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#2003168 - 12/22/12 04:55 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Susan_B]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3779
Loc: North Carolina
Good points. But I wonder about the costs you mention.

Shouldn't it be possible to price hybrids lower than most baby grands?

Consider that the AGs don't need a fine quality rim. And the rim they have is smaller than even the smallest baby grand.

Also, they don't have a sound board. They don't have a plate. And they don't require all of the fine labor needed to make and fit those items.

As such, I think the AGs are grotesquely overpriced. Throw some competition in there and the price might drop. A lot.

But, so far, the demand for these pianos is small. So is the market rich enough to attract additional players?

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#2003183 - 12/22/12 05:27 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: MacMacMac]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
As such, I think the AGs are grotesquely overpriced.

I think most DPs are way overpriced. I mean, I can see paying more for say a Kawai wooden key action, where some effort, time, and skill has to go into the construction and assembly. But the vast majority of DPs are hunks of plastic with cheap speakers, asthmatic processors, and virtually no memory. If there were real competition at work in this market then something like the P95 would be selling for $199 tops IMO.

Also MacMacMac, I agree completely with your previous post in this thread.
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#2003189 - 12/22/12 05:41 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: dewster]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: dewster
I mean, I can see paying more for say a Kawai wooden key action, where some effort, time, and skill has to go into the construction and assembly.


I wonder about that. Actually Kawai's actions are pretty dang simple. I wonder if they really cost more to develop/build. It's not that I don't like them (I own one) but I think all these things are expensive primarily because the volume is pretty low, not because the materials or workmanship is inherenty costly. Just a gut feeling.

The AG action, on the other hand, is very complex, as are all acoustic grand actions. Luckily they have factories that kick them out a zillion at a time so they don't have to develop them or set up much specialized equipment.

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#2003199 - 12/22/12 06:02 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: gvfarns]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I wonder about that. Actually Kawai's actions are pretty dang simple. I wonder if they really cost more to develop/build.

Simpler than real piano keys definitely, but I would think they are more difficult to manufacture than 100% plastic keys, no? There's woodworking involved, all those paper washers to stack, and the threaded hammer thingie.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
It's not that I don't like them (I own one) but I think all these things are expensive primarily because the volume is pretty low, not because the materials or workmanship is inherenty costly. Just a gut feeling.

Good point.

I wonder what the worldwide sales figures are for DPs vs. guitars? 1:5? 1:10? Guitars sell for considerably less than I would expect given the input labor, though I suppose we do have plenty of effectively slave labor lately.
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#2003204 - 12/22/12 06:12 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: dewster]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: dewster
Simpler than real piano keys definitely, but I would think they are more difficult to manufacture than 100% plastic keys, no? There's woodworking involved, all those paper washers to stack, and the threaded hammer thingie.


You know, I had forgotten about those paper things. I wonder if they are actually installed by hand (or whether they have a machine that does it). An exceptional amount of work seems to go into regulating an acoustic action and if even a small fraction of that is spent on Kawai's wood action, it could add up.

We really need someone to make a documentary video going through one of these factories so we know how it's done. Those types of videos seem pretty easy to find on the acoustic side. Not so much on the digital.

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#2003218 - 12/22/12 07:04 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Susan_B]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3779
Loc: North Carolina
The keyboard (and other) labor in the better Kawai actions would make an interesting video. But I think there are other important considerations, ones that have nothing to do with what happens in production.

The selling price of an item is driven by more than just material, labor, transportation and distribution costs, fixed overhead business costs, and some margin of profit. Those costs only dictate a minimum possible selling price.

Cachet, prestige, and other gloss help drive demand. Smart marketing works to convince a customer that a product is worth more, simply because it's portrayed as more special.

As an extreme case: My wife used to tell a story about how she, as a small child, would sell rocks to neighbors. Nice rocks, mind you: geodes or some sort of crystallized neat stuff. But still, just rocks. For a dime.

Fifteen years later some schmuck got rich when he went national and sold rocks ("Pet Rocks") for a pretty penny.

Perceived value can be driven more by hyped and false perception than by anything of real substance.

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#2003411 - 12/23/12 08:42 AM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Susan_B]
oivavoi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 46
Loc: Norway
Obviously I'm not an expert on price issues related to hybirds or digitals, but here's my thoughts, for what it's worth: For me it seems clear that at least the N2 and N3 Avantgrand are grossly overpriced - and probably the N1 as well. Look at the NU-1, it is so much more cheaper - but how much cheaper can it be, production-wise, to put an upright action in there in stead of the grand action that they already HAD developed for the older models? Pretty obvious that they did it in order to distinguish the lower-end model from the others, and thus keep people buying the N1 and N2. I think they could slash the N2 price almost in half and still make a profit, probably. Therefore: If I'm right about this, it should indeed be possible for Kawai or others to make something that is as good (or almost as good) as the N2, sell it cheaper, and still make a profit. Obviously Yamaha would then lower their prices - but that would only be good for us consumers:)

Concerning my proposal to integrate a mini-computer that runs a software piano inside a hybrid: I honestly think that it doesn't have to be that expensive. Such a pc could be tailor made to ONLY run VSTs. They could do it simple by developing a linux-based system and put it on a basic chip, putting in 20 gigs of ssd and 4 gigs of ram, a sound card, a USB connection to add the VST software, and voila - there you have it (take the new Raspberry Pi, for example - 25 dollars, and fully functional as a linux-based media center pc: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/entertainment-cheap-affordable-ways-set-home-theater/). As fas as I know most VSTs today require OSX or Windows, but I guess the manufacturer of such a hybrid could cooperate with one of the VST companies in developing a linux VST package that would work. This is not that big a deal - obviously it would raise the price somewhat, but I don't think it would have to cost more than 100-150 dollars extra (at most) in production cost for each unit (based on my very amateurish understanding, of course).
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#2003445 - 12/23/12 10:17 AM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Susan_B]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
I think the big for-profit suppliers of OSes and processors have hobbled embedded computing for a couple of decades now. I bought my first 286 with the intention of using it as a general purpose hardware but found that both the processor and the OS were total dogs, almost a complete impediment to getting anything real done at the lowest level.

With Linux and ARM we're seeing an explosion of development and equivalent computing power at a much lower price point. It's too bad ARM isn't open source, but it's more efficient and flexible than the creaky old bloated Intel architectures.
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#2003446 - 12/23/12 10:19 AM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: dewster]
Karnevil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 154
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
As such, I think the AGs are grotesquely overpriced.

I think most DPs are way overpriced. I mean, I can see paying more for say a Kawai wooden key action, where some effort, time, and skill has to go into the construction and assembly. But the vast majority of DPs are hunks of plastic with cheap speakers, asthmatic processors, and virtually no memory. If there were real competition at work in this market then something like the P95 would be selling for $199 tops IMO.

Also MacMacMac, I agree completely with your previous post in this thread.


You got it, and the fact is that Yamaha cut several corners with the AvantGrands. I don't know if it's just sloppyness or consciously trying to make AvantGrands inferior "enough" to their acoustic pianos. They cut corners with the soft pedal (only on/off), the CPU/DSP (it takes 10 seconds to process a short midi-recording WTF?!, and there's still some very slight lag when performing big multioctave chordal sections with sustain pedal), the damper pedal/DSP (too simplistic effect, unaturally boosts the volume), too short samples/being cheap on RAM which is very inexpensive these days, boxy speaker sound from the N1, which is still a very expensive instrument (don't know how the N2 speakers fare in comparison)..
Another thing is that an acoustic piano will have a lighter touch with the sustain pedal pressed down, this detail is not present on either of the AvantGrands (this would however be difficult to mimic without some serious extra hardware and price increase). The AvantGrands' double-escapement is also a bit "iffy" for playing very fast note repeats.

Anyway, AvantGrands are still the best digital pianos on the market, and I don't regret for a second getting the N1 instead of the N2/N3. The way I see it, the N2/N3 core features (samples and action/pedal response) are in essence the same as N1, which makes them even more grossly overpriced. (For instance the more expensive keytop material used on N2/N3 is not as good as Yamaha's HQ acoustic grands.)
I would certainly welcome more competitions with hybrid pianos (Kawai etc.), that would almost certainly lower the price and further improve the quality.
Having said all this, I'm very happy with my N1 as a practice instrument, and it is certainly very useful for proper practicing without annoying the neighbours or family members. But should it have been even better (with proper 2012 technology)? Yes!

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#2003525 - 12/23/12 02:13 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Karnevil]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Karnevil
I don't know if it's just sloppyness or consciously trying to make AvantGrands inferior "enough" to their acoustic pianos.

Very interesting observations Karnevil, thanks!

I think what happened with the AG is they called their AP guys into the room and had them modify a short grand mechanism so it suited their DP keyboard guys, who then instrumented it with light pipes & shutters. Then they called their DP sound guys into the room and all they could do was whip out the same old $5 processor and $1 memory they've been using since the dawn of time and everyone else threw up their hands (and lunch). Since this is industry and there is never enough time to do it right the first time, they bolted it all together, shoved it out the door, and called it a day. Marketing then stepped in and hyped it into the stratosphere.

I'm continually flabbergasted that Yamaha can't get sympathetic resonance right, even on a sky's-the-limit kind of product. It's such a fundamental and conspicuous aspect of AP sound.
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#2003583 - 12/23/12 05:17 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Susan_B]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
To the original poster, try to keep enjoying your new piano even those others will continue to loudly proclaim why you shouldn't enjoy it. wink
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#2003585 - 12/23/12 05:28 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Susan_B]
Susan_B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 48
Loc: United States
Thank you, Dave. I intend to do just that! I'm looking forward to an afternoon of practice.
_________________________
Yamaha Avantgrand N1

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#2003652 - 12/23/12 08:06 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Susan_B]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3779
Loc: North Carolina
I don't think dewster wishes that anyone should dislike the AG. He's simply reiterating that, for the money, he expects more.

In the end, he seems to think that the AG is just yet another Clavinova clone, but this time with a real piano action. IMPO, such a piano ought not cost as much as a baby grand acoustic piano. But it does! That's the disappointment.

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#2003654 - 12/23/12 08:14 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Dave Horne]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
"It is well for the heart to be naive and the mind not to be." Anatole France
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#2003807 - 12/24/12 08:02 AM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: dewster]
Karnevil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 154
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Karnevil
I don't know if it's just sloppyness or consciously trying to make AvantGrands inferior "enough" to their acoustic pianos.

Very interesting observations Karnevil, thanks!

I think what happened with the AG is they called their AP guys into the room and had them modify a short grand mechanism so it suited their DP keyboard guys, who then instrumented it with light pipes & shutters. Then they called their DP sound guys into the room and all they could do was whip out the same old $5 processor and $1 memory they've been using since the dawn of time and everyone else threw up their hands (and lunch). Since this is industry and there is never enough time to do it right the first time, they bolted it all together, shoved it out the door, and called it a day. Marketing then stepped in and hyped it into the stratosphere.

I'm continually flabbergasted that Yamaha can't get sympathetic resonance right, even on a sky's-the-limit kind of product. It's such a fundamental and conspicuous aspect of AP sound.


smile That's a witty observation, but I think you're pretty close to the truth there!

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#2003875 - 12/24/12 10:17 AM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Karnevil]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: Karnevil
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Karnevil
I don't know if it's just sloppyness or consciously trying to make AvantGrands inferior "enough" to their acoustic pianos.

Very interesting observations Karnevil, thanks!

I think what happened with the AG is they called their AP guys into the room and had them modify a short grand mechanism so it suited their DP keyboard guys, who then instrumented it with light pipes & shutters. Then they called their DP sound guys into the room and all they could do was whip out the same old $5 processor and $1 memory they've been using since the dawn of time and everyone else threw up their hands (and lunch). Since this is industry and there is never enough time to do it right the first time, they bolted it all together, shoved it out the door, and called it a day. Marketing then stepped in and hyped it into the stratosphere.

I'm continually flabbergasted that Yamaha can't get sympathetic resonance right, even on a sky's-the-limit kind of product. It's such a fundamental and conspicuous aspect of AP sound.


smile That's a witty observation, but I think you're pretty close to the truth there!


+1

K.
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#2004004 - 12/24/12 02:53 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: MacMacMac]
KarelG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 145
Loc: Czech Republic
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
[...]
Also, they don't have a sound board. They don't have a plate. And they don't require all of the fine labor needed to make and fit those items.

I've thought the OP I've replied asked Kawai to make such hybrid a reality. When I see CA95 it looks like Kawai is going to "soundboard inside" the most expensive DPs for a good reason (at least based on the claims here on this forum), so for *good* hybrid you certainly need some kind of soundboard, otherwise its functionality will be limited in comparison with at least CA95. I agree with your argument that the rim and whole construction doesn't need to be so heavy as there are no strings, but still it needs soundboard...
Also if you consider AG overpriced (it is indeed), then what you would claim about CA95? Is it overpriced too or not? Certainly here it is on the price of quite good uprights...
_________________________
November 2011: piano entered into my life.

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#2004011 - 12/24/12 03:11 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Susan_B]
KarelG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 145
Loc: Czech Republic
Honestly speaking I really do not understand all those complains about Yamaha being not good and using $5 CPU and $1 RAM for their flagship DP like AG is. Guys, come on, what's the problem? If you would have Yamaha shares you will be the first who would complain about too good DP torpeding their AP lines and sales! Ditto applies to Kawai and do not forget whole this hybrid market is *small* (just IMHO!). Your R&D needs to be covered by future sales and in addition you need to make board of the company happy. No, it's not the problem to make an ultimate DP/hybrid. The problem is only a lack of money and time for such development. If you are not happy with current AG's sounds why you don't connect some preferred VST to it for a fraction of its price and be happy indefinitely? Why are you complaining? When I've been in a search for a good DP I've also considered AG N1 but seeing this price I've decided to contact Petrof for their MIDI keyboard with real grand action price. They told me a price of N1 +25% up. Add to this VST, amplifier(s), computer, OS license (if needed), repros etc. and where you end? IMHO on the price of small Chinese based grand. Now, what would market prefer more? Such "unlimited" DP or small real grand? Risky decision to go into such business...(unlimited in quotes as I still think such DP will sound like a recorded piano which is completely incomparable with real AP grand even small IMHO).
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#2004025 - 12/24/12 03:32 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: KarelG]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: KarelG
When I've been in a search for a good DP I've also considered AG N1 but seeing this price I've decided to contact Petrof for their MIDI keyboard with real grand action price. They told me a price of N1 +25% up.


Whaaaaa? I contacted Petrof as well and they never got back to me. I figured the product was vaporware.

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#2004041 - 12/24/12 04:24 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: KarelG]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: KarelG
If you are not happy with current AG's sounds why you don't connect some preferred VST to it for a fraction of its price and be happy indefinitely? Why are you complaining?

Some of us need recording quality turnkey solutions and can't deal with all the PCs, software, wires, boot time, etc. One would think the "Digital Piano" industry would offer such a product, even if greatly overpriced. Hence the crabbing, particularly in light of superior VSTs for the past decade or so now.
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#2004044 - 12/24/12 04:33 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Susan_B]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
Here's a couple things I've noticed about the N2. First, unlike any other gadget in my house, including vacuums and kitchen appliances, the N2 causes a non-digital baby monitor to go berserk -- RF interference/poor shielding. Second, the AG seems, itself, sensitive to AC line noise -- emitting a hiss sometimes. I haven't sorted out the second gremlin yet; I may need to clean up the AC current with one of those audiophile gizmos that I had heretofore thought was hokum. As for the first, I upgraded to digital baby monitors. But still, the RF interference struck me as a throwback to electronics of earlier times -- consistent, mind you, with slow boot ups, slow saves of MIDI recordings, and a requirement that all small hands be kept OFF the keyboard during startup.

I should be clear about the RF interference issue: it's minor. After about ten minutes of being turned on, my N2 would cause an Angelcare baby monitor receiving unit to crackle. I've replaced that with a monitor made by Motorola. The AG otherwise does not interfere with anything else in the house that I've noticed. It struck me as odd that the AG had to be on for a while (regardless of it being played) for any interference to occur. About 10 minutes, as I recall.


Edited by kippesc (12/24/12 05:04 PM)
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#2004294 - 12/25/12 12:58 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: dewster]
KarelG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 145
Loc: Czech Republic
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: KarelG
If you are not happy with current AG's sounds why you don't connect some preferred VST to it for a fraction of its price and be happy indefinitely? Why are you complaining?

Some of us need recording quality turnkey solutions and can't deal with all the PCs, software, wires, boot time, etc. One would think the "Digital Piano" industry would offer such a product, even if greatly overpriced. Hence the crabbing, particularly in light of superior VSTs for the past decade or so now.

Looks like Yamaha is not able to provide one for whatever reason. Kawai stays a little lower and not providing real grand action. Do you think there is a market for such turn a key solution? Just one additional box with two cables connected to Yamaha or even built inside while avoiding the Yamaha's original warranty? How many boxes of such functionality one would be able to sell for let say $2k? Don't know the DP market just know few complaining pianists here hence I'm asking...
_________________________
November 2011: piano entered into my life.

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#2004305 - 12/25/12 01:38 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: KarelG]
Carlos-CR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Originally Posted By: KarelG
Honestly speaking I really do not understand all those complains about Yamaha being not good and using $5 CPU and $1 RAM for their flagship DP like AG is....


You don't understand why we complain?

Are you a shareholder of yamaha or are you a buyer?

If you are in the first group, I understand your post, but if you, as I am, are in the second group then I seriously can't understand what you don't understand. You are shooting yourself in the pocket, I mean in the foot with that kind of reasoning.

And in the end, I think that companies that try to milk customers to the last drop like Yamaha (and others) is doing are throwing their brand in the trashcan.

Just my opinion

Carlos

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#2004308 - 12/25/12 01:50 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Susan_B]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3779
Loc: North Carolina
Is Yamaha's brand "in the trashcan"? I don't think so.

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#2004317 - 12/25/12 02:36 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Carlos-CR]
KarelG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 145
Loc: Czech Republic
Originally Posted By: Carlos-CR
Originally Posted By: KarelG
Honestly speaking I really do not understand all those complains about Yamaha being not good and using $5 CPU and $1 RAM for their flagship DP like AG is....


You don't understand why we complain?

Are you a shareholder of yamaha or are you a buyer?

If you are in the first group, I understand your post, but if you, as I am, are in the second group then I seriously can't understand what you don't understand. You are shooting yourself in the pocket, I mean in the foot with that kind of reasoning.

And in the end, I think that companies that try to milk customers to the last drop like Yamaha (and others) is doing are throwing their brand in the trashcan.

Just my opinion

Carlos


Carlos,

everything in this world does have its own price. Yamaha decided in certain hardware class and you as a buyer may either buy or ask for lower more acceptable price or turn to Yamaha's competition or give up DPs completely and go AP route. So you are perfectly free and nobody forces you into buying Yamaha. Yet, if you buy it you still do have a lot of options how to increase its sound quality with the fraction of its original price. So where is the issue? You mean that Yamaha will learn something from your complains on this forum like probably do smaller competitors? Yamaha is too big and too arrogant for doing something like that. So good, your complains are well saved inside the forum, everybody is able to google for them and made his/her own decision about AG series. If nobody buys this piano, then Yamaha will probably need to do something with the situation. And that's probably the only possibility of feedback we can provide to Yamaha. Certainly, I've decided to not buy AG at least not yet as my chosen combination is an old AP and hopefully complemented by ES7 or MP10 successor in the future for just those occasions I need to play silently or somewhere else than in my home...
No, I'm not Yamaha share holder. And I agree with you that Yamaha is milking their customers on AG line (but so is Roland right with their V-Piano line), but on the other hand doing the DP business is not charity and you need first to make your shareholders happy unfortunately.

Happy holidays time!
Karel
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November 2011: piano entered into my life.

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#2004326 - 12/25/12 03:13 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: Susan_B]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2392
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Maybe I'm naive but I think there are a lot of dedicated, enthusiastic and talented people at work within Yamaha, Roland, Korg, Kawai and the others. It is part of human nature - even when there are shareholders to please - to want to improve and innovate. And whilst I agree there is some substance to many of the criticisms aired here I think they are made without real knowledge of the realities of the design and manufacture of these products. And yes, these companies have to be profitable. But I don't see how or where Yamaha (or Roland) are milking their customers to the last drop.

I'd be very interested (if we could read minds) to see if we could find a single person within Yamaha or any other manufacturer who doesn't want their customers to be happy and for them to feel that they have bought a good product. That is what I would want if I was in this business and that is what all of you would want. So why do we find it so easy to assume that the personnel within Yamaha are a breed apart and apparently share none of these values? Not only is that unfair it is downright illogical to my mind.

Anyway, you can all shoot me down now.... grin
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2004336 - 12/25/12 03:48 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: gvfarns]
KarelG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 145
Loc: Czech Republic
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: KarelG
When I've been in a search for a good DP I've also considered AG N1 but seeing this price I've decided to contact Petrof for their MIDI keyboard with real grand action price. They told me a price of N1 +25% up.


Whaaaaa? I contacted Petrof as well and they never got back to me. I figured the product was vaporware.


No, it's certainly not vaporware, but it's probably made on request by a customer like their master series of concert grands. My advantage over you asking them was probably usage of Czech.
_________________________
November 2011: piano entered into my life.

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#2004908 - 12/27/12 11:37 AM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: MacMacMac]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4806
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
I don't think dewster wishes that anyone should dislike the AG. He's simply reiterating that, for the money, he expects more.

In the end, he seems to think that the AG is just yet another Clavinova clone, but this time with a real piano action. IMPO, such a piano ought not cost as much as a baby grand acoustic piano. But it does! That's the disappointment.


If you disregard its key action, the AG's sound and response is really no different to any other CLP costing a fraction of the AG's price. As purely a practice instrument, it works if you don't mind an action that's heavier than most real acoustic grands (and you also have a real piano to practise on to refine your touch and tone color and dynamics), but as a substitute for a real piano, it just doesn't cut the mustard.

IMO, the NU1 is far better value for money, with a nicer sound and slightly broader range of color (from the CFX), and its action is lighter and more like a real piano's (upright or grand), and frankly, more pleasant to play on for long periods. As for its upright action, as I've mentioned before when reviewing it and comparing it with the AG, it doesn't feel inferior. Grand piano action is supposed to allow more rapid repeated notes (assuming you have the chops for it), but the action in the AG is more sluggish and heavy (too much so, IMO) than that of the NU1 and really difficult to repeat notes fast.

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#2005076 - 12/27/12 05:14 PM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: bennevis]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2392
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: bennevis
If you disregard its key action, the AG's sound and response is really no different to any other CLP costing a fraction of the AG's price.


Simply not true. Subjectively it is a world apart from Clavinovas and Dewster's testing shows that technically it is different, significantly out-performing all other Yamaha DPs. It is a long way from perfect (I enjoy my modest upright piano more) but to say it is the same as a Clavinova is just not true. In fact it's a lie pedalled by someone with the strongest bias on this forum, ie, someone who doesn't own one, has no desire or intention to own one, and indeed has no intrinsic interest in or ownership experience of DPs in general, but who feels the need to slag the instrument off on every thread possible. We all know why of course. Transparently pathetic.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2005313 - 12/28/12 04:52 AM Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! [Re: MacMacMac]
Carlos-CR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Is Yamaha's brand "in the trashcan"? I don't think so.


Not yet?

I can only speak for myself, but their image has deteriorated to my eyes since I bought a CVP-305 some years ago. I've looked at the following CVP iterations and sincerely can say there have been much of an improvement if at all. On the contrary, the equivalent model cvp505 seems to lack string resonance. frown

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