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#2005109 - 12/27/12 06:33 PM Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 359
Loc: Colorado
My tech uses TuneLab when tuning my piano (I am on a 6 month rotation.) Between tunings I would like to check the tuning from time to time to see if I need a "freshen up" when I am having a party. Does anyone know of a decent free (or very low cost) ETD software program to use on an iPhone that can help me out?

I know I will not be able to check unisons, but at least I would have an idea if I am still close to being in tune.

Thanks,

Jonathan

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#2005122 - 12/27/12 07:01 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3336
Yes. Your ears. If it is sour to your ears, get it tuned, if not, wait until your six month tuning. Tunelab 97 is available for free, but you will have to teach yourself how to use it.... probably not worth the effort.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2005176 - 12/27/12 09:02 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1968
Loc: Philadelphia area
I agree.. you are most probably already equipped with the best thing to check a tuning with.

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#2005191 - 12/27/12 09:23 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2098
Loc: Maine
And it's ... FREE!
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2005194 - 12/27/12 09:27 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
Tunelab has a shareware version for laptops that is fully functional. It will briefly time out every few minutes to remind you to think about buying the software.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2005234 - 12/27/12 10:49 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 359
Loc: Colorado
Thanks for the suggestions.

Jonathan

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#2005314 - 12/28/12 05:04 AM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Alford
Between tunings I would like to check the tuning from time to time to see if I need a "freshen up" when I am having a party. Does anyone know of a decent free (or very low cost) ETD software program to use on an iPhone that can help me out?

nTrack Tuner is a free iPhone app. It measures frequencies to two decimal places and shows you the strength of the partials. Just note down the frequencies of each key immediately after a tuning and you will be able to tell how much any note has moved. There may be other such apps.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2005575 - 12/28/12 01:38 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 274
Loc: Scotland
There is a free trial version of Tunelab, though I don't know if the free trial version is available in the iPhone version.

But if it's jsut for between tunings, your ear should tell you if any unisons are a bit out.

Check it out on the website, tunelab-world.com


Edited by David Boyce (12/28/12 01:39 PM)

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#2005583 - 12/28/12 01:49 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: David Boyce]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
What is the advantage of Tunelab 97 to the pianist for checking a tuning over an app that measures the frequencies?

How would the the pianist's version know exactly how the piano had been tuned?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2005631 - 12/28/12 03:12 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Withindale]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3336
Originally Posted By: Withindale
What is the advantage of Tunelab 97 to the pianist for checking a tuning over an app that measures the frequencies?



That is not accurate at all. The only known quantity is the note you tune to (i.e. usually the A above middle C). For every other note, there will be a discrepancy between theoretical and practical tuning.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2005637 - 12/28/12 03:17 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Withindale]
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 283
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: Withindale
What is the advantage of Tunelab 97 to the pianist for checking a tuning over an app that measures the frequencies?

How would the the pianist's version know exactly how the piano had been tuned?

Neither TuneLab nor nTrack Tuner would be very good at "checking" if the piano needs tuning, except grossly. As others have said the very best way to check if a tuning has drifted out of tune is to listen to the unisons and train yourself to hear beats. Unisons are the first thing to go out of tune noticeably. If the absolute pitch does change it is quite likely due to seasonal changes in humidity, and it might be a waste of time to chase those variations, unless you are running a recording studio or a concert hall. A two cent overall seasonal change would hardly be noticeable. But a two cent change in just one string of a unison will sound quite bad.
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#2005674 - 12/28/12 04:53 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Robert Scott]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
I agree with Robert, but could there be a place for an electronic tuning checking device?

For example for piano owners who are aware that some of their friends are better at detecting when a piano is drifting out of tune.

As far as this thread goes, B986 is absolutely correct in saying that there is no point in using a theoretical tuning as the basis for comparison.

What one must do is measure the actual frequencies of the notes you wrote down immediately after tuning and compare them with the actual frequencies some time later. That was the proposed method of using the nTrackTuner on the iPhone.

PS In the next post Kamin mentions Dirk's tuner. That uses a theoretical tuning for comparison but one that is based on the actual sounds of each key. It is not available on iPhone as far as I know.


Edited by Withindale (12/29/12 02:57 PM)
Edit Reason: PS
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2005890 - 12/29/12 05:14 AM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7539
Loc: France
you could use the evaluation version of Dirk software, and compare the tuning with the curve computed which is really neat, beat wise.

The first sequence make you record all the notes, then the software compute with an optimized pattern using Hz(beats). So what you see at the screen is how the actual tuning relates to that (supposed optimal) tuning curve.

No need to use parameters or to tweak a "flat" curve, and that is how that software can be used by non tuners.

They may learn then to correlate what the graph show and what they hear. I am not so unsure a pianist cannot hear too compressed intervals or the opposite, if a graph is showing that at that moment.


Edited by Kamin (12/29/12 05:22 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2006176 - 12/29/12 06:30 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: beethoven986]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 274
Loc: Scotland
Quote:
What is the advantage of Tunelab 97 to the pianist for checking a tuning over an app that measures the frequencies?


I don't really understand that question. All tuning apps work by measuring frequencies.

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#2006187 - 12/29/12 06:58 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
What you can do is ask your tech for the tuning file that he used on your piano.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2006212 - 12/29/12 07:47 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: David Boyce]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: David Boyce
Quote:
What is the advantage of Tunelab 97 to the pianist for checking a tuning over an app that measures the frequencies?


I don't really understand that question. All tuning apps work by measuring frequencies.


ETDs do more than measure frequencies but the OP only needs to measure frequencies. A free iPhone app is all that is necessary.

"an app that only measures frequencies" would have been clearer.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2006225 - 12/29/12 08:11 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: rysowers]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 359
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: rysowers
What you can do is ask your tech for the tuning file that he used on your piano.


Based on the replies, I seem to be in way over my head. This sounds like the simpliest thing to do except that I have no idea what to do with the file when I get it.

Jonathan

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#2006233 - 12/29/12 08:23 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
If you download tunelab, you should be able to open the tuning file. It is basically a record of the template that the tuner used to tune your piano. You'll need to take some time to read the help files and tutorial that come with the software - so there is a learning curve.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2006405 - 12/30/12 07:46 AM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7539
Loc: France
Before ETD, musicians used a fork and tested pitch of the A440-42 (or the C in anglo saxon world I suppose)

Knowing that the pitch fluctuates and that at some point it is too low for the instrument to sound well..

But those where old methods, and we know today that once the wire have settle after enough tunings, the give of the metal is only due to brutal playing and excessive motion up and down of the pitch due to soundboard motion and temperature changes.

So a seasoned piano will keep its pitch (anyway enough to be unnoticed without precise testing) it may take 5 to 10 years most probably.

Then, on the opposite, old strings have lost too much springiness and will begin to deform under heavy playing. lest say strings in the 30-40 years range to simplify.

Meantime, maintenance tunings could well be done without pitch corrections (maximum difference between the pitch wanted and existing pitch about 1 Hz.

Most of the motion happening in the instrument is in the mediums and the high bass, the high treble rarely fluctuates, as the first basses, SOme of my tunings are mostly a temperament correction, a few notes that moved out of range, and unison "warming" This allow for some hammer to string mating work, screw checking/tightening, evening of the tone by needling, some regulation corretcions (as raising a few keys that need a silk paper punching), so even if the real tuning time I spend is often not long, my price is higher than for a real tuning, but I leave the piano with a magnified tone, not only a piano "tuned".

With that simple and just a little longer work, non asked comments are that the piano is "magnificent" with often phone calls and mails a few days later, so it is worth the trouble for the customer as for me (more tools, the bag is heavier)

Due to time constrains or rough technique I notice that many tuners dont set the pin strong enough to hold in time or do not aim for long term stability. As the customer ask for them on a regular basis I suspect that the tuner himself is not aware of the instability, the piano is known to be tuned at last each year and that is all.


Also, the more the pin is manipulated the more the block wears, so limiting those moves is a guarantee to keep the pinblock in condition years after years (a lot of little motions with much pressure on a side of the hole is making it oblong sooner, and make the inside slippery more than slow well mastered motion)

To go back to the original question, testing pitch of all A's with Tunelab, after the tuning, writing the numbers on a paper, and testing them on a regular basis will show the pianist how his tuning evolve.
Indeed he may learn to recognise moaning unissons, beats (false and reals) they even can be seen in the Tunelab display as different peaks.

I am a little not at ease with such questions : I want something that do a professional check for me and that for free ! You may explayn the software developper that, I never was given a pitch fork or a tool for free (in fact yes but usually ...)

Nothing is free, even the time I spend writing here I could use to do more useful things for my famil, me or my customers !
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2006479 - 12/30/12 10:31 AM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
I agree: use your ears! Or just call me, and play your piano over the phone. I'll measure it for you! (If you're already a customer of mine! :-)

On most pianos, the octave below middle C changes the most with humidity changes. If you play the A above middle C (A440) with the A an octave below it, that's usually an octave that sounds bad first.

Another easy test is to play octaves of the same note in both hands, and go up and down chromatically. For example, play middle C and the C above it in the right hand, and the two C's just below middle C in the left hand. Then go up to C# in both hands, and so on. Compare the sound of the octaves, and listen for "wavering" or "watery" sounds (beats) as opposed to clean, steady sounds. This exposes problems with individual notes as well as octaves and double and triple octaves.

You can use any guitar tuner app to measure notes for about an octave on either side of middle C. After that, offsets will vary too much to be useful. Cleartune is one chromatic tuning app that will let you enter offsets for each note, so that I could give you offsets for all the A's, for example, after I calculate a tuning for your piano.

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

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#2006633 - 12/30/12 04:22 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 359
Loc: Colorado
Thanks for all the replies - my tech has contacted me about the possibility of using the tunelab method.

Kamin - I agree - I probably chose my words carelessly. Free was not the correct word to use - most likely it should be "affordable." The reason being is the full tuning versions I have seen were ranging from $300-$1000 - this to me was not affordable for the job I want done.

Thanks again,

Jonathan

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#2006821 - 12/31/12 12:13 AM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
Tuning discrimination is an important aspect of developing musicianship. You would not be a complete musician without it.

Once you have found an ideal ETD, how are you going to use it? There are degrees of out of tune, at what amount of deviation will you declare the piano out of tune? Tuning is all relative and even if someone gave you a deviation figure, it will be different for you, one way or another. There is also the stack up of tolerances, that is, if one note registers within the tolerance limit and another note that forms an interval with that note registers within tolerance in the opposite direction, it would sound out of tune while the ETD is telling you everything is within tolerance.

Your tuning discrimination is most likely better than you think. While messing with EDTs is fun and can be useful if you fully understand pitch relationships, don't neglect your trust of your own perceptions and let your pitch discrimination develop with the rest of your musicianship.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2007062 - 12/31/12 01:30 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Last night I tried Cy Shuster's excellent suggestion of playing octaves on the old grand I am tinkering with, then I noticed a persistent hum after playing F#3.

The piano needs tuning anyway after two moves, and setting the strings had put some of its unisons out, especially C5.

I decided to try electronics this morning for fun, spurred on by this thread. It was too much to move my laptop, rig up a microphone and run Tunelab 97 so I opted to see what n-Track Tuner would tell me on my iPhone:



The F#3 hum plot showed some sub harmonics and it turned out, by trial and error, the cause of the hum was the B0 damper.

To my surprise I found n-Track Tuner allows you to check unisons as it displays the frequencies it finds, one after the other. For instance my out of tune C5 ranged from 517 to 524 Hz compared to C4 at 261.5 to 261.7 Hz.

n-Track Tuner displays offsets as percentages in red or green. As a rough and ready rule of thumb everything above A4 should be green, and red below. You need to pay attention to the numbers too.

Best of all n-Track Tuner shows you the partials the piano produces for each note. This means you can see how they vary from soft to loud, from note to note, and from piano to piano. This could be a useful yardstick when thinking about voicing.

Not bad for a free app.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2007098 - 12/31/12 02:50 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7539
Loc: France
Does it show that your piano is tuned at 450 Hz , or is the Iphone in need of calibration ?

The range of frequencies the Iphone and other can check is OK for the mediums and up to some note in the 6th octave, but when going toward the basses the limit is soon attained (at last it was a few years ago, possibly the circuitry is better now)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2007128 - 12/31/12 04:28 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Olek]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Well spotted. The screen showing A at 450 Hz was from the web and the piano is actually at 440 Hz. I've changed it to another one to avoid confusing others.

This version on iPhone 3G worked up to Bb7 and appeared to fail at B7 until I noticed (and heard) that they were tuned the same.



I suppose the improved mic in the 3G (and presumably later versions) makes Tunelab possible for the iPhone.

The app tracked the notes down to about A1. Below that I believe fundamental partials are problematic anyway but the n-Track Tuner displayed the partials and followed the most prominent dynamically.

_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2007279 - 12/31/12 11:40 PM Re: Does anyone know of a free decent ETD for Checking Tuning [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
A simple way to check tuning with any app is to measure the frequency of any note, and then without changing the display, play the note an octave below. So let's say you're looking at C5 at 520 Hz. Don't touch the app, but play C4. If the piano's in tune, you should see a partial from C4 show up also right at 520 Hz (and also from C3 and maybe more, depending on your piano).

Also, to debug a damper problem like your F#, you can use the "chord of nature" to quickly find suspects (I just posted this; must have been in another thread). To find all the notes who have partials in common with your problem note, go down a fifth, and play a minor chord. So B minor would be the chord for your F#, and sure enough, the problem was with a B.

Keep investigating! You'll learn a lot. Record the pitch of your longest plain wire (uncovered) string. It will probably change the quickest due to humidity changes.

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

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