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#2006131 - 12/29/12 05:08 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Appreciating people's input about these pianos.

So far it's hard to 'agree' or 'disagree' with anything being said.
In fact, nothing of real interest [to me] has been mentioned.

Would love comparing my own musical notes with these pianos against that of others.

Unfortunately no such opportunity yet.

There must be at least one out there....

Norbert
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#2006244 - 12/29/12 08:40 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: turandot]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Quote:
Five years ago I felt the same as you do. I gave a point to Hailun for building under its own name. However, in the meantime Hailun has become the builder and/or major supplier to so many lines with so many names in so many different markets that five years from now, topics here may well come down to "My Hailun is better than your Hailun".



For the past 15 years we have been waiting for the moment where the North American market recognizes a Chinese Piano Maker as a household name but it doesn’t happen. As time goes by China is rapidly developing and it is no longer the cheapest place to build pianos.

Here is the dilemma; there is no consumer confidence and the prices are no longer low enough to lure buyers. A clear statement of the lack of consumer’s confidence is the need of constant and repeated use of a German or European affiliation from a handful of “piano lines” built in China.

After seeing over the years a parade of piano lines from China, all practically with the same marketing structure, I wonder if somebody will change this trend. In my opinion companies as big as Pearl River should have done what the Japanese did back in the sixties, take the beating and practically built a piano only with one name while developing the product to the point that the quality made it an inevitable good value.

However and understandably the Chinese Piano makers have been more concerned with selling more pianos than branding a particular name and therefore instead of having one dealer in a whole region with Pearl River Pianos (for example) they have four dealers all with a different piano made by Pearl River, Dong Bei or whatever the factory happened to be. I thought that Hailun was going to be able to resist the temptation but apparently not.

An example of the value of branding is that Steinway, Kawai and Yamaha have been for a while already making pianos in China or Indonesia and their names are strong enough where consumers continue buying their products regardless.

I wonder if the Chinese Piano makers will change their strategy or just simply continue popping new names as long as possible. However as pianos made by the Chinese Piano makers get more expensive and their piano lines continue being washed out in a market with a slew of pianos with a German connection, it would not be a surprise to see a Chinese Piano maker go out of business or shift manufacturing to a different part of the world.



Edited by Kurtmen (12/29/12 10:30 PM)
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#2006278 - 12/29/12 11:06 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
turandot Offline
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Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7218
Loc: torrance, CA


Edited by turandot (12/31/12 08:39 PM)
Edit Reason: uselss
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#2006280 - 12/29/12 11:17 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Norbert Online   content
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Isn't it nice to sell Estonia and Sauter pianos?

One name - one quality.

And no 911 calls....

Norbert grin
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#2006286 - 12/29/12 11:23 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: Norbert]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1534
Loc: Danville, California
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Isn't it nice to sell Estonia and Sauter pianos?

One name - one quality.

And no 911 calls....

Norbert grin


Well, I will say this (and Norbert and I are not in cahoots)- I have a very close friend who is looking for a great grand piano.

Guess what brands I am going to take him to see next week??

You guessed it.

He is just friggin' tired of the 911 calls on his Steinw.... oops. I slipped.

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#2006356 - 12/30/12 05:10 AM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 436
Loc: Münster, Germany
Originally Posted By: master88er
I am sure I can arrange a visit to Sauter or Steingraeber for you


I have been there as I had a Steingraeber factory training this year. There I saw some Kayserburgs.

Team production is more usual than asembly line in Germany. And to be honest: for the workers it is somehow boring to be specialized in only one production step. In some factories they do only that one step the whole day. E.g. glueing in the hammers as opposed to install and regulate the complete action.

Gregor
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#2006389 - 12/30/12 06:52 AM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Dara Online   blank
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1035
Loc: west coast island, canada
Best wishes "master88er" with Kayserburg Pianos.

Though you are the first (and only?) American seller/distributer, the only website for Kayserberg Pianos showing online is from Australia.... seems rather strange ?
Whether good, indifferent or otherwise it's refreshing to be informed about the use of laminated (veneer) soundboards in all of their pianos. - (on the Australian website).

*edit* - My understanding after further research is that the pianos listed on the Australian Kayserburg website only list the GH grand pianos and UH upright pianos for sale in the Chinese and Australian market ( and possibly other markets ?). The artist series , as you have mentioned, use different components including a solid spruce soundboard.

You state you shall only be introducing upright pianos to begin with.
Do you think there are features that distinguish these instruments from other pianos of high quality/design/components coming out of the current market?


Edited by Dara (12/31/12 09:04 PM)
Edit Reason: added edit above

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#2006493 - 12/30/12 10:52 AM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: Gregor]
Entheo Offline
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Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: master88er
I am sure I can arrange a visit to Sauter or Steingraeber for you


I have been there as I had a Steingraeber factory training this year. There I saw some Kayserburgs.


you saw some kayserburgs... in the steingraeber factory? confused
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#2006494 - 12/30/12 11:06 AM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Those were probably the Steinkayberburgs!
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#2006496 - 12/30/12 11:15 AM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
turandot Offline
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Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7218
Loc: torrance, CA


Edited by turandot (12/31/12 08:40 PM)
Edit Reason: uesless
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#2006557 - 12/30/12 01:35 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Norbert Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
This is the result of an agreement between Pearl River and Steingraeber. Master88er has detailed it before in this forum. It does not mean that Steingraeber pianos are full of Chiense parts. From Steingraeber's end it's about easing entry to the Chinese market for its high-end pianos. From Pearl's end, it's about piano-making expertise. No doubt the patina of a prestige Euro connection doesn't hurt either.


This is 2 years old news and was explained to me in detail by Udo Steingraeber when I was in factory last.

While the world was disbelieving me then with our favorite heroes here laughing,Udo also was.

All the way to the bank...

Norbert
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2006571 - 12/30/12 02:10 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
LFL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/12
Posts: 72
When I saw Master's initial post, I thought "they are following the Shigeru Kawai production model". I may or may not be correct in that thought assessment. Since I am expecting delivery of a new SK5 this week (hopefully....weather has been a problem and see this thread: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1995674
this current thread piqued my interest.
I could be upset that another company is following the Shigeru model; or, I could accept that it is a compliment to Shigeru--an attestation that Shigeru IS a success and should be emulated.
Ultimately, it comes down to sound/action/playability first, cosmetics second, and price third (IMHO)-- and how well the KA's meet these criteria.
_________________________
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#2006680 - 12/30/12 06:25 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Michael Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 364
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Count me in Russel! I'll be there.
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#2006707 - 12/30/12 07:40 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: LFL]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 861
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: LFL
When I saw Master's initial post, I thought "they are following the Shigeru Kawai production model". I may or may not be correct in that thought assessment.


LFL:

Actually, you are not entirely correct or incorrect whome

Much like Kawai, with the GS series followed by the AS series then Shigeiru ( I actually wrote the catalogue for the AS series pianos), who followed Yamaha's example (C series followed by S series followed by CF series), Pearl River decided to start the Kayserburg line once their production line instruments had garnered substantial market penetration world-wide (contrary to a post in this thread that states otherwise - I'll get to him later). A major difference is that Pearl/Kayserburg decided to concentrate first on upright pianos rather than grands. In my opinion, this is a pretty wise move. After all, how many superlative concert grands can the market absorb? But, the market for upright pianos superlative to production line instruments, but not priced in the stratosphere, are few and far between. So I think the Niche for the instruments will be a bridge between those consumers wanting something more than a YUS Yamaha or K8 Kawai, but can't quite commit to purchasing a Sauter, Grotrian or Bechstein. One reason we were the sort of "test market" in San Francisco is that the small dwellings coupled with an arts-oriented and educated consumer are the perfect demographic for these instruments.

Now to the other posts:

Originally Posted By: Norbert

Would love comparing my own musical notes with these pianos against that of others.

Norbert


Dear Norbert: These pianos (KA,KR, KD series) have not been seen/heard by anyone on this continent so your challenge will largely go unmet - as you may well know. The normal Kayserburg series (UH uprights and GH grands), which you have heard, are wonderful instruments but not part of the Artist Series. One major distinction is that the KA/KR/KD series does have a solid European spruce soundboard, unlike the UH/GH series that we test-marketed and is sold domestically in China and in Australia. These are also completely different Thomma designs, with a different pressure bar, scale design, rib design, action design and..well, the whole thing's different!

Let's face it, all the arguing one can do in favor of a well designed/engineered all spruce (aka laminated) board won't convince little Johnny's piano teacher to recommend anything but a solid spruce board. Personally, having marketed these instruments locally, we are finding them extremely stable and holding tuning in the changing climate far superior to the less expensive solid boards. Oh well! Marketing wins out again and the Artist series have solid boards.

Originally Posted By: Kurtmen


An example of the value of branding is that Steinway, Kawai and Yamaha have been for a while already making pianos in China or Indonesia and their names are strong enough where consumers continue buying their products regardless.



Kurtmen: Turandot has already pointed out many of the ludicrous and acrimonious assertions in your post. However, he failed to point out your obvious lack of awareness of how Kawai and Yamaha got started and, arguably, destroyed the American piano industry.

You state:
Originally Posted By: Kurtmen
In my opinion companies as big as Pearl River should have done what the Japanese did back in the sixties, take the beating and practically built a piano only with one name while developing the product to the point that the quality made it an inevitable good value.


One name? Do the names Howard, Marco Polo, Diapason, Shulze and Sons, Scheidmeyer, or Grinell Bros. ring a Kawai bell for you? Or perhaps Story & Clark, Everett, Marshall Field and others in the case of Yamaha? It took Kawai and Yamaha well into their 30th year in the USA to establish a singular brand recognition that rivals others in the industry. The Chinese, IMHO, are doing so in half that amount of time.

Originally Posted By: Kurtmen
...it would not be a surprise to see a Chinese Piano maker go out of business or shift manufacturing to a different part of the world.


You mean like shifting from Japan to Mexico, Korea, the USA, Indonesia, Macao, Taiwan and finally China like Yamaha and Kawai have done in the past, and continue to do?!

Originally Posted By: Michael Taylor
Count me in Russel! I'll be there.


SO, here is a man who put his MONEY down on a Kayserburg. Michael, thanks for being a guinea pig of sorts grin. While your UH 121 Kayserburg is a wonderful piano when compared to other 48" pianos, the Artist series is vastly different and we'll be happy to see you at the event to make the comparison in person.

Which brings me back to the initial post - it is an invitation to meet the Production manager of Pearl River (sorry Kurtmen, but he is Swiss) and was the production director for Bechstein in the late 80's to early 90's. In case you missed it in all this carnival barkery, here it is again:

[img:center] [/img]
_________________________
Russell I. Kassman
R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: SteingraeberGrotrianSauterEstoniaKayserburgBaldwinBrodmannRitmller
www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
510.558.0765

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#2006720 - 12/30/12 08:00 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Maser88er,
You over analyzed my post. My only point was that there is very little consumer confidence in the market for Chinese pianos and the marketing strategies are very similar among companies. I simply think it is time to try something new.

I'm sorry if it bothers you, I was just making an observation about the market from a dealer stand point. Take for example the used market; you can get more money for a 40 years old Yamaha than trying to sell a 1 year old used Kayserbeger or even a Chinese piano with more history.

This is what the market is like, I just pointed out. Anyways good luck in your enterprise I admire your determination.


Edited by Kurtmen (12/30/12 08:01 PM)
_________________________
San Mateo Piano
Purveyors of:
Kawai, Wilh. Steinberg.
Kawai Digital Piano, Pianodisc.
<a href="http://sanmateopiano.com" style="color:#FF0505;font-size:10px;font-family:Times New Roman;text-decoration:underline;" target="_blank" >http://sanmateopiano.com</a>

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#2006823 - 12/31/12 12:28 AM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
that there is very little consumer confidence in the market for Chinese pianos...


Not in China, world's by far largest market for which these pianos have been basically planned.

Maybe 5-10% of these new super-pianos may indeed trickle over to this continent should the Chinese have enough "confidence" selling pianos in this depressed market is worth their while.

Interesting times - better stay tuned....

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (01/27/13 05:02 PM)
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2006846 - 12/31/12 01:55 AM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 861
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Kurtmen

You over analyzed my post. My only point was that there is very little consumer confidence in the market for Chinese pianos and the marketing strategies are very similar among companies.


LOL, your wishing this was true doesn't make it so. In spite of the best efforts of Japanese companies, who quietly build products and components in China and Indonesia, while publicly disparaging the same, the major Chinese companies are doing quite well.

Originally Posted By: kurtmen

I'm sorry if it bothers you, I was just making an observation about the market from a dealer stand point. Take for example the used market; you can get more money for a 40 years old Yamaha than trying to sell a 1 year old used Kayserbeger or even a Chinese piano with more history.


Your "observation" , as disingenuous as it is, is not based on reality. Have you sold a 1 year old Kayserburg , or even seen one? Maybe you are confused, or San Jose is different, but up here in civilization, we are selling used Japanese Kawai pianos for more than their new counterparts. I have yet to see a used haliun, ritmuller or Brodmann. And I am sure you would shout it from a rooftop if you had one.

Originally Posted By: kurtmen

This is what the market is like, I just pointed out. Anyways good luck in your enterprise I admire your determination.


Thank you for the comic relief. While I wish Kayserburg was my enterprise, I am simply the exclusive Bay Area dealer for the product and a marketing consultant to Pearl River.
_________________________
Russell I. Kassman
R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: SteingraeberGrotrianSauterEstoniaKayserburgBaldwinBrodmannRitmller
www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
510.558.0765

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#2006896 - 12/31/12 07:10 AM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 436
Loc: Münster, Germany
Russel, how will these uprights be priced compared to competitors products?
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Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#2006953 - 12/31/12 09:41 AM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: Gregor]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6370
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Russel, how will these uprights be priced compared to competitors products?


You beat me to it - I was just about to ask the same question......
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#2006994 - 12/31/12 10:46 AM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7218
Loc: torrance, CA






Edited by turandot (12/31/12 08:58 PM)
Edit Reason: useless
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#2007065 - 12/31/12 01:33 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: turandot]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 359
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: turandot



Fifty miles is no big deal in CA. I recommend the Eastbay route (not East Beirut! grin)

http://www.rkassman.com/maps.html



Save time for lunch at Picante - a nice little place just around the corner for Russell's shop!

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#2007142 - 12/31/12 04:52 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: turandot]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Quote:
The problem is that it's a broad observation from a dealer down the road in a hotly competitive market. It was clearly inspired by his posting an invitation to a store event. It just looks bad.


I think we all post in this forum at the risk of having somebody reply with a statement we disagree with or even at the risk of people dislike you in the real world, if you are not anonymous.
Your posts are keen and show great grasp of the nuances or fine layers of the piano business.

In good spirit I'll tell you; the judgmental and self righteous position don't equate with an individual of your intellect. wink
_________________________
San Mateo Piano
Purveyors of:
Kawai, Wilh. Steinberg.
Kawai Digital Piano, Pianodisc.
<a href="http://sanmateopiano.com" style="color:#FF0505;font-size:10px;font-family:Times New Roman;text-decoration:underline;" target="_blank" >http://sanmateopiano.com</a>

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#2007160 - 12/31/12 05:48 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 861
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Kurtmen
Quote:
The problem is that it's a broad observation from a dealer down the road in a hotly competitive market. It was clearly inspired by his posting an invitation to a store event. It just looks bad.


I think we all post in this forum at the risk of having somebody reply with a statement we disagree with or even at the risk of people dislike you in the real world, if you are not anonymous.
Your posts are keen and show great grasp of the nuances or fine layers of the piano business.

In good spirit I'll tell you; the judgmental and self righteous position don't equate with an individual of your intellect. wink


_________________________
Russell I. Kassman
R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: SteingraeberGrotrianSauterEstoniaKayserburgBaldwinBrodmannRitmller
www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
510.558.0765

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#2007162 - 12/31/12 05:57 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Guapo Gabacho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/11
Posts: 443
Loc: Rio Grande Valley of Texas
How many "Artists" will switch to a vertical piano?
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#2007166 - 12/31/12 06:15 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN



I completely agree!

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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2007184 - 12/31/12 07:17 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7218
Loc: torrance, CA



Edited by turandot (12/31/12 08:41 PM)
Edit Reason: useless
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#2007203 - 12/31/12 08:24 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: turandot]
musicpassion Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 1040
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: turandot
Kurtmen,

I had no intention of being judgmental or self-righteous. I was simply trying to point out something -- something that is not intellectual or nuanced and does not have many layers. grin Your entry here just looks bad. That's all.

I think it's also fair to assume that half of the 2000 hits Master has gotten on this thread are from recreational users who sense the potential for blood-letting. Still. hits are hits and In that sense you've boosted your competitor's visibility.

It seems that rather than helping things, I'm just becoming part of the circus. so bye for now.



Grab the popcorn and soda.

I'm new here, but I do have an actual question for the thread (or for Master): are their grand pianos going to be at or part of the event? The website lists several models of grands. Somewhere along the way it became unclear to me if the grands were at the event or not.
_________________________
Pianist and Piano Teacher

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#2007216 - 12/31/12 08:46 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1534
Loc: Danville, California
Moderators

May I respectfully suggest that we put this one out of its misery?

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#2007221 - 12/31/12 08:52 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19450
Loc: New York City
It's quite disappointing that a thread about a introduction of a new piano, and especially one that is apparently of high quality, has caused so many negative comments, self promotions, and dealers trashing dealers. Why not just be happy that a new piano will be available instead of making endless predictions and judgements?


Edited by pianoloverus (01/01/13 04:48 AM)

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#2007234 - 12/31/12 09:14 PM Re: USA Debut of Kayserburg Artist Pianos [Re: master88er]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
How Interesting! - Turandot is scrambling to remove his posts before this thread gets locked for all time and eternity.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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