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#2006943 - 12/31/12 09:16 AM Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive?
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10347
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Over the past month, I have had many videos that I made of my son's playing struck down by claims of ownership by various musical rights societies. In the past, I would file a dispute and the claim would be released automatically. This is what many of you have said as well.

No more, it seems. The issue drags on for months. Heck, as some of you may recall, I got Norman Lebrecht involved to smack EMI on the wrist earlier in December. But there are tons of these groups involved, and if the slightest bit of content "matches," then you are slapped with a violation, and the burden is on you to overcome the inertia of these groups.

My son is actually beginning to earn some money with monetization, otherwise I would just give YouTube the proverbial finger. And now virtually every money maker is under assault. It's enough to make one ... see conspiracies! For classical amateurs, posting this way on YouTube is a real pain in the tuchus (that's a technical term).

A Beethoven sonata movement (Op. 10 no. 1) is now smacked down because the first 13 seconds "match." Say what? It's a chord and an arpeggio.

Are others experiencing this kind of sustained assault?
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https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2006958 - 12/31/12 09:53 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
Loc: Iowa City, IA
It's important to note that this is actually a service that YouTube provides to rights holders. Here's Google's page describing how it works:

http://www.youtube.com/t/contentid
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#2006961 - 12/31/12 10:00 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10347
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Oh, I'm quite aware of that "service." But on the classical side of things I suspect the "false positive" rate ... misidentifying someone's legitimate content (like my son's) as Daniel Barenboim, or now as Stewart Goodyear, is really high. And on the other side, the YouTube user is not afforded much in the way of due process. We face potentially months of emails and googling to try to find people inside of firms in order to prove to them that we did not steal their precious Samson Francois recording of such-and-such. It's just not worth it. And I suspect that many people just give up.

BTW, I had just sent a letter to Stewart Goodyear. Perhaps he will deign to intervene.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2007001 - 12/31/12 10:57 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
Although not quite the same along the same line is this, Alicia keys being sued for copyright infringement, apparently for a line in her song that is the title line of
Eddie Holman's "Hey there lonely girl"

it be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts (no pun)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J91ti_MpdHA

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#2007008 - 12/31/12 11:18 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4740
Loc: USA
Why is the world so damned uptight...

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#2007010 - 12/31/12 11:20 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Gerard12 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 757
Loc: South Carolina
I had a conversation with a couple of lawyer friends in NYC about these type of issues over Xmas. (At the risk of stating the obvious or repeating what's been said in various threads:) They say that the whole digital rights field is still very new, and that recording companies are still trying to figure out how to make (and/or increase) royalty money from YouTube and various streaming services.

They will pay money for software to do their policing work because it's relatively cheap. As far as hiring additional staff to work with amateur content users/creators goes on these type of issues? It won't happen for a while.

Internet provider and content licensing fees are expected to rise at a quicker rate over the next five years than previous (I remember hearing something to this effect about 7 years ago, and I don't know if they have risen accordingly)....and alledgedly, so will the profits and means for dealing with these issues....um, so they say.....

I don't blame you for being livid; reading your previous threads about this made my blood boil a little bit.

(On the other side of the fence, while the eyes of the east coast were on hurricane Sandy, I, along with other members of a jazz band that I work with, spent 8 hours with our eyes glued to computer screens; as we sent out ceast and desist letters to over 140 websites that were either selling, streaming, or offering free downloads of illegally uploaded copies of one of our independently released CDs).


Edited by Gerard12 (12/31/12 11:35 AM)
_________________________
Piano performance and instruction (former college music professor).

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#2007603 - 01/01/13 06:11 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 935
Loc: Canada Alberta
If you think about it -

there was a time when:

1 music/record/CD stores,

2 video stores/rent/sell

3 book stores,

4 paper boys sold and delivered newspaers

5 tv

6 youtube

7 theatre



I enjoyed all of them, but...



I don't do business over the internet. It is not safe in my mind and I only do business with people whose eyes I can see.



I haven't heard of anyone who has gone to a movie theatre or even rented a movie in several years. They get

copies from friends who are pilots and bring them back to Canada.



A few years ago I loved youtube. It was so awesome for someone like me because I haven't had television

since I was 19 and left home and I am now in my mid 60s.

You tube said they were going to make it a very good money making business that would change the world. And they did. For the last several years it was changing daily and soon I couldn't find anything and as recently as today, 1 January 2013, when I tried to bring up youtube, it say load instead of search like it used to. When I enter any word in load, it immedately said I have to register. Well, I do not use facebook or google or youube where I have to register. The way I have got onto youtube it to do a search under google and type in, for example, "mozart funeral march youtube" and click on the option.

1 music/record/CD stores have closed.

2 video stores/rent/sell - have all closed
3 book stores - still exist but are pushing e-books. Almost all the secondhand books stores have closed or gone bankrupt as well stores selling new books.
4 paper boys sold and delivered newspapers. I have seen any paperboys. I see poor people you are paid a dollar an hour or something to hand out free news flyers to commuters
5 tv - most everyone that I know no longer has cable or watches tv. They watch highlights of sport on youtube so they say
6 youtube - so youtube is sort of gone as of today.
7 theatre - most of the theatres have closed including muli-plex threatres.

The only thing I can spend money on is music books because they still exit.

They used to have stripper bars where women danced to the music and men watched the show and drank. Men and women used to go to bars to watch hockey and drink and eat. Not so anymore. No wonder people an afford to buy condos for a half a million dollars because other than food and fuel to keep warm not much as we know it - still exists.

Let the record indicate that I am not complaining. I think life is awesome, but also let the record indicate that no one is complaining about anything either. Men women and children clutch their ipods, cell phone and at all times have ear buds in their ears.


Edited by Michael_99 (01/01/13 06:15 PM)

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#2007606 - 01/01/13 06:18 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Michael_99]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I don't do business over the internet. It is not safe in my mind and I only do business with people whose eyes I can see.

Bernie Madoff comes to mind. wink
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AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#2007717 - 01/01/13 10:58 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Dave Horne]
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 935
Loc: Canada Alberta
Your point is well taken, but anyone looking to make an investment and thinks the deal is too good to pass up, it probably is! The other context is that if ones has to litigate, it not clear where web sites are located or under what laws and countries relate to the business transaction.
Lastly, I support local retailers, when I can, because they employ laocal people and pay taxes at city, provincal and federal level. My commnets are politely spoken.

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#2007860 - 01/02/13 09:00 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
suniil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 149
Loc: London
I had this issue with my daughter's channel, but last few videos appears to be okay without any dispute including Chopin Etude Op 10. No.12
_________________________
http://google.com/+gayatrinair | Chandelier

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#2008386 - 01/03/13 07:23 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7753
I bet that a really good lawyer could find a lawsuit in this, one that would put a stop to the practice of penalizing YouTube uploaders for copyright violations they have not committed.

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#2008388 - 01/03/13 07:30 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
jdw Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 937
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
You might be interested in Lawrence Lessig's book Free Culture, about the stranglehold of copyright. I notice on Wikipedia that there's a movement based on the book.
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

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#2008392 - 01/03/13 07:38 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4740
Loc: USA
The fact that this even happens is just idiotic beyond belief.

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#2008444 - 01/03/13 09:42 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
DonaldLee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 143
I get this a lot. I upload my youtube videos privately (where an individual can only see it if I send them the link) so my professor can check up on my progress during holidays and such, and with each video I've had a copyright dispute with some random company. Each time it happens I just say: "This is me playing, and this work is public domain", and the dispute is released within a week.
_________________________
Currently working on:
Brahms Op. 118
Mozart Sonata K. 576
Bach Prelude and Fugue in b-flat minor (WTC Book I)
Balikerev Islamey



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#2008445 - 01/03/13 09:46 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
DonaldLee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 143
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
No more, it seems. The issue drags on for months.

That's utterly ridiculous. I feel like it'll stop with 4-5 years once they realize how much money they're losing by going after classical musicians. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an option one day that says something to the effect of: is this a performance of a public domain work? check for yes.
_________________________
Currently working on:
Brahms Op. 118
Mozart Sonata K. 576
Bach Prelude and Fugue in b-flat minor (WTC Book I)
Balikerev Islamey



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#2008456 - 01/03/13 10:09 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10347
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Donald,

The problem is not that the music is in the "public domain," which it obviously is. The problem is that various rights societies claim that the actual playing is owned by one of their artists. They are claiming, essentially, that I have dubbed in Daniel Barenboim over my son's hands. I cannot prove that this is not true. All I can say to them, and to YouTube's usually moronic responders, is that one minute spent actually listening to the recording would convince anyone who knows music that a teen in his music room is not Stewart Goodyear or Samson Francois.

I do file the usual YouTube dispute, but they are not going away. Instead, these firms often reiterate their claim. This leads YouTube to threaten me with unspecified legal penalties if I file a second dispute.

I did this last month and got Norman Lebrecht to help me embarrass EMI for disputing my claim. Ultimately, I found a lawyer within EMI who "fixed" the problem for me. But now I still cannot monetize that video because YouTube simply won't let me. They are asking me to demonstrate that the content is truly mine. I cannot do that. No one can. I can only promise that it is.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2008513 - 01/03/13 12:30 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
DonaldLee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 143
For them to be that aggressive is terrible. I'm glad you got that video at least partially settled.
_________________________
Currently working on:
Brahms Op. 118
Mozart Sonata K. 576
Bach Prelude and Fugue in b-flat minor (WTC Book I)
Balikerev Islamey



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#2008521 - 01/03/13 01:06 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 852
Loc: UK, Brighton
They're more aggressive than a bag of badgers in a cement mixer...but so the world goes; for every battle won two are lost...or something laugh Perhaps I'm a tad pessimistic about the state of the world, but, um, I'm not all that old and even *I've* noticed a decline in just about every area of life that matters; be it liberties or linguistics, values or value. Not that such should stop you feeling as well and happy as you can, of course laugh It just...makes it harder to do so... smirk
Xxx
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

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#2008532 - 01/03/13 01:20 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
suniil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 149
Loc: London
Are you sure? Because I had a video (Liebesträume No.3) which always had Lang Lang tagged in as Artist. Submitted the claim and got released in 1 months time. Rest of the videos were released within hours after submitting the claim.

The channel is partnered with youtube and able to monetize and facilities like extra top banner etc.

http://www.youtube.com/gayatrinairmusic

Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
But now I still cannot monetize that video because YouTube simply won't let me. They are asking me to demonstrate that the content is truly mine. I cannot do that. No one can. I can only promise that it is.
_________________________
http://google.com/+gayatrinair | Chandelier

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#2008592 - 01/03/13 02:53 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Kreisler]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3446
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
It's important to note that this is actually a service that YouTube provides to rights holders. Here's Google's page describing how it works:

http://www.youtube.com/t/contentid


That seems a big reason to step away from the youtube "service" to something better?
_________________________

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#2008620 - 01/03/13 03:57 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: wouter79]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
Loc: Iowa City, IA
For me, it means not using YouTube as a radio station. I don't use Spotify, either. I want artists getting my money, and that means purchasing CDs or tracks online through CD Baby, Amazon, or the iTunes store.

The way it's set up, record companies get tiny amounts of money for each play on Spotify or YouTube. Their incentive, then, is to go for quantity. The more hits they get, the more money they get, and that means flagging as many videos as possible, erring on the side of too many. The deal that Spotify and YouTube has with companies is company-friendly (not artist-friendly.)

Artists, especially those who self-publish, get far more money from actual album and track purchases.

Originally Posted By: wouter79
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
It's important to note that this is actually a service that YouTube provides to rights holders. Here's Google's page describing how it works:

http://www.youtube.com/t/contentid


That seems a big reason to step away from the youtube "service" to something better?
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#2008656 - 01/03/13 05:29 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21246
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Donald,

The problem is not that the music is in the "public domain," which it obviously is. The problem is that various rights societies claim that the actual playing is owned by one of their artists. They are claiming, essentially, that I have dubbed in Daniel Barenboim over my son's hands. I cannot prove that this is not true.


I suspect that it would be very easy to prove that it is not dubbed from a particular recording. Simply superimpose the two recordings. There are bound to be audible discrepancies, or visual ones using the proper software.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2008696 - 01/03/13 07:43 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10347
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Yes, of course. But if any reasonable human being spent 20 seconds looking at my videos, there would be no need for such a "proof." Supposing I did go through all the expense and time of producing such a wave form analysis, the likely response I would receive is an email pointing me to a FAQ section of their website. My "proof" would probably not even stand as real proof for them. After all, someone in their legal department would have to evaluate my evidence to assure the content holder that the supposed proof wasn't fraudulent. For me, it would actually be simpler to hire a lawyer, as wr suggests. More expensive, I'm sure, but much more likely to get a human to respond.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2008732 - 01/03/13 08:48 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
kevinocarro Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 7
Although not quite the same along the same line is this, Alicia keys being sued for copyright infringement, apparently for a line in her song that is the title line of
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#2025240 - 02/01/13 11:23 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
aleexx Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/01/13
Posts: 5
copyright violations is not good.Copyright infringement IS very vital to avoid any illegal matters.
_________________________
intellectual property law firms

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#2025467 - 02/01/13 05:17 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 546
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Over the past month, I have had many videos that I made of my son's playing struck down by claims of ownership by various musical rights societies.


It's the PROs making these claims, or the record labels?
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2025761 - 02/02/13 07:55 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: DanS]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7753
Originally Posted By: DanS
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Over the past month, I have had many videos that I made of my son's playing struck down by claims of ownership by various musical rights societies.


It's the PROs making these claims, or the record labels?


Neither. It is robotics that do it. It is just some inane and poorly-designed bit of software.

What a lovely century it is going to be...

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#2025808 - 02/02/13 09:57 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: wr]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 546
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see how making a false claim of copyright over someone else's material is legal. Also, to me it seems like harassment...making a false claim to get rid of the competition.
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2025817 - 02/02/13 10:22 AM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: Piano*Dad]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: uk south
Everyone who uploads to youtube agrees to abide by the terms and conditions which say that they (youtube) can delete what they like at any time and without reason. If you don't like that then can also just terminate your account. It may not be fair but those are the terms that have been signed up to.

How it works in practice is that youtube is very keen to keep the majors (record companies) on board and in order to do so they hand over responsibility of finding 'potential' copyright infringement to them. Once found youtube probably just delete them because that is the easiest and cheapest thing to do. it would be an insanely expensive job to really police properly the videos on youtube - over 120 million of them, increasing at 200,00 a day, or 72 hrs of video each minute!


Edited by beeboss (02/02/13 10:23 AM)
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#2026012 - 02/02/13 07:09 PM Re: Are the "musical rights societies" getting more aggressive? [Re: DanS]
Marco M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 451
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: DanS
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see how making a false claim of copyright over someone else's material is legal. Also, to me it seems like harassment...making a false claim to get rid of the competition.


Yes, this is what I would like to get answered as well.

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