clear off some pianos and load both L and XL into it and swap between them.
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#2003590 - 12/23/12 05:38 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 793
I went back and forth between the XL and L Fazioli for a while (for the first time I could check an XL on my Electro 3HP). The main difference seems to be that the XL is a fully mapped, not a stretched sample. You can hear the difference when doing chromatic scales. In the L and M sizes there are recognizable jumps between some stretch groups.

If you don't listen for it, and in actual playing, I doubt you would notice it a lot. I'm actually fine with the M version myself (see earlier post).

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#2003607 - 12/23/12 06:12 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Notice that the entire Fazioli sample is not as loud as the other ones. Really noticeable when you change samples. You'd have to adjust the volume.
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
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#2003713 - 12/23/12 11:05 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1422
I've been spending lots of time with the Fazioli sample and it is definitely hands down the best Nord has come out with. It's much more even, warm, yet can be bright, and is versatile. Very happy with it.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#2006209 - 12/29/12 07:44 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: PianoZac]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1728
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2
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#2006213 - 12/29/12 07:50 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: Dave Ferris]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
I was able to use the new Nord Fazioli XL sample last night in a jazz trio context with the Nord Piano 2 and it was excellent. Nord's best sample to date without question.


Yes, I've been using it a lot. I think the new Faz is so good because it manages to have no vices whilst also not being bland or boring - quite an achievement.
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#2006214 - 12/29/12 07:51 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: Dave Ferris]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Seemed like I played better...maybe it was psychological,...


LOL -- I have to admit I felt this too. I felt satisfied with the sound coming out. And somehow it translated as well to my being more tolerant of the action.

The over-sensitivity of the velocity response curve in other samples played tricks with my brain.

The only problem is that on my particular monitors (I don't have my PA plugged in), the volume is way down now. I'm too lazy to unpack my mixers/PA to pre-amp the signal. But it shows the shift in thinking at Clavia with respect to velocity curves.

Haven't tested it live yet though. My next few gigs are with a real Grand.
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#2006220 - 12/29/12 08:05 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: jazzwee]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1728
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2
RCF TT08A & TT22A speakers


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#2006399 - 12/30/12 07:39 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1422
Great recording Dave. I'm always impressed with how natural the Nord records, versus so many other digitals. I'm in agreement with you and Steve, the Fazioli is the best sample to date by Nord. It finally supplanted the Studio Grand 2 C7 as my favorite. I find it interesting that the Large sample of the Faz is nearly 100MB, noticeably larger than the other Large samples, yet the XL size is the smallest yet, and interestingly still, the Faz is the most even sample.
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Haven't tested it live yet though. My next few gigs are with a real Grand.


Yeah last night would have been a good test to see if I felt a disconnect with it. On Thursday I did a 3.5 hour solo gig on a Faziloi 212 in a private residence.

Incredible piano ! What do I have to do to get one ? cool (no, not selling the D)

So I was definitely ready for "I hate all digital pianos " mode.. grin Surprisingly enough, that wasn't the case last night.

No I don't think your nuts. I really believe when you're confident in your sound, it reflects directly in your playing. By the way Dave, how did the Fazioli sample sound vs the real deal F212?? smile


Edited by PianoZac (12/30/12 07:56 AM)
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#2006400 - 12/30/12 07:42 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1717
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
No room at the inn for this on my stage 2 I'd have to delete some rather nice stuff .... Worth it ?
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#2006408 - 12/30/12 07:54 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: Dr Popper]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1422
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
No room at the inn for this on my stage 2 I'd have to delete some rather nice stuff .... Worth it ?
Definitely! At least have this as your main AP sample. Even the Large, at 97.3MB is a very nice, dynamic, and detailed sample. The XL just sounds a little bit bigger (as it should being fully mapped).
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Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#2006411 - 12/30/12 08:03 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: PianoZac]
voodooblues Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/23/12
Posts: 27
Quote:
The XL just sounds a little bit bigger (as it should being fully mapped)


What does "fully mapped" mean ? I know Nord likes to hype their samples being "fully mapped" smile


Edited by voodooblues (12/30/12 08:04 AM)

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#2006412 - 12/30/12 08:04 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
I think they mean fewer notes per sample (ie, less stretching). I don't think the XL versions are 88 note sampled though. I think there's still some stretching going on.
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#2006415 - 12/30/12 08:14 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
voodooblues Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/23/12
Posts: 27
Would be interesting to see XL sample going through DPBSD test

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#2006418 - 12/30/12 08:21 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Yes, I'll see if I can do that this evening...
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#2006422 - 12/30/12 08:37 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8854
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I was under the impression that XL 'fully mapped' referred to 88-key sampling...

Is this not the case?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2006430 - 12/30/12 08:50 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: PianoZac]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3151
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
I find it interesting that the Large sample of the Faz is nearly 100MB, noticeably larger than the other Large samples, yet the XL size is the smallest yet

Interesting observation. Since the difference between an XL and an L is that they sample more keys in the XL (all of them, I believe), then I think the relatively large size of the L probably means that that version includes closer to the same number of samples that the XL does, compared to other L/XL pairs, i.e. there is less stretching than on other Ls. The fact that this XL is smaller than other XLs tells me that it has less something than other XLs, though we don't know what. Maybe fewer velocity layers (arguably, not every piano benefits equally from the same number, as the timbre variation from soft to loud is more extreme in some acoustics than others). It could also be shorter samples (attack portions and/or loop portions, the latter more conceivable, if the tone of the piano happened to lend itself to shorter loops that worked). If I get a chance (and no one beats me to it), maybe I'll get copies of these to dewster for DPBSD analysis.

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#2006441 - 12/30/12 09:09 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: Kawai James]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
I was under the impression that XL 'fully mapped' referred to 88-key sampling...

Is this not the case?

James
x


Yes I know what you mean James. But for some reason I suspect not. I bet it's "more mapped" and not "fully mapped". Nord's benchmark for "fully mapped" may not actually mean 88 note sampling. I'll have a close listen later. Stretch groups are usually easy to hear.
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#2006450 - 12/30/12 09:33 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8854
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
EssBrace, I expect you may have read this already, but just in case, here's the explanation from the Nord site:

Quote:
The Lrg, Med and Sml sizes share the same amount of velocity layers, and the same number of zones that are mapped across the keyboard. This means that you can rely on a consistent quality in regards to the playability and expressiveness in the basic sound of every piano, no matter which of these sizes you choose to install in your Nord Piano Library compatible unit.

The Extra Large versions are fully mapped accross the keyboard which increases the size a bit. The velocity layers are the same as on the other sizes.

The Large versions have String Resonance samples all across the keyboard, providing you with a very full sound.

The Medium versions have String Resonance samples in the important middle region of the range, but omit these in the lowest and the highest areas. This gives you a good ratio of functionality and size.

Sml is the version that uses the least amount of space in the piano memory, but still carry a big and powerful punch. This version does not contain any String Resonance samples at all. If an Sml piano is selected in the Nord unit, the String Resonance feature (if applicable) will be disabled.


_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2006473 - 12/30/12 10:20 AM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: Kawai James]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3151
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
EssBrace, I expect you may have read this already, but...
Quote:
The Extra Large versions are fully mapped accross the keyboard


Yup, that's the relevant passage, and the only published reference to the feature that I know of, and the question is one of how precisely it was written. They never say "88." That is a logical interpretation of "fully mapped" as a differentiating feature, but it's not completely unambiguous. Especially when you consider that a simple omission of a word could completely alter it, i.e. "Extra Large versions are more fully mapped accross the keyboard." (Something like that could happen as a kind of typographical error, or confusion between an engineer and a copywriter, or even the fact that English isn't their first language over there.) Also, a phrase like "fully mapped" could technically be whatever the manufacturer defines it to be. For example, it's not impossible that Nord's definition is along the lines of "we usually assign samples to every 3 to 5 keys, but our fully mapped version assign a sample for every two keys" -- that is, it could be fully mapped by their standards. I still think it's likely that they do mean all 88, but until destwer does an XL analysis, I would say that the web text alone is not 100% conclusive.

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#2006526 - 12/30/12 12:47 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
I need to reload the XL version onto my NP88. The Large version is stretched - just been playing it. Although on this new Faz the transitions are in many cases very good indeed. But I've found a couple of obvious clusters where there is clearly three notes per sample. So maybe the XL really is 88 note sampled. The DPBSD will reveal all....
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Yamaha CP1

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#2006531 - 12/30/12 12:54 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
btcomm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/07
Posts: 274
Loc: California
I take it the Extra Large version has String Resonance samples across the keyboard like the Medium and Large?

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#2006600 - 12/30/12 03:17 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1422
From what I've read, the XL versions are 88 key sampled, non stretched, full string resonance. This makes sense because the XL samples in the Nord Piano Library are far larger than the typical 40-80MB sample size in most other DPs like Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Korg, Casio, etc. The Fazioli is the nicest piano sample by FAR that Clavia has released.
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Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#2006714 - 12/30/12 07:51 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
A couple of recent YT vids I've just found...The first compares Nord Grand Imperial (Bosendorfer) and the new Italian Grand (Fazioli). The second is a piece this guy has written and he plays it using the Italian Grand. I think the first video is a classic example of how something sounds different when you just listen as opposed to playing. I feel that the first video flatters the Bosendorfer because when I play it I hear a thinnish nasal quality on the mids/upper mids that I rather dislike. To play the new Fazioli is vastly preferable to me. But they both sound good on video 1.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5Wwz1mNmEY

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp79RpIL8ps

Cheers,

Steve
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Yamaha CP1

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#2006734 - 12/30/12 08:28 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 719
I know this thread is a lovefest for Nord and I really want to love or at least like very much their acoustic pianos but I just keep hearing "fake..."

I didn't hear much of a difference between the imperial and the Italian grand. Add a sub-par action and I just can't jump on board yet.

(I know no one really cares what I think but there you go. I have the means, so I shall add my opinion.)

cheers.
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AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2006738 - 12/30/12 08:35 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8854
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Nord sound + decent action = fantastic playing experience. wink

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2006752 - 12/30/12 08:59 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: 36251]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: 36251
I know this thread is a lovefest for Nord and I really want to love or at least like very much their acoustic pianos but I just keep hearing "fake..."

I didn't hear much of a difference between the imperial and the Italian grand. Add a sub-par action and I just can't jump on board yet.


We hear things differently. Fake is the last word I'd use to describe any Nord Piano sounds. I find them more real sounding and characterful than any other hardware DP. And in practice the Bosie and Faz are very different beasts to my ears. I do agree the action is weaker than many others, there's no doubt about that - but it interacts with the sounds well. I'm currently playing Nord's sounds using MP10's keyboard so I'm pretty happy with that combination although I don't like having both pianos out in the room because it just looks a mess.
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#2006786 - 12/30/12 10:22 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: 36251]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Originally Posted By: 36251
I know this thread is a lovefest for Nord and I really want to love or at least like very much their acoustic pianos but I just keep hearing "fake..."

I was thinking it must be something to do with the live experience with other gear and a band. I guess it is the whole package being greater with the new sound.

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#2006787 - 12/30/12 10:24 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: voxpops]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1422
My Nords were leaps and bounds ahead of my old AvantGrand N1. There was no comparison. With headphones, the N1 sounded like a Clavinova sadly. I used to midi the N1 and Nord to use the N1 action to control the far better acoustic sounds of the Nord...that was cool!!


Edited by PianoZac (12/30/12 10:24 PM)
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Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#2006791 - 12/30/12 10:31 PM Re: New Nord Italian Grand [Re: EssBrace]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 719
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Fake is the last word I'd use to describe any Nord Piano sounds.
OK, fake is a little strong and I'm strictly referring to the acoustic pianos. I was just checking out some more YouTube vids. I'd say from middle C up, the samples are just not long enough for my ears. The very top is really lacking any length or woodness to sound real.

I guess it's tough after playing gigs using Vintage D. And I'll be bias and say the Roland FP4 is also more to my liking for acoustic. Nord certainly has the other sounds right on.

I'm leaving my N2 out of this discussion since I don't gig with that, but I'm totally satisfied with the live sound that generates.


Edited by 36251 (12/30/12 10:34 PM)
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