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#2008315 - 01/03/13 01:22 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: Aldous]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4831
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Aldous
He's fishing. Perhaps, even trolling.


Neither, actually. Crazy, right?!

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#2008770 - 01/03/13 10:43 PM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: JoelW]
spk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 7
are you kidding me, man?
The Fantasie is licentiate diploma level stuff.

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#2008810 - 01/04/13 01:15 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: JoelW]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Is part of the “difficulty-level” of Chopin’s Fantasia Opus 49 due to the sight-reading of the big LH “jumps” to the score? (especially from m21-m32)

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#2008818 - 01/04/13 01:26 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: btb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: btb
Is part of the “difficulty-level” of Chopin’s Fantasia Opus 49 due to the sight-reading of the big LH “jumps” to the score? (especially from m21-m32)

Are you joking? grin

Nothing whatsoever to do with the "sight-reading," nor with the score reading. smile

It's the playing.

And those measures near the beginning are far from the most demanding part of the piece! (Didn't even count measures; I didn't have to. Nothing so early in the piece is anything like that.) Musically they do present challenges, but....that's subtle.

P.S. You know a lot.
Didn't you really know all that? grin

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#2008821 - 01/04/13 02:07 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: JoelW]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Well, well Mark ... you trash my opinion ... so I’ll put on my crash helmet.

I’ve just played through the first 32 measures on my Grotrian Steinweg and can’t see the difficulty ... but then as you know, I use a graphic system of writing music which has given me the advantage of easy prima vista playing.

In typical Chopin layout the first statement is contained in the opening 4 measures ... by m11-12 Fred grumbles a repeat of m5-6 with LH chords deep down in the bass.

However from m20 we get a jerky divergence of hands ... with the LH moving DOWN and the RH moving UP.

Might I ask (please no rocks) if you can play the first 32 measures of the Fantasia?

Kind regards, btb


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#2008830 - 01/04/13 03:16 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: btb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Oy. ha

btb, I see that you actually answered it yourself!

Originally Posted By: btb
....I’ve just played through the first 32 measures on my Grotrian Steinweg and can’t see the difficulty....

Right!
And play on further, my friend!

BTW, I didn't trash your opinion. What I did was, I doubted that it was your actual opinion.
I do think you know better. Much better. smile

Maybe the whole problem is that I still don't really know how to read your posts.... grin

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#2008893 - 01/04/13 09:02 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: JoelW]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
btb -

With all due respect, the real fun doesn't start until later in the piece - jump to 2:40 in this video and you'll "hear" what I mean (follow along with the score).

http://youtu.be/c0WTVy7XhlE

And here's Part 2, starting with the prayer-like middle section.....

http://youtu.be/kEWdl8YJCAg

Cheers !!
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2008911 - 01/04/13 10:02 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: JoelW]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks for that carey ...

Thanks chaps ... I’ve dug out the Fantaisie Opus 49 disc ... and carefully listened to the rendition with the 18-page score in hand.
(composed in 1841 when Chopin was 31 years old.)

But, upon coming back to the ranch
(putting my six-shooter on the mantlepiece till I next see Mark) ... why would anybody want to choose this Fantaisie to impress the judges ... when there is a wagon-load of breathtaking Chopin works crying out for a daring airing?

The Fantasy structure is any composer’s excuse to bend the rules ... and frig around with tempo and indulge in inconsequential rubato ... with lashings of scalar and chromatic runs ... boring stuff.

When the chappie gets it right as with the Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66 ... we all go into adoration mode.

But I suppose the OP chappie is looking for something which is not “run-of-the-mill” (perhaps layered in dust and possibly on the skids for eternal hibernation (remembering that this work is posthumous and only published after the death of Chopin in 1849.)

My guess is that Chopin didn’t want this work to see the light of day ... he had already written his masterpiece ... Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66.

Well, well ... I feel better now.

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#2008925 - 01/04/13 10:40 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: carey]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8905
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: carey

With all due respect, the real fun doesn't start until later in the piece - jump to 2:40 in this video and you'll "hear" what I mean

YT videos always stall out at work, so not sure what is happening @ 2:40, but I always thought the real 'festivities' of the piece commenced at measure 109 with the contrarily moving octaves. Few passages I can immediately think of are so prone to inaccuracies at full tempo.

Some years ago I heard a famous pianist completely bomb out at that point in concert. I felt really badly for him. (Out of respect, the pianist will remain anonymous, but it's a name everyone on this board knows.)
_________________________
Jason

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#2008938 - 01/04/13 11:44 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: argerichfan]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5280
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: carey

With all due respect, the real fun doesn't start until later in the piece - jump to 2:40 in this video and you'll "hear" what I mean

YT videos always stall out at work, so not sure what is happening @ 2:40, but I always thought the real 'festivities' of the piece commenced at measure 109 with the contrarily moving octaves. Few passages I can immediately think of are so prone to inaccuracies at full tempo.

Some years ago I heard a famous pianist completely bomb out at that point in concert. I felt really badly for him. (Out of respect, the pianist will remain anonymous, but it's a name everyone on this board knows.)


I watched the great No-Wrong-Notes Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli split a note there once...

But I think you're referring to someone else.

For a wrong-note passage, I think the coda to the March of Schumann's Fantasy in C takes the biscuit. Horowitz's comeback concert was particularly dire - even after he patched up a few notes on his so-called 'live' recording released on LP. I obtained the back-to-basics unadulterated version that Sony (much later) released on CD....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2008948 - 01/04/13 12:45 PM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: btb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: btb
....why would anybody want to choose this Fantaisie to impress the judges ... when there is a wagon-load of breathtaking Chopin works crying out for a daring airing?

The Fantasy structure is any composer’s excuse to bend the rules ... and frig around with tempo and indulge in inconsequential rubato ... with lashings of scalar and chromatic runs ... boring stuff.

When the chappie gets it right as with the Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66 ... we all go into adoration mode....

My guess is that Chopin didn’t want this work to see the light of day ... he had already written his masterpiece ... Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66....

Double oy. grin

BTW that last thing, about Chopin not wanting the piece to see the light of day, is clearly mistaken.

btb, even after being together on this site for about 100 years, I still don't know how serious you are about 90% of what you say, and I'd bet you've been pulling our leg with most of this. But you do have a unique and creative style. smile

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#2008983 - 01/04/13 02:30 PM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: btb]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: btb

My guess is that Chopin didn’t want this work to see the light of day ... he had already written his masterpiece ... Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66.
Well, well ... I feel better now.


Glad you feel better - but you're wrong !!

From the Vancouver Chopin Society Website regarding the Opus 49....

"This large-scaled composition is considered one of Chopin’s masterpieces. The Fantasy opens with a solemn and mysterious march-like introduction leading to a passionate drama with a central chorale, Lento sostenuto, of unusual serenity. Niecks felt “Chopin’s genius had now reached the most perfect stage of its development and was radiating with all the intensity of which its nature was capable.” "

As for the Opus 66 Fantaisie-Impromptu - it was published against Chopin's wishes after his death. Apparently he didn't feel it was up to snuff. crazy
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2008988 - 01/04/13 02:39 PM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: JoelW]
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1467
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
Seems like something out of Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter.

-Daniel
_________________________
Currently working on:
-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

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#2009093 - 01/04/13 06:34 PM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: carey]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Help me out. smile

Is it possible that someone as knowledgeable as btb would have really thought the main difficulty was where he said, and that he would have doubted that someone even half-accomplished would be able easily to play the notes? I really can't imagine it -- and most of the time I can imagine almost anything. ha

I think this is a little important. It's good to know how seriously to take things. smile

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#2009095 - 01/04/13 06:45 PM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6169
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Help me out. smile

Is it possible that someone as knowledgeable as btb would have really thought the main difficulty was where he said, and that he would have doubted that someone even half-accomplished would be able easily to play the notes? I really can't imagine it -- and most of the time I can imagine almost anything. ha

I think this is a little important. It's good to know how seriously to take things. smile


I think your premise is faulty.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2009097 - 01/04/13 06:49 PM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: Mark_C]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Help me out. smile

Is it possible that someone as knowledgeable as btb would have really thought the main difficulty was where he said, and that he would have doubted that someone even half-accomplished would be able easily to play the notes? I really can't imagine it -- and most of the time I can imagine almost anything. ha

I think this is a little important. It's good to know how seriously to take things. smile


Mark - One thing I've learned around here is to not make assumptions about anything....... ha

btb was either serious - or pulling our collective legs.

Nevertheless, I offered the info above, in part, just to see how he'd react. (Testing the waters so to speak.......) wink
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2009100 - 01/04/13 06:55 PM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
I think your premise is faulty.

If you mean the premise that I think you mean grin ....I can see how one might think that, and for quite a while I easily sort of assumed it myself, until I saw (to my satisfaction, which doesn't mean it's right) that it's as I said. smile

BTW if Stores were still here, he'd have a field day with this post.

In fact, I can do it myself!


"Wow, just wow." ha

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#2009255 - 01/05/13 02:20 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: JoelW]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Adding a bow to Mark's "wow" (see bottom of page)

Later generations are said to regard the
Fantaisie Opus 49 of Chopin as a masterpiece ...
but not this chicken ...
Chalk and cheese after I had played the Fantaisie Impromptu Opus 66.

And let it be said from the rooftops ... as you chaps well know ...
I know better.

PS I'm homeless ... but a piece of cardboard shields the rain ...
it’s passing dogs with raised legs who need watching.

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#2009260 - 01/05/13 02:42 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: btb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
You're a poet, and you know it. smile

Originally Posted By: btb
And let it be said from the rooftops ... as you chaps well know ...
I know better.

Yes, I thought so.


And I hope you're not serious about that last part, and I suspect you're not, among other reasons because I don't think very many homeless are able to be active on the internet, but who knows....and if you are serious, I can only say I hope you're all right.

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#2009269 - 01/05/13 03:03 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: JoelW]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks for staying in the mix Mark ... anything I say will always have a lampooning jibe ... to unhinge any straight-laced stay-at-homes ... and remind them that there is a lot of fun out there ... if they get off their backsides and smell the roses ... sometimes a case of grab the nettle! ( but I wear gloves).

The Internet provides a marvellous phantasy world ...
where the daring can go on a magic carpet ride to hitherto undreamt worlds.

PS Must just tell you that I’ve dredged up a stunning record of the King ‘s Singers ...

The Windmills of Your Mind
I’m a Train
Fool On the Hill
Java Jive
Life on Mars
A Horse with No Name
She’s Leaving Home
God Bless Joanna
Strawberry Hills Forever
For the Peace of all Mankind
A Taste of Honey

Anybody remember?

Hang in there Mike!

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#2009360 - 01/05/13 09:36 AM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: btb]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: btb

Later generations are said to regard the
Fantaisie Opus 49 of Chopin as a masterpiece ...
but not this chicken ...


Nice to know that YOU really know better.......... grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2009459 - 01/05/13 01:24 PM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: bennevis]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5513
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: bennevis
For a wrong-note passage

I immediately think of the jumping octaves in Scherzo No. 3.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#2009467 - 01/05/13 01:40 PM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: AZNpiano]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: bennevis
For a wrong-note passage

I immediately think of the jumping octaves in Scherzo No. 3.

Hard for me to see the octaves in the Scherzo being nearly as risky or challenging as those in the Fantaisie -- in any event, they aren't for me, and I don't hear people messing them up or making musical sacrifices on them nearly as much as in the Fantaisie. I know that there's a lot more of them in the Scherzo, but I don't see them being nearly as hard.

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#2009628 - 01/05/13 06:47 PM Re: Fantasie in F minor, op. 49 [Re: JoelW]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2652
Loc: Netherlands
not harder than the jumping octaves in the scherzo of op.35 for me, or some awkward moves in op.25/10
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Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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