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#2004106 - 12/24/12 08:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
I was hoping to be able to post my own version of this for Christmas but the eight measures of arpeggios near the end have thwarted my attempts to get it done in time.

In the meantime I guess you'll have to "settle" for a professional recording!

This thread has made my year extra special. Thank you to everyone who made it what it is and I wish a Merry Christmas to you all.

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#2004111 - 12/24/12 08:47 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1227
Loc: Toronto
Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1

M19
Beat 1 - Em/B
Beat 2 - same
Beat 3 - Esus4/B
Beat 4 - same

M20
Beat 1 - F#7(add 11 grin )/B
Beat 2 - same
Beat 3 - B7sus4
Beat 4 - B7

M21
Beat 1 - Em
Beat 2 - ditto
Beat 3 - Am
Beat 4 - same

M22
Beat 1 - B
Beat 2 - B7
Beat 3 - Am7/C
Beat 4 - same

M23
Beat 1 - B7
Beat 2 - same
Beat 3 - Am7/C
Beat 4 - same

M24
Beat 1 - B7
Beat 2 - same
Beat 3 - Em
Beat 4 - Em

Then we begin theme 2 again. Starts out at least exactly as M12, but a third higher. Not sure, if different key, but will find out when we get there. I won't be venturing in to this for awhile though. Next chords will be filling in the blank (M6 - M11.)
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#2004157 - 12/24/12 11:39 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine


I had the wrong settings on my video. You should be able to see it now.
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#2004865 - 12/27/12 09:50 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1

Originally Posted By: Greener
M19
Beat 3 - Esus4/B

The G has changed to A but one B has changed to C. This is not a straightforward sus 4 chord.

A C E B = 1, b3, 5, 9 = Am add 9 - the best fit for the notes.

B C E A = 1, b2, 4, b7 = 1 b7 b9 11 = B11b9? The eleventh is rarely heard without some notes being dropped because of the dissonance between notes. The worst offender, the third, is most often dropped but also the ninth (that is included here, flattened). The fifth is also dropped here - in normal four part harmony the 11th is 1 5 b7 11. This is a 7b9 chord with the 11th added.

Neither C E A B (a very sparse C major 13? ) nor E A B C (E sus4 b6?) offer better alternatives. This is a difficult naming problem but if we look at the next measure...

Originally Posted By: Greener
M20
Beat 1 - F#7(add 11 )/B

The chords are easier to name...
F# A# E B = 1, 3, b7, 11 = F# 11 (with or without the melody note, C#). Remember that in four part harmony the third is more likely to be dropped, again because of the dissonance (A# to B) yet here again we have the third but no fifth.

Quote:
Sidebar: When the flat 7 is present, signifying the dominant chord, 2, 4 and 6 go in the next octave as extensions 9, 11 and 13. If the flat 7 is missing then they are 'added' when they're numbered in the next octave and may or may not be on the dominant.

1 2 5 = sus 2 = sus 4 of dominant (C-D-G = C sus2 or G sus4) - both pull gently to G; listen to Cat Stevens - Can't Keep It In or The Who - Pinball Wizard;
1 2 3 5 = 1 3 5 9 = add 9 - another gentle pull to tonic; listen to The Beatles - A Hard Days Night or The Who - Behind Behind Eyes;
1 3 5 b7 9 = dominant ninth - a stronger pull to tonic than the dom. 7th.

1 4 5 = sus 4;
1 3 4 5 = 1 3 5 11 = add 11 (I've never met one before - can you hear why?);
1 (3) 5 b7 (9) 11 = 11 (9 is optional because it doesn't change the characteristic sound of a dominant 11th)

1 3 5 6 = 6th = relative minor 7th (C E G A = C6 or Am7)
1 3 5 6 b7 = 1 3 5 b7 13 = 13 (9 and 11 are optional)


...and B7 sus 4...

These chords, or more precisely, their names, present me with a bit of difficulty but if we look at their position and their function there's another explanation that I prefer. These are building up to a climax in M21 by way of chromatic increase on a dominant pedal, B.

For my own analysis these chords would go unnamed. Their names wouldn't help me as much to learn this piece as would understanding their function.

There's a climax at M18.1 and M30.1 but this second climax, M21.1 is replaced in the repeat by the beginning of the coda and in my interpretation is the greater climax, all the more so for only occurring once.

Originally Posted By: Greener
M22
Beat 3 - Am7/C

I see separate chords on each beat; beat 3: C E G = C major; beat 4: C E A = A minor. The melody G can be taken as a 7th. M23 is similar.

Note that M12 is in the dominant and M25 is in tonic - a fourth higher not a third.
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#2004910 - 12/27/12 11:46 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1227
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Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Originally Posted By: Greener
M19
Beat 3 - Esus4/B

The G has changed to A but one B has changed to C. This is not a straightforward sus 4 chord.

A C E B = 1, b3, 5, 9 = Am add 9 - the best fit for the notes.

This is a 7b9 chord with the 11th added.


Yes, I see why this is not a straightforward sus4. I also now see the other choices. I don't think I ever would have picked the b7-9add11, but fits for me now.

This is all taking a bit of digesting, and still hasn't quite settled yet.

I also took a crack at M6-M11 and posting here now. So hope you like them smile . This has a similar build as we had starting at m22. I took a look at again but still like the g major:

M6
Beat 1 - E7
Beat 2 - same
Beat 3 - Am
Beat 4 - same

M7
Beat 1 - C#dim
Beat 2 - same
Beat 3 - D7/F#
Beat 4 - same

M8
Beat 1 - G
Beat 2 - same
Beat 3 - C
Beat 4 - same

M9
Beat 1 - D/F#
Beat 2 - D7
Beat 3 - G
Beat 4 - same

M10
Beat 1 - F#7
Beat 2 - same
Beat 3 - G
Beat 4 - same

M11
Beat 1 - F#7
Beat 2 - same
Beat 3 - Bm
Beat 4 - same

Based on this (assuming some of it is correct) I would say we have just passed through the key of G major (relative major of E minor)

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#2005087 - 12/27/12 05:47 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1

Originally Posted By: Greener
Based on this (assuming some of it is correct) I would say we have just passed through the key of G major (relative major of E minor)
Those chords look fine, Jeff. Our visit to G was very brief, at the climax in M8, and before the phrase ends we're clearly heading for B minor.
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#2005139 - 12/27/12 07:39 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1227
Loc: Toronto
Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1

Just an observation about Mendelssohn and this look at chords to date: A theme I see (we saw it in the coda of 102 No 6, as well) is, this feller is keen on building suspense and prolonging closure.

Here in M10 the F#7 does not resolve straight away, rather he goes to G, then goes to F#7 again and then resolves. In M22-M24 he draws it out even more. Same idea (different chords.) Twice he goes to B7 without resolving and finally the third time resolves to Em.

I'd hazard to guess that this is part of his signature and that we would see this pattern recurring in his other works.
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#2005417 - 12/28/12 10:28 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1

Originally Posted By: Greener
Just an observation about Mendelssohn and this look at chords to date...
Looking beyond the chords! How much of this would you have found without analysis? How much easier will it now be to prolong those resolutions with gentle ritardandos in your playing or just add a moments pause before savouring the resolving chords?

This is genuine progress and just one of the practical benefits of analysis.
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#2005438 - 12/28/12 10:49 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1227
Loc: Toronto
Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major

Hob Nobbin' with Haydn again smile .

Looking at the recapitulation vs. the exposition and my head is already starting to spin.

This is what it is looking like so far. I'm having a challenge accounting for all the content from exposition.

Everything starts off fine. That is similar.

M102-103 = M1-M2
M103-M107 = M3-M6 (quasi - some colour variation but clearly the same melody and harmony)
M108=M7
M109=M8 quasi
M110-M114=M9-M13
M115=M14 (A and E are flat vs M14)

M116-M119 This is where I was expecting the transition theme from M15-M19, but this is really quite different.

Then this next section M120-129 I can't even really account for. Will take some more careful examination. In listening though, it all sounds new to me.

When we get to M130 though, this is clearly from M34.

M130-142=M34-46 (142 has a different ending )

Then I expect all the rest is from Coda, but not an exact match by any stretch.

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#2005498 - 12/28/12 12:05 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major

Originally Posted By: Greener
...M116-M119 This is where I was expecting the transition theme from M15-M19, but this is really quite different.

Then this next section M120-129 I can't even really account for. Will take some more careful examination. In listening though, it all sounds new to me.

When we get to M130 though, this is clearly from M34.

M130-142=M34-46 (142 has a different ending )

Then I expect all the rest is from Coda, but not an exact match by any stretch.

M102-115=M1-114 Theme 1 etc.

M116-119=Another transition theme (for another theme perhaps?), a chromatic descent to G for...

M120-129=O how my heart leaps! Theme 1 in the style of theme 2 and leading up to a delightful double trill where we...

M130-137=M34-41 Transition to and recap Theme 2

M138-150=M42-53 Coda - modified - and lower in pitch so he hasn't just tried working around the limitations of the keyboard.

Haydn has not rested on his laurels but continued with his creativity through to the end.
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#2005585 - 12/28/12 01:54 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1227
Loc: Toronto
Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

M116-119=Another transition theme (for another theme perhaps?), a chromatic descent to G for...


OK, I am happy with this explanation.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

M120-129=O how my heart leaps! Theme 1 in the style of theme 2 and leading up to a delightful double trill where we...


Yes, after careful examination I was just about to say the same thing, but you beat me to it again frown . Actually, I hadn't picked up on this, but yes indeed, I can hear theme 1 coming through in this more melodic treatment of it.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

M130-137=M34-41 Transition to and recap Theme 2


I definitely got the theme 2 happening here but had bunched it within the group of measures from m130-142. Suppose I should not have done though, as it should be a distinct mention and Coda starts immediately following at m138.
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#2005926 - 12/29/12 08:43 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Schubert Op. 94 No. 6

One more little question on this piece. I've decided to make this my next recital piece. It is becoming special to me now, and has/is more work then I had anticipated in playing it cleanly throughout with polished expression and tempo. So, with this in mind I want to make sure I fully understand how it should be presented.

In the posted performance, Mr. Brendel takes the first repeat in the Allegretto. He does not take the second repeat.

If he were playing by the score he should have taken this repeat, correct?

Then he takes the repeat in the second part of the Trio.

Lastly, "Allegretto D.C." is then marked at the end of the Trio. This means play the Allegretto again as da cota. Is this correct? This time, without any repeats. Not sure how we are supposed to know all of this crazy .

Or, did Alfred play it correctly and I am not interpreting the score correctly.

One more lastly ... this is going to be tough (at least the way Alfred is playing this) to line up to a metronome. Is it intended to allow for Rubato (I hope so.) If so, it is not marked as such.
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#2005965 - 12/29/12 10:33 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
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Loc: Maine
D.C. stands for "da capo" which means "from the beginning" (literally, "from the head", or colloquially "from the top"). Yes, in this case it means play the Allegretto again. Usually you will find "Fine" (meaning "End", pronounced "fee-nay") marked somewhere in the score and this is where you stop playing after the Da Capo. (I don't have this score in front of me to check.)
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#2005967 - 12/29/12 10:38 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Oh, on repeats: I have noticed performers taking liberties with the repeats of the development/recapitulation sections of sonata-form movements. In the Haydn, Hamelin omits this marked repeat while Brendel takes it. There's a recording on YouTube of the Beethoven Sonatina in F, which in my edition does not have a repeat, but the performer does repeat that section.

Independently: when taking Da Capo sections, the convention is not to play the repeats when taking the Da Capo.
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#2005987 - 12/29/12 11:34 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Schubert Op. 94 No. 6
Originally Posted By: Greener
In the posted performance, Mr. Brendel...should have taken this repeat, correct?
Correct.

The first repeat in the Allegretto is advised but is not mandatory.

The second repeat is a good deal longer and is optional.

The Trio sections are short; repeat both or neither.

The da Capo is usually done without repeats.

Repeats have a specific purpose. They make sure the piece is balanced in musical proportion and that the audience has grasped the material that's going to help understanding the rest of the piece.

This is not a sonata where the themes are going to undergo great translation so proportion is key and discretion is the order of the day.

Some pieces are specifically marked 'da capo al fine senza repetizione' (from the top to the end without repeats) others may just take it as read. Take all the repeats the first time through and ignore them from the d.C. and no-one can fault you though they may still criticise your labourious pedantry.

Originally Posted By: Greener
One more lastly ... this is going to be tough...to line up to a metronome. Is it intended to allow for Rubato (I hope so.) If so, it is not marked as such.
When a piece is tough to line up to a metronome I recommend more practice with a metronome!

If you find the metronome stultifying turn it off when you CAN play with it.

Without good timekeeping music can lose its most important attribute. If it's the performer's intention to deliberately interfere with the listener's rhythm to bring out an emotional effect, for example, if the music is written well enough that such an effect is unnecessary then the performer comes across as affected, histrionic or unkempt. If the performer keeps strict time no-one can fault that aspect of the performance.

Precious few can play as strictly as a metronome and those that can probably wouldn't. There may be folk whose timekeeping is the equivalent of perfect pitch but I doubt it. I know of a conductor who was half a minute over length in a time critical recording who, when told, immediately repeated the performance half a minute quicker.

Slowing down or speeding up at cadences and climaxes is one thing but distorting the rhythm is something else. Practise with a metronome should cure the worst excesses. I find forceful foot tapping helps keep me on a steady rhythm and the restraint when I want to speed up can actually increase the intensity.

But even when playing with a metronome my fingers are unable to keep fine control. In many rock songs drummers play against a click track but the finished result is not as metronomic as using a drum machine.

As an experiment, record a piece of music that you can play well (but don't use a metronome for) with and without metronome (assuming you have one you can use with it being heard in the recording) and compare the results. I think you'll find rubato (robbed time) often robs quality.

You might find that a well chosen and finely tuned (and practised) tempo is actually better than a range of tempi throughout a piece despite initial doubts.
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#2006022 - 12/29/12 12:37 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Schubert Op. 94 No. 6

Thanks, everyone. I've learned a lot with these query responses.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

When a piece is tough to line up to a metronome I recommend more practice with a metronome!

laugh
Yes, I had a feeling this might be in order. Particularly with this piece. The 3/4 time is definitely tricky for me to count. It certainly is not a dancing waltz.

I think I get the message/concept though ... get the timing solid and timing embellishments (if any) only if/when the timing is solid.

Yes, will try out the metronome on an old shoe Bossa Nova and see how this pans out. Perhaps I'll post this one in the January Bar instead ...
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#2006391 - 12/30/12 06:56 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Schubert Op. 94 No. 6

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Originally Posted By: Greener
this is going to be tough...to line up to a metronome. Is it intended to allow for Rubato (I hope so.) If so, it is not marked as such.
When a piece is tough to line up to a metronome I recommend more practice with a metronome!
...
Without good timekeeping music can lose its most important attribute. If it's the performer's intention to deliberately interfere with the listener's rhythm to bring out an emotional effect, for example, if the music is written well enough that such an effect is unnecessary then the performer comes across as affected, histrionic or unkempt. If the performer keeps strict time no-one can fault that aspect of the performance.


This was absolutely the right advice. And, I was absolutely wrong about lining this up with a metronome.

It was not difficult to line up at all. The trouble (or the trouble I had anticipated, incorrectly) was not with the tempo at all. Rather, I was applying the wrong measure/beat values throughout the Allegretto. I thought Brendel was speeding up and slowing down. But, he is only playing it as written and I was not.

As my reading is weak, I spend a lot of time learning the notes. Then when that task is well at hand I've worked on going back and trying to shape the piece. In this case I relied heavily on how I remember it sounding, instead of counting out the beats (counting is also huge weakness apparently.) One practice session with the Metronome and everything is back on track.

I will never question the value of this again. It was vital for me with this piece and I was otherwise headed for disaster.

I won't be on the thread today ... off to London for one more (last) Christmas of 2012.
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#2007841 - 01/02/13 08:13 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major

The following quote is from much earlier work on this thread when were looking at the Clementi Sonatinas. I'm re-posting here as a refresher of things to consider as we move along with the "Adadio" (slow passage) movement.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

What to expect?

Typically only the first movement will be in sonata form. Certainly with these sonatinas that's the case.

The final movement is likely to be fast but not as intellectually engaging as a sonata form movement. The middle movement should present a gentler contrast usually with a change of key but don't expect much modulation.

Typically, and in a very general sense, the first movement will present you with technical fingerwork (scale, arpeggio and broken chord work) and architectural passages, pointing out themes and so on. The middle movement will offer an opportunity to develop your cantabile and the final movement to test your velocity and articulation.

There shouldn't be any exposition, development and recapitulation in the sense of a sonata form movement but you are likely to see a simple ABA form where the middle will be a contrast to the beginning and end. In Haydn's sonata the double bar in the menuet signalled a binary form movement rather than sonata form.

For the sonatina to have unity there should be an overlap of material but it's more likely in the outer movements. The middle movement will offer more contrast and may not be recognisably from the same sonatina. Of course, you are free to find something you can latch on to. It may be a very simple thing like one of the four-note figures. If I were writing a middle movement I would look at the jump from B to G in M1 or the two G's after the B, or even all three notes together as food for thought or inspiration.

But I'm not Clementi. smile

There may be nothing more than that he felt the movements went well together or that he composed them on the same day or after listening to the same jingle on his local radio station. smile
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#2008668 - 01/03/13 06:10 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major

Adagio


To start off I am trying to identify the sections, but having some difficulty.

M1 - M7 (half of M8)
This is clearly a theme, but I am reluctant to call it A.

M8 - M24
If I were to call the previous theme A, I would call this one B. But ...

Wait ... changed my mind

M1 - M17 A (miscount in the score (M18 sb M17) ... oops)
M18 - M24 I'm calling this a bridge passage, but perhaps could be lumped in with B.
M25 - M34 B
M35 - M53 A

M54 - M59 coda

So A,B,A

The trouble is the A's are not the same # of measures, but much of the content can be identified as parallel in the A's. Clearly, not all of it. I have 2 measures more in the second A.

This is my best attempt at labeling this so far.


Edited by Greener (01/03/13 06:16 PM)
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#2008699 - 01/03/13 07:49 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major, Adagio

Originally Posted By: Greener
To start off I am trying to identify the sections, but having some difficulty.
...
M1 - M17 A (miscount in the score (M18 sb M17) ... oops)
M18 - M24 I'm calling this a bridge passage, but perhaps could be lumped in with B.
M25 - M34 B
M35 - M53 A

M54 - M59 coda
...
This is my best attempt at labeling this so far.


It's marked Adagio so it has a slow pulse.

It's in F major, the subdominant of the key of the opening and closing movements. It's four pages, about six minutes, which is quite long for Haydn, so there's likely to be a good bit going on here to maintain our interest for that long.

It's in 3/4 time - but you won't need your dancing shoes, Jeff! smile

Check your measure numbers. I have 63 measures.

Section A has four lines, M1-4, M5-8, M9-12 (nice contrast), M13-17 (compare M1-2 with M13-14 and, get this, M15 beat 2! - M16).

B opens in the dominant C major at M18 and clearly finishes with the double rest in M23.

M24 starts in C minor. Is this section C?

Note the fall from A to G in M25 (and the move to Gminor). Compare it to M10-M11. Note the fall from E to D in M25-26 (and the move to D minor), from C to B in M28 and the move to B minor. Note that gorgeous climb to the dominant seventh, C7, in M33 for the return of A.

After a reprise of B in the tonic at M53 the coda draws out M23 over four measures before the final notes.
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#2009375 - 01/05/13 10:14 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:50 in C major, Adagio
Originally Posted By: zrtf90


Originally Posted By: Greener
...
M1 - M17 A (miscount in the score (M18 sb M17) ... oops)
M18 - M24 B
M25 - M34 C
M34 - M52 A
M53 - M58 B reprise
M59 - M63 coda


Check your measure numbers. I have 63 measures.


Yes, 63. I renumbered everything from 17 forward but had a typo in my previous post for the coda. I've relabeled everything in my sub-quote above.

I've gone through and verified everything you have mentioned here and it all makes sense to me now ... almost. I'm not clear on what I am looking for here ...

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Note the fall from A to G in M25 (and the move to Gminor).
...
Note the fall from E to D in M25-26 (and the move to D minor), from C to B in M28 and the move to B minor.


When I was looking at M25 for example, I get the Gminor, but not the A at all. Should I be looking at the chords here?

Congratulations BTW, Richard on the new keys. When I was feeling wealthier I had done a bit of research myself for digital. Kawai was what I was zoning in on, as they seemed (to me at least) to be head and shoulders above the rest. Good for you. I look forward to hearing you on the new machine in the upcoming recitals and monthly Bar.

Question: when you record on a digital, does this mean you can go straight from your digital (midi file) to your PC software, without the need for MICS (hanging from the chandeliers), wires, pre-amp etc.?
_________________________

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#2009379 - 01/05/13 10:31 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
I had looked at this movement and found where it "started over" at measure 35, and was able to match up the measures, and identify the transition measures which in the beginning move from F to C, but in the end stay at F to F. But I couldn't identify anything as an actual theme, and especially not an A and a B. It just all seems like tweedly deedly to me, a bit more elaborate the second time through.

Also in these ultra-slow movements I can never hear the meter. I tend to hear the 32nd notes as 16th notes as I mentally count it while listening, and can't hear a downbeat anywhere. It always makes me wonder what is the point of writing something at such a slow tempo marking, when you're just going to fill it up with fast notes anyway by using lots of 32nd notes.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2009410 - 01/05/13 11:39 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Greener
When I was looking at M25 for example, I get the Gminor, but not the A at all. Should I be looking at the chords here?

Yes, I re-read what I wrote and it's not clear. I'm looking just two notes each time and it's actually the the G to F# im M25 and D to C# that are more pertinent when I'm listening.

What I hear, and what I'm trying to convey is that Pappa Haydn has taken a four line song, in section A, where the third line is a little different from its brothers but it is this one that he's used as inspiration for the transition from B back to A. It is the two notes I pointed out that are most recognisable but I see the whole shape as coming from this third line heavily disguised in the minor chords and the suggestion of part playing not present in lines 1, 2 and 4.

_____________

Thanks for the congrats.

I was surprised how familiar the Steinway D felt when I first tried it as it's so long since I played an acoustic, let alone a grand. I used to play a Blüthner concert grand quite regularly and is the reason I moved from upright acoustics to a Clavinova. It just felt so much closer and gave me a wider dynamic palette and greater control than the uprights.

But I got on throughout the models and really the CA-95, with its extra volume and soundboard was much better than the lesser acoustics. With a different life, house and bank account I might have been tempted by a six foot Shigeru Kawai or Yamaha grand or even a Yamaha U3 but for my playing (and I'm no Pogorelich or Zimmerman) the CA-95 didn't even feel like a compromise. My Beethoven, Schubert and Liszt all felt and sounded as good on it as on the Bechstein or Steinway grands.

My old Clavinova is 30+30 watts and I can't hear any nuances in what I'm playing below full whack and some of the lesser digitals don't even have that. This new one has 45+45 and another 45w soundboard transducer.
__________________

Recording on my Clavinova is two 1/4" jacks from the line out onto a 1/8" stereo minijack into the PC and into Windows Sound Recorder or Audacity. I downloaded and tried a free MIDI recorder but the delay between what I played and what I heard suggested the signal bounces off the moon.

I have an old/ancient Fostex A8 8-track recorder and the foldback is audibly immediate.

I learnt a Scarlatti sonata once (when a drink had been spilled into my digital by a young visitor) without hearing it until after I'd memorised it and brought it up close to recital speed so I'm familiar with playing without hearing (handy practise for my old age) but digital MIDI recording is not for me.

The new Kawai records straight onto a flash drive in mp3 format. I play the piano in one room onto the stick, carefully carry the stick into the studio, being sure not to drop it, "stick" it into the PC, copy it onto the hard drive and voila! Robert's your mother's brother! Ready to send to Monica.
_________________________
Richard

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#2009411 - 01/05/13 11:49 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I had looked at this movement and found where it "started over" at measure 35, and was able to match up the measures, and identify the transition measures which in the beginning move from F to C, but in the end stay at F to F. But I couldn't identify anything as an actual theme, and especially not an A and a B. It just all seems like tweedly deedly to me, a bit more elaborate the second time through.

Phrase One, skipping the flourish:

Love,

It must be love

That makes my heart go boom

Tickety boom

<pause>

Te–boom.

laugh
_________________________
Richard

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#2011805 - 01/09/13 04:44 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1227
Loc: Toronto
Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1

Time to move along with more Mendelssohn chords.

Progress Report: No major problems to this point (up to M24) at 70% of desired tempo. Phrasing, expression, pedal etc. has not been much of the equation yet. Although some work has been done on this.

So, I'm anxious to move along and here are more chords up to M31 (where I started to get lost in frustration.)

Speaking of tempo though ... this is common time, correct? 4 beats to a bar. Well then, desired recital tempo for me, will be 50-55 beats per minute. This is crazy crazy slow for a metronome setting. And so, I need to double it up and count 8 clicks to a Bar. At least, that has been my strategy to date.

M25
Beat 1 - Am
Beat 2 - "
Beat 3 - Em
Beat 4 - "

M26
Beat 1 - Am
Beat 2 - "
Beat 3 - Em
Beat 4 - "

M27
Beat 1 - Am
Beat 2 - "
Beat 3 - Em
Beat 4 - "

M28
Beat 1 - F/A
Beat 2 - "
Beat 3 - Bm7-5
Beat 4 - "/A

M29
Beat 1 - E7/G#
Beat 2 - "
Beat 3 - A(add9)
Beat 4 - A9/G

M30
Beat 1 - F#7
Beat 2 - Fdim7 (lovely change here)
Beat 3 - G9
Beat 4 - Edim7, Em7

M31
Beat 1 - Edim7
Beat 2 - D#dim7
Beat 3 - Eadd(the 9 is the melody, so maybe just E here)
Beat 4 - C


Edited by Greener (01/10/13 03:26 PM)

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#2011839 - 01/09/13 06:04 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1

M25 is Am and Em, the same as M26 and M27 (it's twin, notewise).

The rest I agree with although I'd have used Bm7 rather Dm6.

I don't foresee a problem with the rest. Glad it's all going well.

Yes, this is common time, 4/4.

When you're trying to get the rhythm it's fine to to use one click per quaver (4/8) but once you have the rhythm revert to 4/4 so that the first beat takes the strong accent and the third the medium accent. Don't set yourself a target speed for the recital (do set yourself a target speed but not a deadline to achieve it).

Record at whatever tempo you're up to when the time comes. My score suggests 72 bpm but I've been working it up to 84 bpm at the climax.
___________________

Just as a heads up, Andy Platt has been given the green light for the Chopin Nocturne in E flat and I'm planning to record it, along with some other familiar pieces, as a celebration of my new DP, so whenever you're ready for that we're all up for it.
_________________________
Richard

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#2012101 - 01/10/13 06:53 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1227
Loc: Toronto
Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

M25 is Am and Em, the same as M26 and M27 (it's twin, notewise).

Ooops. Yes, of course. I'm not sure how I was getting anything else, but all fixed now.
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

The rest I agree with although I'd have used Bm7 rather Dm6.

I was thinking Bm, but F is natural here ...
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

When you're trying to get the rhythm it's fine to to use one click per quaver (4/8) but once you have the rhythm revert to 4/4 so that the first beat takes the strong accent and the third the medium accent. Don't set yourself a target speed for the recital (do set yourself a target speed but not a deadline to achieve it).

OK, good to know and glad I asked about. I'll be careful of this.
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Just as a heads up, Andy Platt has been given the green light for the Chopin Nocturne in E flat and I'm planning to record it, along with some other familiar pieces, as a celebration of my new DP, so whenever you're ready for that we're all up for it.

How cool is that. Are we going to be having sort of like a Soiree once you have all your pieces recorded?

I'm ready and I'd say lets get going then.

I put the Waltzes ahead of the Nocturne. OP 64, No2 is progressing slowly, albeit nicely. My priority currently resides with Schubert and Mendelssohn in preparation for the recitals.

Nonetheless, I do still have the Nocturne on my radar and will be in much better shape for learning it after we have analyzed it. So, I will just do my best to keep up, and good to go now.

I'll get the score posted today.

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#2012213 - 01/10/13 11:39 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1227
Loc: Toronto
Fryderyk Chopin - Nocturne in E Flat Major, Op.9 No.2

Score Download


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#2012283 - 01/10/13 02:07 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1227
Loc: Toronto
Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin - Biography excerpts

I was interested to understand his background better, so here is some briefing and full article is here

Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin, was born on 1 March 1810, according to the statements of the artist himself and his family, but according to his baptismal certificate, which was written several weeks after his birth, the date was 22 February.
...
Chopin's father, Mikolaj (Nicolas) Chopin, a Polonized Frenchman ... He had been born in 1771 in Marainville in the province of Lorraine in France, but already as a child he had established contacts with the Polish families of Count Michal Pac and the manager of his estate, Jan Adam Weydlich. At the age of 16, Mikolaj accompanied them to Poland where he settled down permanently. He never returned to France and did not retain contacts with his French family but brought up his children as Poles. They had four children: three daughters Ludwika, Izabela and Emilia, and a son Fryderyk, the second child. Several months after his birth, the whole family moved to Warsaw...

The musical talent of Fryderyk became apparent extremely early on, and it was compared with the childhood genius of Mozart...The prodigy was featured in the Warsaw newspapers, and "little Chopin" became the attraction and ornament of receptions given in the aristocratic salons of the capital.

The young composer listened to and noted down the texts of folk songs, took part in peasant weddings and harvest festivities, danced, and played a folk instrument resembling a double bass with the village musicians; all of which he described in his letters. Chopin became well acquainted with the folk music of the Polish plains in its authentic form, with its distinct tonality, richness of rhythms and dance vigour. When composing his first mazurkas in 1825, as well as the later ones, he resorted to this source of inspiration which he kept in mind until the very end of his life.

Chopin, endowed by nature with magnificent melodic invention, ease of free improvisation and an inclination towards brilliant effects and perfect harmony, gained in Elsner's school a solid grounding, discipline, and precision of construction, as well as an understanding of the meaning and logic of each note...Chopin ended his education at the High School in 1829, and after the third year of his studies Elsner wrote in a report: "Chopin, Fryderyk, third year student, amazing talent, musical genius".

After completing his studies, Chopin planned a longer stay abroad to become acquainted with the musical life of Europe and to win fame. Up to then, he had never left Poland...Upon his return to Warsaw, Chopin, already free from student duties, devoted himself to composition and wrote, among other pieces, two Concertos for piano and orchestra: in F minor and E minor...This was also the period of the first nocturne, etudes, waltzes, mazurkas, and songs to words by Stefan Witwicki. During the last months prior to his planned longer stay abroad, Chopin gave a number of public performances, mainly in the National Theatre in Warsaw where the première of both concertos took place... Chopin left for Austria, with the intention of going on to Italy.

Several days after their arrival in Vienna, the two friends learnt about the outbreak of the uprising in Warsaw, against the subservience of the Kingdom of Poland to Russia and the presence of the Russian Tsar on the Polish throne. This was the beginning of a months-long Russo-Polish war...In low spirits and anxious about the fate of his country and family, he ceased planning the further course of his career.

Having given up his plans for a journey to Italy, due to the hostilities there against Austria, Chopin resolved to go to Paris...In the autumn of 1831 Chopin arrived in Paris where he met many fellow countrymen...In Paris, his reputation as an artist grew rapidly. Letters of recommendation which the composer brought from Vienna allowed him immediately to join the local musical milieu, which welcomed him cordially. Chopin became the friend of Liszt, Mendelssohn, Ferdinand Hiller, Berlioz and Auguste Franchomme...The ensuing success was enormous, and he quickly became a famous musician, renowned throughout Paris.

The most important source of Chopin's income in Paris was, however, from giving lessons. He became a popular teacher among the Polish and French aristocracy and Parisian salons were his favourite place for performances. As a pianist, Chopin was ranked among the greatest artists of his epoch, such as Kalkbrenner, Liszt, Thalberg and Herz, but, in contrast to them, he disliked public performances and appeared rarely and rather unwillingly.

Having settled down in Paris, Chopin deliberately chose the status of an emigré. Despite the requests of his father, he did not obey the Tsarist regulations, issued in subjugated Poland, and never extended his passport in the Russian embassy. Consequently, being regarded as a political refugee, Chopin deprived himself of the possibility of legally revisiting his homeland. He longed to see his family and friends and, seeking refuge against loneliness...In July 1837, Chopin travelled to London in the company of Camille Pleyel in the hope of forgetting all unpleasant memories. Soon afterwards, he entered into a close liaison with the famous French writer George Sand. This author of daring novels, older by six years, and a divorcee with two children, offered the lonely artist what he missed most from the time when he left Warsaw: extraordinary tenderness, warmth and maternal care. The lovers spent the winter of 1838/1839 on the Spanish island of Majorca, living in a former monastery in Valdemosa. There, due to unfavourable weather conditions, Chopin became gravely ill and showed symptoms of tuberculosis.

On his return from Majorca in the spring of 1839, and following a convalescence in Marseilles, Chopin, still greatly weakened, moved to George Sand's manor house in Nohant, in central France. Here, he was to spend long vacations up to 1846, with the exception of 1840, returning to Paris only for the winters. This was the happiest, and the most productive, period in his life after he left his family home. The majority of his most outstanding and profound works were composed in Nohant.

Grievous personal experiences as well as the loss of Nohant, so important for the health and creativity of the composer, had a devastating effect on Chopin's mental and physical state. He almost completely gave up composition, and from then to the end of his life wrote only a few miniatures.In April 1848, persuaded by his Scottish pupil, Jane Stirling, Chopin left for England and Scotland. Together with her sister, Miss Stirling organised concerts and visits in various localities, including the castles of the Scottish aristocracy. This exceptionally hectic life style and excessive strain on his strength from constant travelling and numerous performances, together with a climate deleterious to his lungs, further damaged his health. On 16 November 1848, despite frailty and a fever, Chopin gave his last concert, playing for Polish emigrés in the Guildhall in London. A few days later, he returned to Paris.

On 17 October 1849, Chopin died of pulmonary tuberculosis in his Parisian flat in the Place Vendôme...He was buried in the Père-Lachaise cemetery in Paris. In accordance with his will, however, his heart, taken from his body after death, was brought by his sister to Warsaw where it was placed in an urn installed in a pillar of the Holy Cross church in Krakowskie Przedmiscie.
_________________________

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#2012305 - 01/10/13 03:10 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1

Originally Posted By: Greener
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
The rest I agree with although I'd have used Bm7 rather Dm6.

I was thinking Bm, but F is natural here ...

Forgive me, Bm7-5. My thinking is that I'm adding B, the dominant of E, for the change to E. I'm enjoying having you correct me! smile

If I thought of it as Dm6 I would probably hit D in the bass by mistake.
__________________________

The idea of the recordings is twofold.

Firstly, folks on RST have expressed an interest in seeing pictures - seems strange to me for a production musical instrument as opposed to a unique hand made one but there we are. I thought a recording was more appropriate for an instrument.

Secondly, I've been on the forum almost a year now with nothing more to show for it than one recital, and it was a disappointing effort at that, so I figured a few recordings of pieces that I was more familiar with would make me feel better and a new piano is as good an excuse as any.
___________________________

I see you've wasted no time with the Chopin! smile
_________________________
Richard

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