Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#2004205 - 12/25/12 05:08 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
I just realised this morning that I am leaving out an important piece of information from Virgil Smiths book, which explains the reason I have so monotonously been saying what I am saying.

"Tuning checks are essential for evaluating the accuracy of the tuning, both during the tuning and when it is completed. It is important to know that each note being tuned is correct, because of the other notes being tuned to it.

Much time can be wasted in retuning notes that were incorrectly tuned to notes not correctly tuned. An octave or interval may sound acceptable, but still not be in tune.
Playing an octave or chord is not a reliable tuning check; neither is playing a piece after the tuning is finished. A skilled tuner can eliminate that "out of tune" feeling (sound) and make the tuning sound acceptable in a few minutes, but the piano will not really be in tune.

Originally Posted By: rysowers
I have found that the perfect tuning continues to be elusive. As my skills have progressed, my ears just get pickier and pickier, so I am still not completely satisfied, and I doubt I ever will be.


Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Be careful of applying methods developed on larger, or better scaled instruments for general use. (for example, realize that by the time Virgil was writing his book, he had mostly limited his tuning to Steinway grands...)


Ryans and Rons statements are both correct but also need to be added to.

Though there are numerous reasons to take into account as to why one can or cannot achieve a top quality tuning on any given piano, the reality and necessity to strive for and put into place what Virgil Smith has said about tuning checks is of utmost importance if one would desire to arrive at a place in one’s own tuning career of being a professional piano tuner.


Edited by Mark Davis (12/25/12 05:10 AM)
Edit Reason: minor correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
(ad PTG 568) Win a Year Journal Subscription
PTG 57th Annual Convention - Atlanta
#2004209 - 12/25/12 05:30 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
Seasoned tuners have the tone in the ear, particularely for a given piano model, if a tuning have just slept a little, as it is commnon with temperature changes, be sure the tuner will not make a full tuning, taking the risk to lower stability.

So the "concert tuning" on pianos that are often tuned/checked twice a day, will sound similar from one day to the othere but rarely it will be exactly..

Of course checks are necessary, even if restricted to checking the ^progression of fast beating intervals, but on a well know model, an experimented tuner can use one simple test and obtain a good tuning, I have been seeing that often.

When tuning using conscientiously the resonance of the tuning, this give a sort of check, that does not imply comparing intervals.
I often if in doubt of the pitch in the 5th or 6th octave, simply test a 17Th or an octave more, as I know how fast may be that interval.

I am the first surprised to get a progressive speed of those intervals after tuning octaves, but it is at last in the mediums and treble.

As I said, if I where doing more concert work I'd feel more concerned and probably would try to have more checks, but as long as the tone is congruent, I see no reason the checks would indicate something different.

Of course it cannot be stated that checks are unnecessary, that kind of phrase is misleading (hence the added coments)

The thing is : Is an absolute progression of FBI the model for a perfect tuning, or can other parameters be used (as consonance for instance)

What seem to be necessary in an ET environnment is congruency, probably the brain is able to grasp on any mathemaical model and recognize it as some kind of justness (for instance similar beating on all 5ths and too short octaves can make a "just" sensation.)

If I am in a good mood, I feel that I am using the sympathetic resonance of the rest of the piano immediately after the attack, to ascertain the good positioning of a note.

This effect once one is used to perceive it, is clear enough to provide a "hot spot" (see "mindless octaves" concept)

Add a few confirmations (to test a FBI the necessary time is extremely fast, may be 1/4 to 1/2 second depending of the note) and you are done.

When I was using Verituner VT00 in concert environment, we had one of the most appreciated tuner that was able to make an even progression of 3ds, with the VT showing irregularities .

I could not understand the way he listened, at that times, but he mixed all the partials to obtain the speed of the 3ds, the ETD was definitively "out" of that logic.


Edited by Kamin (12/25/12 05:40 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2004254 - 12/25/12 10:09 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
There has been some suggestion in this thread that 4:2 octaves in the midrange are ideal. I want to reiterate without any reservation, and ask for those who agree to chime in, that 4:2 octaves in the midrange are unacceptable. They do not sound clean, they produce ringing at the 8:4 and higher, and they result in contracted 12ths and triple octaves. When producing a high quality, concert level tuning, the midrange octaves will always be between a 4:2 and a 6:3 upon analysis.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2004289 - 12/25/12 12:47 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
I recall Bill Bremmer speaking about tuning mindless octaves. I have learnt a lot from Bill, though I have had some disagreements with him, usually due to my own misunderstanding though. I began following his writings on this forum in 2006. So many thanks to Bill, and I hope he is well too.

With regard to tuning mindless octaves, I developed a slightly different technique to Bill, but it was due to his writings that I stumbled upon it.

I am quite comfortable to tune RBI's and check my SBI's or tune SBI's and check my RBI's when tuning.

For high treble and low bass, this is where it begins to become a bit tricky, but once again, checking and tuning in these areas with the 8ve, D8ve, minor 14th, minor 21st, 10th & 17th, one can make things acceptable. I also do use ghost tuning in the low bass single mono-chord bass strings on the better quality pianos.

Once again, every piano is different. I tune a wide variety of pianos, from old to new, spinet to Kawai 7ft grands.

I just pulled out an old article by Dan Levitan from 1996, and he says the following,

"Just as there is no one right way to set a pin, so too is there no one right procedure to follow in tuning a piano...

Most of us have acquired a wide repertoire of tests, too many to use practically at each tuning.

Decide in advance which tests you want your tuning to pass and stick with them. For example, you might decide that, in the treble, you're only going to check 4ths, 5ths, single octaves, and double octaves. You're asking for trouble if, after you're finished, you decide to listen to your progression of 10ths and 17ths as well."

Oh, please take note that he is also promoting checking ones tuning!







Edited by Mark Davis (12/25/12 02:24 PM)
Edit Reason: minor correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004295 - 12/25/12 01:03 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Kent Swafford wrote with regards to temperament tuning,

"During any refinement procedure the emphasis should be on checking the tuning of one note at a time. Change the tuning of an interval only when you know for sure which note of the interval is in error. If you find an interval that seems to be beating too fast or to slow, individually check the tuning of both notes that form the interval."

This refinement procedure can obviously be applied to the rest of the piano, but please do note it is a refinement procedure!
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004315 - 12/25/12 02:32 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis

I just pulled out an old article by Dan Levitan from 1996....

"Decide in advance which tests you want your tuning to pass and stick with them. For example, you might decide that, in the treble, you're only going to check 4ths, 5ths, single octaves, and double octaves. You're asking for trouble if, after you're finished, you decide to listen to your progression of 10ths and 17ths as well."




I have already promoted the following tests for the octave, tempered 12th, double and triple octave:

M3<M10<M17<M6 and
m6 below = M17

Fitting a M10 and a M17 into such a small window (M3<M6) means that if the lower M3 are all evenly increasing (or whatever they are doing) the upper M10s and M17s will match. This is a much more precise and consistent technique than using 4ths and 5ths, which Dan agrees since he admits one's M10s and M17s will not be evenly increasing.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2004321 - 12/25/12 03:05 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Mark, please re-read Dan's statement. I do not think Dan is saying what you are saying he is saying.

BTW, I do not know what Dan holds to today. As I said it is an old article.

Every piano is different and I tune accordingly. I do not hold fast to any particular sequence except checking my work as I progress and smoothing things out as I go, in order for the best possible tuning for that particular piano.

I do like as clean (consonant) a tuning as possible but will adjust if necessary.

I think that I am a whole lot more flexible when it comes to poor quality pianos and poorly scaled pianos, one just has to get through them, but nevertheless one is checking and getting a feeling for the piano and for what is going on and therefore one is in a better position as to what compromises to make and how.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004328 - 12/25/12 03:25 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Mark, on re-reading Dan's statement I think you may have got it right, and I got it wrong.

Is Dan saying in order to obtain progressing 10ths and 17ths up in the treble one should not rely on the 4th, 5th, single and double octave for that particular result?

I actually have misunderstood that statement for some time, but now it has only struck me. I understood it to be saying something else.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004329 - 12/25/12 03:28 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Hi Mark,

I think what Dan is saying is quite clear. He is promoting a technique of being consistent with the approach one takes.

Quote:

"Decide in advance which tests you want your tuning to pass and stick with them.



He is also using the 4ths and 5ths, single and double octaves, as an example of one way to tune the treble.

Quote:

For example, you might decide that, in the treble, you're only going to check 4ths, 5ths, single octaves, and double octaves.


at the same time saying it (the example he uses), is inferior.

Quote:


You're asking for trouble if, after you're finished, you decide to listen to your progression of 10ths and 17ths as well."



I mearly wanted to restate my personally developed technique which uses single octave, double octave, 12ths, and triple octave tests to produce the best compromise of those intervals, while at the same time, producing evenly increasing M10 and M17. You see, the even M10 and M17 are a byproduct of the consistent 1/2/3 octaves and 12ths, not an end-all-and-be-all.

In the end, my posts are only devoted your original subject.

Does anybody else use this "window" technique?

I used it yesterday on a pitch raise of a horrible apartment sized Heintzman with mismatched tenor strings and I was pleased with the result. I recorded some 1/2/3 octaves and 12ths and I will post it eventually.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2004332 - 12/25/12 03:38 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Mark,

I do not use the triple octave test. But I do use the single octave, double octave, M3, M10, M17, M6/M17, P12 and P19 for most of the treble and high treble. Smoothing things out for slightly wide to clean double octaves and or slightly narrow to pure 12ths all depending.

Can you please explain the triple octave test?



Edited by Mark Davis (12/25/12 03:40 PM)
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004338 - 12/25/12 03:50 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Bill Bremmer wrote, "The Octave and 5th comparison with the Double Octave method leads directly to Triple Octaves by and at F6. It is the goal of most of the high level concert techs that I know of."
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004339 - 12/25/12 03:52 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
And Bill also wrote,

"From what I have always understood, the Steinway does have a higher Inharmonicity Profile than a Yamaha. It is my belief that the popular "Equal Temperament with Pure 5ths" style comes mostly from Steinway concert technicians who find out quite naturally that the instrument "wants" to be stretched more than a Baldwin, Yamaha, or Mason & Hamlin. I think what the big mistake may be is to think if that style of tuning is good under those circumstances, then it must be under all.

But Virgil is also no fool. He demonstrated to a group in Chicago once that he could tune ET from a beginning octave that was actually narrow. He also tuned all the octaves much "purer" than he usually does. It created quite a different, "mellower" sound. Some people, some circumstances may require this or any neutral compromise in between. Each choice you make has an effect and just like the intended positive effects of any medicine, there are negative side effects. Drawing a line down the absolute middle will always work, yes but the point is that there are other options."
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004344 - 12/25/12 04:20 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
From readings only, as I did not compare the scaling, Yamaha grand and steinway grand (Hamburg) have asimilar IH.
But, Steinway is providing more partials, that may suffice to allow for a more enlarged tuning, and it also may provide an impression of higher iH.
In the end the iH is just making the pitch less pure, the spectra more "shadowed" , that is not relaly how I would define Steiwnay tone.

What would say that the iH is higher is slower fast beating intervals, possibly Yamaha will be a hair faster but not by much.

Some high tensions scales have low iH and does not accept stretched octaves without sounding harsh . Boesendorfer, Fazioli come to mind.

My theory is not absolutely prooven, as pre WWII French pianos where mounted with soft (and very robust) strings, while they accept large temperament octave (named sometime here "Pleyel temperament" .
Of course we see them with old hardened strings, What I noticed on grand Pleyels when tuned with ETD is that there was a really very low IH in the treble octaves if compared with the mediums to the point some software can be lost.
Try to enlarge the treble octaves then and the tone is out of focus.

When they are tuned as they need they are very pure possibly the wire is really tense a lot and that lower the iH even more



Edited by Kamin (12/25/12 04:20 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2004484 - 12/26/12 06:01 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Anyway, the thread has developed nicely and thanks for your input Isaac. My understanding and experience is limited, though fortunately, it is slowly on the increase. The things which i have asserted and spoken of in my thread i do practice, so I speak from experience, but I do not claim to have arrived or know it all.

I hope and trust that it may be plainly evident that i have made tried and trusted claims, though maybe different from others.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004501 - 12/26/12 07:59 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
There has been some suggestion in this thread that 4:2 octaves in the midrange are ideal. I want to reiterate without any reservation, and ask for those who agree to chime in, that 4:2 octaves in the midrange are unacceptable. They do not sound clean, they produce ringing at the 8:4 and higher, and they result in contracted 12ths and triple octaves. When producing a high quality, concert level tuning, the midrange octaves will always be between a 4:2 and a 6:3 upon analysis.


I continue to disagree but will chime in anyway smile. Stacked 4:2 octaves will ALWAYS produce wide double octaves. The smaller the piano, the wider the double octaves. And they SHOULD be slightly wide. On large grands, between 4:2 and 6:3 is appropriate in the midrange. On studio sized pianos, 4:2 is more appropriate to avoid double octaves that beat too much. And for spinets and most consoles, octaves between 2:1 and 4:2 are best. Interestingly these stretch schemes naturally happen with pure 12ths.

This should be apparent when considering the nature and effects of inharmonicity. When there is no iH, there is no difference between octave types. As iH increases, there is more and more difference. Of course the lower partials should be used when tuning smaller pianos. The lower partials are less affected by iH.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2004531 - 12/26/12 09:43 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
Thanks Mark, I recall that a little insecure feeling that most concert technicians have to some degree (they rely mostly on experience to be certain that their tuning is goos)

I suppose that at some point the tuners kjust stop to bother and they consider their work is "as it is" and that will be good.

the "secret " if an eventual secret exists, is to keep coherence between 5th hence twleves and doubles, and octaves, doubles, triples. This gives a sort of scale the tuner can refer to.

I now listen to tunings by geeting the feel for the level of consonance in the 5th and 6th octave zone.

I can find tunings that sound good in mediums and alittle "pinched" in the beginning of treble.
Others that are excellent and grip the ear nicely in all broken chords venues, but sound a bit harsh if they are to be played in close harmony (always in the same "pivot" place between 5 and 6 th octave.

I would agree for more variations in the way the basses are tuned, than for the most balanced way for the diskant/begin of the treble, I'd say those 5th and 6th octaves must rely closely to the harmony in the center of the piano, then the piano have a strong fundation of 4-5 octaves with maximum congruency.

The rest can probably be tuned in diffeent ways depending of the context, in my opinion.

Then if the tuning is enterely based on slightly tempered 12th balanced with 15th, that scheme can be kept all along because of that strong consonant spot it exite.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2004590 - 12/26/12 01:01 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
I dug around for a post by Don Mannino which I had read quiet some time ago and managed to find it. Don was responding to Bill Bremmers thread/post on ET via Marpurg.

I really do appreciate Don's writings and like this one too and thought it may be helpful to those who may be interested,

" Bill,

That is a nice sequence, and I agree that it is often helpful to start with some verifiable pure intervals, then use them as a point of departure to tune the necessarily non-pure intervals in the temperament. I'll try to play with this sequence a little and see how it works for me.

I use the contiguous 3rds to start my temperament, and the only issue that comes up when I teach others about it is that the width of the octaves is somewhat negotiable, and is a part of the tuning process that can confuse setting smooth contiguous 3rds at the start. If one decides in advance to tune precise 4:2 octaves and you verify them it works pretty easily, but I usually tune a little narrower than that, and occasionally a little wider. So this throws another fudge factor into the initial tuning process that might keep me from being able to claim a truly "perfect" equal temperament.

Tuners who try to simply tune a "clean" octave without using a test can then get very confused trying to make the contiguous 3rds work out. The A3-A4 octave might be 4:2, but the F3-F4 might be a little narrow and the contiguous 3rds get goofed up. And of course, small pianos with not so nice string scales kind of make one have to fudge every step of the way....

Finally, it is interesting to look at a different view of tuning like this, but it is a little dangerous sometimes for people to get overly obsessed with perfection in tuning temperaments. No, I don't mean it's OK to be sloppy, but some tuners do spend an awful lot of time working out a beautiful temperament, only to spoil it with inconsistent octaves and unisons.

I think that's what stops a lot of tuners from bothering with trying new temperaments - they are happy with getting something passable in some of the awful pianos they work with every day, and it just doesn't have relevance to their daily lives to worry too much about this level of perfection.

I do agree it's nice to have a really well tuned temperament in a good piano that is also in great condition. Especially if the temperament is carried out well into the treble and bass with good octaves, and the unisons sing evenly."
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004616 - 12/26/12 01:37 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Another excerpt from a post from Bill Bremmer,

"If you tune a 4:2 octave in the temperament and midrange, it will sound very "pure". This may sound ideal but in fact, the best tuners actually tune something a littel wider than that. But going all the way to a 6:3 is a bit too wide. Therefore, the ideal compromise is something in between."

Though Bill's and some other folks promoted optimal octave size, a 4:2+, may be favoured by many, one needs to realise for varying reasons, many professional tuners will tune their own different "optimal temperament octave" and continue from there.

Please also take note that a 4:2 just octave is clean sounding, I would state without hesitancy that it is cleaner sounding than the 4:2+ octave.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004638 - 12/26/12 02:33 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
According to Rick Baldassin, the area between F3 and E5/F5 is an area that the just 4:2, 4:2+ and 4:2- octave may be tuned, so I suppose any of these octaves would be optimal. The just 4:1, 4:1+ and 4:1- double octaves area is between E3 and C8.




Edited by Mark Davis (12/26/12 02:36 PM)
Edit Reason: minor correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004675 - 12/26/12 04:43 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis


Please also take note that a 4:2 just octave is clean sounding, I would state without hesitancy that it is cleaner sounding than the 4:2+ octave.


This is true, if you can't hear the beating 8:4 partial. This situation occurs the higher up you go, as the 8:4 becomes fainter and approaches the limit of our hearing. Also, older tuners may have some hearing loss and that can make the beating 8:4 hard to hear.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2004676 - 12/26/12 04:45 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
According to Rick Baldassin, the area between F3 and E5/F5 is an area that the just 4:2, 4:2+ and 4:2- octave may be tuned, so I suppose any of these octaves would be optimal. The just 4:1, 4:1+ and 4:1- double octaves area is between E3 and C8.



A narrow 4:2? Maybe in the treble. I would be interested in knowing under what circumstances a 4:2- octave is acceptable according to Rick Baldassin. Rick?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2004681 - 12/26/12 05:14 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Mark, did you read what Don Mannino wrote a few posts earlier? I copied and pasted an old post he wrote.

Let me know your thoughts.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004686 - 12/26/12 05:37 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Mark, just thinking and thought you may be of some assistance,

1. Can one tune a just 4:2 octave as the temperament octave and then tune the double octaves pure from say A#4 to C8?

2. Can one tune a 4:2- octave as the temperament octave and then tune pure 12ths from A#4 to F7 and 2:1 octaves from there up to C8?

3. Are you able to tell me the test/check for the 3:1 triple octave please?
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004760 - 12/26/12 11:59 PM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner


I continue to disagree but will chime in anyway smile. Stacked 4:2 octaves will ALWAYS produce wide double octaves. The smaller the piano, the wider the double octaves. And they SHOULD be slightly wide. On large grands, between 4:2 and 6:3 is appropriate in the midrange. On studio sized pianos, 4:2 is more appropriate to avoid double octaves that beat too much. And for spinets and most consoles, octaves between 2:1 and 4:2 are best. Interestingly these stretch schemes naturally happen with pure 12ths.



That is not my experience. Let's see if we can agree on some things and work from there.

First, let's define some things to make discussion simpler.
Let's define an octave that is tuned between a 4:2 and a 6:3 as a 4:2+, meaning slightly wider than a 4:2, but narrower than a 6:3.

Do you agree that a 4:2+ octave produces:

very wide 2:1
wide 4:2
narrow 6:3
very narrow 8:4

where the term "very" is used to indicate only slightly more wide or narrow than just the term wide or narrow.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2004763 - 12/27/12 12:26 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi Mark,

Sorry I did not reply to your earlier post asking for clarification. I will now.

Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Mark, just thinking and thought you may be of some assistance,

1. Can one tune a just 4:2 octave as the temperament octave and then tune the double octaves pure from say A#4 to C8?


The first double octave available is F3F5, so A#4 to E5 can't be checked.
The test for the pure 4:1 double octave (at F3F5) is
Db3F3 = Db3F5. (M3=M17)

You can tune with pure 4:1 octaves but you will end up with very narrow 12ths and narrow triple octaves.


Originally Posted By: Mark Davis

2. Can one tune a 4:2- octave as the temperament octave and then tune pure 12ths from A#4 to F7 and 2:1 octaves from there up to C8?


The temperament can be tuned using any temperament octave size. Then the octaves above can be tuned using any size as well. The question is "what will it sound like?". Pure 3:1 12ths will result in noisy double and triple octaves. 2:1 octaves in the treble sound fine by themselves, but don't produce clean double and triple octaves below.

Pure 12ths are only available to be checked starting with C5. (F3C5) The 4:2- octaves in the F3A4 temperament will sound wonky, with much noise in the treble. Their quality can not be maintained with pure 12ths; keeping 4:2- will produce extremely narrow 12ths.

Originally Posted By: Mark Davis

3. Are you able to tell me the test/check for the 3:1 triple octave please?


m6 below = M17
Example: Tuning F6
F3Db4 = Db4F6

But the secret is fitting F6 into the P4 "window"

Play these one after another and listen for increasing beat speeds: (Note, the difference in these speeds is extremely small.)

M3<M10<M17<M6

Db4F4 < Db4F5 < Db4F6 < Db4Bb4

then check the triple octave.

Hope that helps.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2004766 - 12/27/12 12:41 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi Mark,

I found the post you referred to. Here are my comments.

Originally Posted By: Mark Davis quoting Don Mannino

I use the contiguous 3rds to start my temperament, and the only issue that comes up when I teach others about it is that the width of the octaves is somewhat negotiable, and is a part of the tuning process that can confuse setting smooth contiguous 3rds at the start. If one decides in advance to tune precise 4:2 octaves and you verify them[,] it works pretty easily...


The technique of contiguous 3rds starts with two octaves, A3A4 and F3F4. If they are not the same size, getting smoothly increasing 3rds is impossible.


Originally Posted By: Mark Davis quoting Don Mannino

...but I usually tune a little narrower than that...


That really baffles me. I will need to look into this more. I cannot bare to tune 4:2- in the temperament. They are not clean what-so-ever. Please somebody respond. What is he talking about?

Originally Posted By: Mark Davis quoting Don Mannino

...and occasionally a little wider. So this throws another fudge factor into the initial tuning process that might keep me from being able to claim a truly "perfect" equal temperament.


Still baffled. How does the F3F4 and A3A4 octave size affect the ability to tune the temperament and get evenly increasing M3s, which is by definition, ET? And what is "perfect equal temperament"?

Originally Posted By: Mark Davis quoting Don Mannino

Tuners who try to simply tune a "clean" octave without using a test can then get very confused trying to make the contiguous 3rds work out. The A3-A4 octave might be 4:2, but the F3-F4 might be a little narrow and the contiguous 3rds get goofed up.


Right on!

Thanks for the post.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2004774 - 12/27/12 01:58 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Thanks Mark for your posts

I agree with a lot of what you say, but not everything.

I would like to bring to your attention your inconsistency with regard to you saying you tune whole tone as Virgil did, but then you constantly speak about certain partials ringing here and there and everywhere.

Though I agree that there is a system of tuning partials and that partials may and do ring, here and there and everywhere, what I am saying with regards to whole tone tuning is that it is possible to produce a top quality tuning by whole tone tuning alone, without any worrying about partials ringing.

Did not Virgil do it?

The other thing is this, which you are not grasping/accepting and that is this, which I have been saying throughout this thread and say it again and I do think that this was the key to a powerful technique of and for tuning, but nothing fancy, but which Virgil said and practiced,

"Tuning checks are essential for evaluating the accuracy of the tuning, both during the tuning and when it is completed. It is important to know that each note being tuned is correct, because of the other notes being tuned to it.

Much time can be wasted in retuning notes that were incorrectly tuned to notes not correctly tuned. An octave or interval may sound acceptable, but still not be in tune.

Playing an octave or chord is not a reliable tuning check; neither is playing a piece after the tuning is finished. A skilled tuner can eliminate that "out of tune" feeling (sound) and make the tuning sound acceptable in a few minutes, but the piano will not really be in tune.

The amount of expansion and contraction of each interval necessaery to achieve a quality equal tempered tuning (I would go so far as to say all tuning, whether E.T or H.T), can only be determined by use of tuning checks. Checks are used before the note is tuned to determine if the note is sharp or flat and by how much,during the tuning, and after it is tuned to check the accuracy of the tuning."

Thanks,
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004781 - 12/27/12 02:58 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Hi Mark,

Sorry I did not reply to your earlier post asking for clarification. I will now.

Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Mark, just thinking and thought you may be of some assistance,

1. Can one tune a just 4:2 octave as the temperament octave and then tune the double octaves pure from say A#4 to C8?


The first double octave available is F3F5, so A#4 to E5 can't be checked.
The test for the pure 4:1 double octave (at F3F5) is
Db3F3 = Db3F5. (M3=M17)

You can tune with pure 4:1 octaves but you will end up with very narrow 12ths and narrow triple octaves.


Originally Posted By: Mark Davis

2. Can one tune a 4:2- octave as the temperament octave and then tune pure 12ths from A#4 to F7 and 2:1 octaves from there up to C8?


The temperament can be tuned using any temperament octave size. Then the octaves above can be tuned using any size as well. The question is "what will it sound like?". Pure 3:1 12ths will result in noisy double and triple octaves. 2:1 octaves in the treble sound fine by themselves, but don't produce clean double and triple octaves below.

Pure 12ths are only available to be checked starting with C5. (F3C5) The 4:2- octaves in the F3A4 temperament will sound wonky, with much noise in the treble. Their quality can not be maintained with pure 12ths; keeping 4:2- will produce extremely narrow 12ths.

Originally Posted By: Mark Davis

3. Are you able to tell me the test/check for the 3:1 triple octave please?


m6 below = M17
Example: Tuning F6
F3Db4 = Db4F6

But the secret is fitting F6 into the P4 "window"

Play these one after another and listen for increasing beat speeds: (Note, the difference in these speeds is extremely small.)

M3<M10<M17<M6

Db4F4 < Db4F5 < Db4F6 < Db4Bb4

then check the triple octave.

Hope that helps.


Yes, it does help and I agree.

Though I may not agree with you on certain things you have said, here I agree and accept.

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
But the secret is fitting F6 into the P4 "window"


Mark, please will you explain what you mean here.

Thank you.


Edited by Mark Davis (12/27/12 03:34 AM)
Edit Reason: minor correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2004820 - 12/27/12 07:19 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner


I continue to disagree but will chime in anyway smile. Stacked 4:2 octaves will ALWAYS produce wide double octaves. The smaller the piano, the wider the double octaves. And they SHOULD be slightly wide. On large grands, between 4:2 and 6:3 is appropriate in the midrange. On studio sized pianos, 4:2 is more appropriate to avoid double octaves that beat too much. And for spinets and most consoles, octaves between 2:1 and 4:2 are best. Interestingly these stretch schemes naturally happen with pure 12ths.



That is not my experience. Let's see if we can agree on some things and work from there.

First, let's define some things to make discussion simpler.
Let's define an octave that is tuned between a 4:2 and a 6:3 as a 4:2+, meaning slightly wider than a 4:2, but narrower than a 6:3.

Do you agree that a 4:2+ octave produces:

very wide 2:1
wide 4:2
narrow 6:3
very narrow 8:4

where the term "very" is used to indicate only slightly more wide or narrow than just the term wide or narrow.



Sure, we can agree that a wide 4:2 produces a wider 2:1 (measured in cents) and a narrow 6:3 produces a narrower 8:4 (again, measured in cents). Whether the term VERY wide or VERY narrow is appropriate is really up to interpretation. On a concert grand there is much less difference between octave types than on a spinet.

If we can agree that the difference in octave types is dependent on iH (the size of the piano) then we can continue our discussion to include the effect of the octave type and iH on the double octave.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2004824 - 12/27/12 07:33 AM Re: Clean Sounding/Beatless Octaves [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Hi Mark,

I found the post you referred to. Here are my comments.

Originally Posted By: Mark Davis quoting Don Mannino

I use the contiguous 3rds to start my temperament, and the only issue that comes up when I teach others about it is that the width of the octaves is somewhat negotiable, and is a part of the tuning process that can confuse setting smooth contiguous 3rds at the start. If one decides in advance to tune precise 4:2 octaves and you verify them[,] it works pretty easily...


The technique of contiguous 3rds starts with two octaves, A3A4 and F3F4. If they are not the same size, getting smoothly increasing 3rds is impossible.


Originally Posted By: Mark Davis quoting Don Mannino

...but I usually tune a little narrower than that...


That really baffles me. I will need to look into this more. I cannot bare to tune 4:2- in the temperament. They are not clean what-so-ever. Please somebody respond. What is he talking about?

Originally Posted By: Mark Davis quoting Don Mannino

...and occasionally a little wider. So this throws another fudge factor into the initial tuning process that might keep me from being able to claim a truly "perfect" equal temperament.


Still baffled. How does the F3F4 and A3A4 octave size affect the ability to tune the temperament and get evenly increasing M3s, which is by definition, ET? And what is "perfect equal temperament"?

Originally Posted By: Mark Davis quoting Don Mannino

Tuners who try to simply tune a "clean" octave without using a test can then get very confused trying to make the contiguous 3rds work out. The A3-A4 octave might be 4:2, but the F3-F4 might be a little narrow and the contiguous 3rds get goofed up.


Right on!

Thanks for the post.


Mark:

I see no problem with ET being possible with any width octave (or any width of any other interval for that matter) even if the octave changes width, as long as it changes progressively. However, I do see a problem of defining ET as progressive M3s. (You can take a clinical ET and raise F, A and C# 50 cents or more and still have progressive M3s.) A better RBI definition would be progressive M3s and M6s.

And I too, along with Mr. Mannino, tune narrow 4:2 octaves in the mid range. I don't know if we do it for the same reason, however. I do it on small pianos. It keeps the double octaves from beating too fast.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
Page 2 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
92 registered (ando, Anticlock, 26 invisible), 1397 Guests and 17 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75588 Members
42 Forums
156298 Topics
2295423 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Tight Key ??
by moy71
Today at 01:15 AM
Learning progress
by sunnyday
Today at 01:10 AM
How old is a Ahlborn-Galanti Digital Pipe Organ Chronicler
by Chopinlover49
Yesterday at 10:55 PM
1906 Steinway K52 purchase for recording studio?
by nlive
Yesterday at 10:44 PM
Marc-André Hamelin discusses Rachmaninoff
by vers la flan
Yesterday at 09:59 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission