Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner is there a european technique difference with hand position

All the joints of the body have to be able to move, including allowing up and down motion at the wrist. I don't think this is strictly correct.

I never said (didn't mean) to say your hand must be completely frozen and stiff. There will be other movements but the main one should be sideways in the direction you are going to play.




I feel like doing a YouTube vid of my scales now.

Well, of course, the wrist must move sideways if one is playing a scale. But if the fingers are actually completely straight and completely vertical then the only way to get the key to go down would be to lower the hand on each note. The whole concept, if followed exactly as stated in the last sentence(which is what I believe the OP is recommending) , makes scale playing virtually impossible. That's why I don't think anyone can find a video of any professional pianist playing scales that way.

Let me correct you pianoloverus
the fingers are straight but the hand is held just high enough to allow the fingers to reach the keybed straight

in fact I am not sure I know exactly the mechanism
but I can assure you with utmost confidence you are wrong in saying
that it is impossible to play the scales this way

quite the contrary
the scales become very fluid



I am already starting to see progress

instead of debating the issue

why not wait until the end of January after working with this method
for a few more weeks I will post another video and you tell me what you see.

... and when you do, please post your playing of a four-octave unison (i.e. hands together) scale at a reasonably good tempo, which should be at least MM = 120, four notes to the beat. If you can combine contrary motion within that exercise, so much the better.

This example should help establish your claim about ease and fluidity.

Regards,

Morodiene's advice was on track: find a teacher and work with that teacher to form your playing mechanism. It does not have to be the same thing that this first teacher did. If you have certain strengths and weaknesses right now, chances are that it may go in the same direction, but from another angle. I recommend that you do NOT follow BruceD's advice, for a number of reasons.

I'd like to introduce a concept that I'll call "end results" and "process". The end results are things like playing a scale with good motion and good sound, or anything that we might deem "correct". "Process" is teaching and training that gets us there. A teacher might have a student do things that don't seem to make sense or even look good, because the teacher has a final thing in mind that will develop. The biggest problem such teachers face is that students are looking for the final product, and are not open minded enough to give it a chance. Then outsiders also come in and talk about how everything is "supposed to be". You are caught mid-stream. This teacher gave you something to start with, and if she was a good teacher, then she would have developed other things, tweaking and suggesting. That's why Morodiene's idea is good. You should be working with someone.

If you do what BruceD says, then you are aiming for end results. You might hurt yourself in the process, and I see no purpose in it, period. If you were to consult a good teacher, NO teacher would have you aiming for such results - they would be aiming at getting your technique developed properly first. Trying to play a four octave scale at MM=120, 4 notes, can result in sloppy habits which is not what you want to establish.

I don't think Bruce meant to practise scales at 120 bpm ...
I think you misinterpreted what he said. I'm not saying what you said is wrong, I do agree with it.

Bruce was suggesting for him to show us scales done at that speed to prove us that the end results were good. Bruce was not telling him to practise at that speed. That would be silly.

When speaking or writing about sound, especially when one is perhaps not accustomed to doing so like a teacher might be, descriptions of how one accomplishes a sound or feel can be less than precise. I think this is the case, because his written description (which I read on this forum and his previous post on the Teacher's forum) was clearly not what he was doing in the video. In such cases, of course, it comes down to what he actually is doing and the resulting sound and not words used to describe it in this instance.

Having said that, I agree with pianoloverus that this technique seems inefficient given the only visual/aural example we have - a student who admittedly did not perfect this technique under his teacher's direction. Which means we cannot really consider the example legitimate unless the OP can provide video examples of those who have perfected this technique.

I understand that.

Ok, there are a couple of things that I don't know. People who are excellent pianists often had good instruction when they were young. They got solid grounding in their technique at an age where it happens outside of your awareness, and then it's just part of them. I don't know if they're aware of the process of getting that technique (or remediating from being self-taught or badly taught). Once you have the technique, then you use it for things like playing scales. In lessons that were well set up the various things develop hand in hand. Of course someone who also teaches beginners, developing their skills from the ground up, will also become aware of it. I don't know where Bruce and others are in this.

So say someone's technique is being developed in stages - that is something that is in the process of being formed. If it's midway then it's neither fish nor fowl. If you know that, you won't be asking the person to do something like these scales at that tempo. It doesn't prove anything, because it is a thing under development. It can also harm the person trying it, as well as harming the technique being formed, if there is something bona fide underway.

Wel, this is no longer in the process of being formed because he is no longer studying with the teacher of this technique and only did so for a short time. Also, the OP is going to teach himself this technique that he doesn't fully know regardless of Bruce's suggestion. Lastly, I'm pretty sure Bruce's recommendation was tongue-in-cheek, saying that he will not be able to play scales like that at that speed with accuracy and evenness. The OP seems determined to do this technique regardless of what people say here.

It is the beginning stage of some process that is aiming for something that neither we nor the OP know, precisely because it did stop in the beginning. It is not a technique. It is something that might lead to a technique. The OP might pursue the idea and see where it leads and maybe he will learn something useful through observation and experimentation. I did see advice/suggestion, but it was from you, Morodiene, and I agree with it - namely to work with a teacher. I did not see any suggestion by Bruce on what he should be doing (re: despite his suggestion) - I might have missed it.

In fact, I'm sure that it was meant that way. But for someone who seems to be still at the beginning of learning, such ideas can be taken literally, or they can be taken as a challenge to be met by hook or by crook. This could do harm. It has taken me a lot of time to get over injury and some other after effects from my first studies, and I would not want such things to happen to anyone else. This is NOT something to be aimed for, and it is useless to go down that path.

Well, saying it doesn't mean one should do it, nor does it mean that not saying it will mean the OP won't try to do it anyways. Meaning, it seems he's made up his mind to teach himself this technique, and who knows what he will try to play with it? It's his decision either way.

It's so heartening to read that readers know "what Bruce meant;" it saves me some typing.

I believe it was the OP who raised the challenge in the following excerpts from his posts on this thread (some editing to compensate for his strange spacing):

I have revisited this method again for the last few weeks and I have to say my scales sound less clumsy more even more fluid and overall it is a better sound (2004032)

I didn't say this before but the only other time I saw this method used was by a young guy in sam ash he had a Ukrainian teacher also and he played with the fingers standing straight and I have to say he played the most beautiful scales. (2005962)

[sam ash? Who/What is sam ash?]

the fingers are straight but the hand is held just high enough to allow the fingers to reach the keybed straight in fact I am not sure I know exactly the mechanism but I can assure you with utmost confidence you are wrong in saying that it is impossible to play the scales this way quite the contrary the scales become very fluid I am already starting to see progress
instead of debating the issue why not wait until the end of January after working with this method for a few more weeks I will post another video and you tell me what you see.(2006594)

Admittedly MM = 120 per quarter note might not be a goal for a month-long attempt at reviving this manner of playing scales. So, I'll settle for any tempo - but surely more than one octave and with hands together - that shows fluidity and ease of execution.

Surely only a minimal amount of common sense would dictate that one wouldn't practice this "method" at the ultimate tempo. Let the OP give us what he can in the time he has with the skills available.

Regards,

The OP got the start of some kind of training that would eventually lead somewhere if the teacher's approach is ok. It is not anywhere yet. Right now I'm in remediation getting proper technique for the first time, and anything I have is in between and on its way to becoming something. The difference is that I have a few years experience and this is the second instrument I'm working with, so I understand it a bit more. In my case I know that what I am doing will lead to a technique but I don't have that technique. It is right for me to continue what I am doing. It would be idiotic to "prove" that it will go somewhere by doing something like you suggested. Failing at it also would not prove that the instructions I'm getting are false --- only that this is the wrong time, because the technique is not there.

There is no reason whatsoever that the OP should do this. It's not the stage he is at. There is no benefit, and it could be harmful. Again.

It seems as though you should be arguing with the OP about his technique which either is flawed in concept or in execution (or both) to help prevent him from injuring himself, and not those of us who are also telling him his technique as it is isn't really helping him and that he needs a teacher's guidance.

Haha, only because you said what I was thinking too! I certainly felt that your question of proof along with pianoloverus's were reasonable given the OP's assertions.

Music store. (guitars, keyboards, etc.)

I have insisted all along that your advice to get a teacher's guidance was the route to take. A challenge to play those scales can push in exactly the wrong direction. I think the OP has more sense than that, but still.

Happy New Year, everyone.

My main point is that he seems to want to do this heck-or-high-water no matter what warnings he's been given by any number of qualified teachers and pianists on this site, and has not really provided any definitive proof that it is actually a legit technique.

I appreciate your concern for the OP, and agree, but I don't think he will heed that any more than anything else that has been said. If he injures himself, hopefully he'll have the sense to then seek help to undo his bad (self-taught) habits.

I definitely play at 120 bpm in contrary motion

in fact when I was with this teacher

we had a slight disagreement over speed

I wanted to play at painfully slow speed
and she wanted me to play very rapidly

she said I played slow long enough it was time to put some speed into it

don't worry

for those who are truly interested I will be ready by mid January to demonstrate these scales

no worries

and call me maduro
we are all piano forum family
right?