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#2004019 - 12/24/12 03:20 PM increasing resistance in action on new k3
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Hi, just pondering wether its possible to increase the resistance with my first tuning coming up soon.

Seemed to get much more dynamic control today from playing 4 different acoustics in a store than my k3. Its traini g my to be a better pianist however if it can be adjusted slightly for more resistance in stroke but not initial press i would be most happy.


Either way i am very happy with my piano.


Thankyou for any advice.
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#2004066 - 12/24/12 05:48 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1889
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Do you want added resistance during stroke when playing the key slowly or fast?
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#2004068 - 12/24/12 05:59 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Playing slowly really. Alberti baseline at pace was much easier to control on the pianos earlier so ideally i need more control of pianissimo. I know technique plays a big part but anything i can do would be wonderful. On a u1, b3 and u3 (old one and brand new one) the control of soft playing seemed much easier than my new k3.
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#2004071 - 12/24/12 06:06 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1889
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I assume K3 is a vertical piano. Without re-engineering the center of gravity of the hammer assembly, having stronger hammer return springs would be where I would start.
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#2004077 - 12/24/12 06:21 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Ok.
Thankyou for your suggestion. Yes the k3 is an upright and a modern action. I was hoping of a possible adjustment without any major investment but doubtful of a magic solution. My control is improving however the pianos i played earlier seemed much easier to control dynamics at speed...
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#2004096 - 12/24/12 07:28 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
If you piano is new, Paul, I would discuss the issue with your dealer by phone, before the tech comes out to do the tuning. Sometimes, for these included tunings, they will send someone who is less skilled--- but you want someone who would be able to even up the action, or at least evaluate whether the issue is with the piano, or the player.

I couldn't quite make out if some unevenness in the action is the problem you're describing. If it is, it can be adjusted--- probably at the dealer's expense. These adjustments really should be made before a new piano is sent to the customer. Then again, sometimes tuning and settling will take care of the problem of the player's perception of unevenness in the action--- sometimes the problem is with the sound, not the action.

Then again... are you a pounder? Are you already pounding your new piano to death, and have thereby knocked it out of regulation before the first tuning? If that is the case, it is the player that needs to be fixed, not the piano.

If you have found that you just don't like the piano, now that you have heard it at home, this would be the time to open a discussion with the dealer about possibly exchanging it for a different model.

I don't think adjustments to the regulation by the dealer's own tech, would void your warranty... but doing some big job on the keys might be another story.

Merry Christmas, good luck with it--- and let us know how it goes.
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#2004105 - 12/24/12 08:18 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
It could be that all the piano needs is a full regulation. Maybe it wasn't prepped properly to begin with. I've encountered that quite often throughout the years. You might be surprised at how much a difference a good regulation can do.
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#2004115 - 12/24/12 09:12 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I am a bit concerned about a piano which is brand new and already there is a complaint about the action not having enough resistance.
Originally Posted By: UK Paul UK
Seemed to get much more dynamic control today from playing 4 different acoustics in a store than my k3.
My question would be: why did you purchase the K3 and not one of the pianos that you preferred, touch wise? Perhaps it is not too late to make an exchange. That might be a real solution, instead of relying on assurances from a dealer that they will make it suitable for you.
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#2004124 - 12/24/12 09:32 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Quite possibly the issue still lies with me.... i'm on the lookout for a new teacher and a local guy does teach in home so i am considering aaking himto come up, kill two birds with one stone by him evaluating my piano and me evaluating his playing on the piano myself... might be a sensible idea.
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#2004200 - 12/25/12 04:52 AM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
The Kawai action is VERY special and if the tech is not trained by Kawai you cna forget about pleasing regulation.

I have seen that so many times...

The trick is not that difficult nor extraordinary, but if you try to regulate as a Yamaha or a Steinway, it simply does not work well (not saying it is too light but this designation is really unclear, as others said gernerally speaking a normal good regulation give a good control on the hammer weight so there is no problem of action "too light" then...

For the record, I have met a grand Shigeru that was unpleasing for one year since the shigeru trained tech regulated it (I came after him that is why I have seen how the regulation is done)

Another person who works in a piano shop and give lessons, keep hers for years and trades for a Yamaha after bein unable to have it regulated to his like.


The RX series need a regulation tweak in winter (not that it is so different on other brands)

I dont know the K series but I am ready to see pianists surprised with the touch...


PS the RX series with a 60g DW for 30g UW cannot be considered as "light", also the mellowness of the bottom of key add some effort when one play (but firmer punchings raise the action noise a little and it can be noticed)

PPS correctly regulated, a Shigeru can be agreable, in fact easy to have a round tone whatever the force used.

Always a bit more inertia than I like , on Kawai grands, if you are not a seasoned pianist this will be accepted more easily after reinforcing your fingers


Edited by Kamin (12/25/12 04:58 AM)
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#2004203 - 12/25/12 05:02 AM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
Your new action have been played in an automat at the factory, despite that it will need some settling at home , at that time the regulation is really prone to change.

Possibly there is some margin left initially so when the parts settle the regulation get better , but it need to be done/evened by a tech anyway.

If one want a more predicteable object better buy a car, or eventually some of the major brands have regulation done 3 times and well set at the factory; This takes much time, so only on the more expensive models (and depending of the action this will be effective or less once the piano is delivered)

special mention to Yamaha for the precision of the regulation, before delivery...


Edited by Kamin (12/25/12 05:05 AM)
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#2004276 - 12/25/12 11:58 AM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1101
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
If the action is "too light" that can mean several things. It is possible that the hammers have brightened up since new,( a very common thing), and what you are looking for as a pianist is voicing. I have often had customers that registered a voicing as making the piano heavier and more controllable. Conversely, I have almost aways heard customers say that a lacquering of the hammers made the piano lighter...
It is a simple matter to add a weight to the rear of the keys, or to apply a small metal clip to the hammershank. Both of these are fast, cheap, and quickly undone if desired. Trying to increase resistance by increasing the hammer springs is difficult to do evenly, and difficult to undo.
I bet it is the voicing.
Regards,

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#2004299 - 12/25/12 01:22 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Having the damper lift earlier in the cycle will make a heavier touch on an upright.
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#2004330 - 12/25/12 03:31 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
I did not notice it was a vertical, they are not light generally but if the tone brightens the dynamic is so reduced the tone is not easy to manage...

Early damper rise is a trick, but you can have bobbling hammers more easily if you play lightly, it also confuse the sensation of the bottom of the key because of the springy feel coming sooner in the finger.

Silent pianos are often regeulated with early damper raise to counteract the light feel due to the loss of propulsion with early letoff. Whenever possible I wish the tone to be produced when the key bottoms, with minimal springiness coming from the baccheck wire, It seem to give moreonctrol to the tone.


Happy backchecks and Christmas to all families
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#2004352 - 12/25/12 05:18 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Thankyou all for your advice.

I have emailed a technitian and will hopefully hear back soon. I think the first thing i need to do is get a professional to evaluate..... itll be a relief if something like hammer voicing can be done to aleviate the issue... until i get some feedback i will keep on practicing but will update asap.
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#2004369 - 12/25/12 07:37 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1923
Loc: Suffolk, England
I am a little bemused by this thread. The piano was delivered only a month ago after your selection day at Kawai. The touch was fantastic then, though less firm than your tutor's Yamaha grand.

Now it seems it may need voicing, dynamic control at pace does not compare with Yamaha uprights, and the action is not as good as it might be for playing slowly.

Before the technician comes to evaluate whether the piano meets its specifications might it be a good idea to do some tests of your own to establish where any problems lie? For example do the notes feel even when you play each one separately at ppp and fff and all levels in between? If not what are the differences? Same with chords, arpeggios, and so on.

According to the tuner, who is also a musician and piano teacher, my upright has a much lighter touch than Kawais and Yamahas but he said it was very good for "those trills" and it plays well slowly.

Have you seen "Improve your Piano Playing" by John Meffen? He advocates stopping and analysing playing problems such as the Alberti bass you mention. You can pick it up on Amazon Marketplace for as little as 25p!
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Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2004389 - 12/25/12 09:14 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2401
Loc: Olympia, WA
Are you sure the piano that was delivered was the same exact piano that you played at the store? Sometimes a mix up can occur. It is always a good idea to write down the serial number when selecting a piano at a store to be sure the exact same piano arrives at the home.
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#2004487 - 12/26/12 06:36 AM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Its definately the same piano and its had quite a turbulant time with the first 2 weeks it not having heating and for the last three being a constant temparature cosy warm.... so im going to calm down and get it tuned next week since itll be 6 weeks since recieving it.... out of tune is highly likely which could well be giving me the impression the dynamic range is limited....

Plenty of great advice here... thankyou all. Chances are that the piano has just gradually shifted tuning, hour and a half daily play with temperature changes so day to day not noticing the changes.... time will tell and ill update when i can.
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#2004818 - 12/27/12 07:14 AM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: Olek]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1923
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Whenever possible I wish the tone to be produced when the key bottoms, with minimal springiness coming from the baccheck wire, It seem to give moreonctrol to the tone.

Kamin,

I understand "Whenever possible I wish the tone to be produced when the key bottoms" but what exactly do you mean by "minimal springiness coming from the backcheck wire"? If all other things are equal, is the result less key dip with, perhaps, some adjustment of the backcheck?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2004827 - 12/27/12 07:45 AM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
On a vertical, the key dip to hammer travel relation is as important as on agrand.
If the aftertouch is large, what is felt at the bottom is the compression of the backcheck wire.

On verticals aftertouch is better minimal, the backcheck is not helping to perceive the real aftertouch, the vertical action can be stopped more by the backheck than the front punching (sometime it can even not touch the punching without being really noticed if the cloth is soft)

I rarely have to change the backcheck angle, on a vertical, but I decide the hammer travel with the wanted key dip (9.80 to 10.2 mm)

I want the jack to just barely move away from the butt leather when the hammer is in check at the correct string distance (more in the basses than in the treble)

I use a factory method to find the correct hammer travel, will send that to you by PM.

To chase for unevenesses you can lower 3 keys and have a look at the jack position (with a good light)

the jack security rail can be regulated accurately in the end, that will help for fast repetition (it avoid too large oscillations of the jack, so the repetition spring is more efficient)

On verticals we are obliged to take in account the season (dry or humid) a tight key to whippen regulation is allowed only in humid season, the actual key frame backrail cloth thickness is changing noticeabley, most often (more sensitive on verticals because of less long keys, possibly the key bed is more reacting to moisture than on grands too.
In humid season, the jack may come back in place while rubbing lightly on the butt leather.

The handle of a tool when used in glissando with moderate pressure on the keys, just in front of the capstans, may not produce a move of the hammers.







Edited by Kamin (12/27/12 07:47 AM)
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#2008629 - 01/03/13 04:22 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Well i have had a tuner come and do the 6 week tuneup. His opinion was the k3 operates perfectly well, although he did raise the practice felt as it was fouling the tops of the hammers when raised....

I think my initial doubts with the piano have been laid to rest and its more a case of my key stroke, more work needed to control the i initial force to start the key movement is too abrupt and not smoothly transitioning into control of the downstroke.... more work in progress!:-)
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#2008643 - 01/03/13 04:47 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
Hence you need more control on your shoulders and arm's weight, they give you the force, the fingers have just to transmit it.

The first thing to work for many pianists is how to sit at the instrument with a relaxed shoulder, then how to have the arm "levitating " without a conscious effort (as if the anckles where hold by threads, as a puppet.

This is of course only to learn sensations, but the mental trick is efficient. Many teachers today learn the student to manage the "free fall of the arm" ; a good vertical posture with the body in equilibrium on the bone at the bottom of the skeleton, a free fall of the arm, and the tone immediately is full and quiet.

That said, a piano is always "playeable" you may have a piano that need to be broken in a little more , the model also is possibly tending to be heavy.

To have agood tone, the begin of the acceleration may be quiet enough to keep control on the hammer the longer possible. On a vertical piano , the energy is transmitted very soon and efficiently to the hammer, so if your impact is too "speeed" or tense, the hammer is moving before the jack soon, you loose control and cannot manipulate the tone.

The arms weight even thin give all necessary power, but fingers have to be trained so they relax until the effort and immediately after it. Pianist reinforce the inside of the palm (the arch) so to have a good resistance, the muscles of the fingers are going up to the inside of the hand. Then the ankle is dealing with the equilibrium , moving laterally and/or in circular motion so the weight is coming where it is needed and the hand does not fall on its side...

The other source of power is the opening of the elbow, this gives a very strong impulsion toward the piano. That power can be obtained from the feet of the pianist, that is why you see the pianists literally jumping on their seat when they need a lot of power without being able to raise their hand above the keyboard...

Good pianos teachers gives bases such that, today, then the student learn fast...
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#2009014 - 01/04/13 03:34 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: Olek]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Hence you need more control on your shoulders and arm's weight, they give you the force, the fingers have just to transmit it.

The first thing to work for many pianists is how to sit at the instrument with a relaxed shoulder, then how to have the arm "levitating " without a conscious effort (as if the anckles where hold by threads, as a puppet.

This is of course only to learn sensations, but the mental trick is efficient. Many teachers today learn the student to manage the "free fall of the arm" ; a good vertical posture with the body in equilibrium on the bone at the bottom of the skeleton, a free fall of the arm, and the tone immediately is full and quiet.





Thankyou for your indepth comment above. I have just managed to change piano teacher, been trying to get a slot with this fellow and finally, last night , he agreed to take me on. A major step up in standards i hope, has his own studio and constantly full but i persisted and now, after two years of him unable due to fit me in, he is happy to guide me. Very excited as i know his pedigree... 8.45 pm lesson weekly, shows his busy schedule of work! Time to get to grips with my magical passion.
That said, a piano is always "playeable" you may have a piano that need to be broken in a little more , the model also is possibly tending to be heavy.

To have agood tone, the begin of the acceleration may be quiet enough to keep control on the hammer the longer possible. On a vertical piano , the energy is transmitted very soon and efficiently to the hammer, so if your impact is too "speeed" or tense, the hammer is moving before the jack soon, you loose control and cannot manipulate the tone.

The arms weight even thin give all necessary power, but fingers have to be trained so they relax until the effort and immediately after it. Pianist reinforce the inside of the palm (the arch) so to have a good resistance, the muscles of the fingers are going up to the inside of the hand. Then the ankle is dealing with the equilibrium , moving laterally and/or in circular motion so the weight is coming where it is needed and the hand does not fall on its side...

The other source of power is the opening of the elbow, this gives a very strong impulsion toward the piano. That power can be obtained from the feet of the pianist, that is why you see the pianists literally jumping on their seat when they need a lot of power without being able to raise their hand above the keyboard...

Good pianos teachers gives bases such that, today, then the student learn fast...

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#2009064 - 01/04/13 05:25 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Thanks for your indepth and very interesting reply kamin...


As it happens, yesterday i was finally accepted to study with a destinguished local piano teacher.... ive asked sporadically for the last couple of years and after 3 months with my (now ex) teacher i was fairly convinced we didnt gel.... so... as luck would have it, i will soon be getting the pleasure of piano lessons in a piano studio ( built on his house- nice if you can get it!) On one of his range of uprights or his grand.... happy days!


I will reference your points on posture and im sure he will be most willing and importantly most able to help me....


Regards

Paul.
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#2009065 - 01/04/13 05:27 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Ps

Its taken this long to get a place as he is constantly busy...... my slot is at 8.45pm.... shows he either has very long days or doesnt like mornings! :-)
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#2009111 - 01/04/13 07:17 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3511
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: UK Paul UK
Ps

Its taken this long to get a place as he is constantly busy...... my slot is at 8.45pm.... shows he either has very long days or doesnt like mornings! :-)


Most teachers start mid-late afternoon and work through to about 9pm. It's not unusual. It's because of giving children a chance to get home from school.

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#2009179 - 01/04/13 10:48 PM Re: increasing resistance in action on new k3 [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
I hope his patients wont be too frayed then... being at the tail end of his day. Still, i seriously doubt its a drawback in the grand scheme of things. Looking forward to our first lessons in a week...
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