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Originally Posted by fnork
In addition to that, let's not forget that Chopin was greatly influenced by Bach's WTK in his writing - he knew WTK intimately and practiced these pieces frequently. Often prior to a performance (where he played his own works, of course), he would shut himself in and practice Bach several hours.

Did Bach intend WTK to be performed in its entirety...?


Bach probably never intended his WTC to be performed in public - they were written 'for the profit and use of musical youth desirous of learning'.

Whatever that means....

BTW, I didn't say that Chopin wrote all his Preludes in Majorca wink .


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Originally Posted by bennevis
I think you're making many assumptions, based on your own perceptions rather than what reality was. For instance, Chopin's Funeral March Sonata was described by Schumann (who, don't forget, introduced Chopin to his learned chums with 'Hats off, gentlemen! A genius!') as 'four of Chopin's wildest children strung together' - and indeed, the March was composed first, with the other movements composed almost as an afterthought to make it into a Sonata. No wonder the March is frequently played by itself. The fact that the four movements sound logical as a Sonata to us is because we're used to hearing it that way, but that wasn't what happened in Chopin's time. But Chopin did compose the Preludes Op.28 as a group, partly in Majorca - whether or not he ever played them all as a set is irrelevant:
I have never heard or read in a listing of concert programs of the Funeral March being played separately in at least the last 50 years. Perhaps you're referring to the fact it's played separately at funerals. In the 19th century perhaps it was played separately because many sonatas or other multi-movement works were played only in parts then.

Schumann's opinion about the movements of Op.35 not working well together is just one person's opinion. Many think otherwise among the greatest pianists and important critics, and this work has been performed as a whole for a long time and by many of the greatest pianists. The fact that the Funeral March was composed before the rest of the Sonata or that the Preludes were composed within a smaller time frame is IMO not really relevant in terms of whether or not the movements work together.

David Dubal is considered to be one of the most expert pianophiles and he has stated that no one knows whether Chopin intended the Preludes to be played as a set.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I have never heard or read in a listing of concert programs of the Funeral March being played separately in at least the last 50 years. Perhaps you're referring to the fact it's played separately at funerals. In the 19th century perhaps it was played separately because many sonatas or other multi-movement works were played only in parts then.

Schumann's opinion about the movements of Op.35 not working well together is just one person's opinion. Many think otherwise among the greatest pianists and important critics, and this work has been performed as a whole for a long time and by many of the greatest pianists. The fact that the Funeral March was composed before the rest of the Sonata or that the Preludes were composed within a smaller time frame is IMO not really relevant in terms of whether or not the movements work together.

David Dubal is considered to be one of the most expert pianophiles and he has stated that no one knows whether Chopin intended the Preludes to be played as a set.
.

I've heard the Funeral March played at least three times as encores over the years, in all-Chopin recitals. The last time was by Louis Lortie, who decided to play also the finale (attacca). I don't think any pianist would fish out any other Chopin Sonata movement to play as stand-alone pieces, even as encores. I've certainly never heard any pianist play a Chopin Prelude as an encore (apart from Op.45), even though one or two of them might serve well.

As for what Chopin actually thought when he composed the work - who knows? Composers often do things with their music that they probably wouldn't want others to do - like what Rachmaninoff did when performing his Corelli variations, skipping the next one whenever the coughing increased grin (apparently, in one particularly noisy concert, the audience only got to hear half the total number of variations) . We only have the evidence of the music to go on, and some of the Preludes do seem to lead logically on to the next . And most Chopin scholars agree that Op.28 work logically as a complete set, for instance Jeffrey Kresky in A Reader's Guide to the Chopin Preludes.


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On the cello, I once played the preludes of Bach's first three solo cello suites as a group -- it was on a program with other chamber music. I have never heard of that being done by anyone else, but IMO it worked pretty well!

I would think whether you play something like Chopin's preludes as group or selections from them would depend on what else was on your program, what you were trying to accomplish or express with the performance, and so on. I for one am tired of concert programs that include an entire set, or only music by one composer. You might as well listen to a recording. It's more interesting to hear juxtapositions of pieces not usually played side by side.


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Originally Posted by fnork
....The only thing I'm personally against is a sort of uniform view of how things should be played....

Sorry to quote just one sentence from your terrific post. grin
Love the whole post, wanted to highlight that part.

And regarding these Preludes I think we can say that the good news for Joel is that this in fact is the most commonly-held view (I mean not just here, but in general): There isn't just one way to do it. And I don't remember if this has been mentioned (sorry! but I think not, and I think that interestingly nothing at all has been said about his specific selections) ....the idea of beginning with the 'hardest' of the ones that he's playing is striking and interesting, and I think his ordering can be very effective.

BTW I think Op. 28 does work great as a full set. To me it's tedious or questionable only when not done well. Although I realize that what Plover said is true:

Quote
It's hard or maybe impossible to know whether people thinking the Preludes work well as a set is because they really do or because they are just used to hearing them this way.



P.S. Years ago (before our time) Horowitz played all 4 Ballades at a recital -- but backwards. (OK, I don't mean..... ha you know what I mean.) smile
I was struck when I saw that, but thinking about it, it made immediate sense to me. Doing them in the 'regular' order would make sense too, but this seemed more compelling, and more interesting.

Last edited by Mark_C; 01/06/13 03:13 PM. Reason: took out some stupid stuff
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by fnork
....The only thing I'm personally against is a sort of uniform view of how things should be played....

Sorry to quote just one sentence from your terrific post. grin
Love the whole post, wanted to highlight that part.

And remember y'all, we're answering the OP -- or at least we want to partly answer the OP, right? ha
He wondered if it's OK to do excerpts, and if he can do them in whatever order he might choose.

And the answer is yes, isn't it? Let's be clear about that. About these Preludes, the good news for him is that while maybe they are usually played as a full set by professionals, I think the most common view on the OP question is in fact pretty much what fnork said here: There isn't just one way to do it.

BTW I think Op. 28 does work great as a full set. To me it's tedious or questionable only when not done well.


In case anyone gets the wrong impression from all that I've said earlier (wouldn't be the first time wink ), I'd reiterate what I said in my first reply to the OP here - that amateurs often play selections from the set, and would add that there's nothing wrong with that. I don't often attend student recitals, but do know that many students choose programs quite differently from professional pianists: they might play just one Schubert Klavierstücke from D946 and pair it with an Impromptu from D899 for instance, whereas professionals will almost invariably play the whole set in concert, even though there's really no reason to. (Saying that however, I've not heard any student play his own selection from Chopin's Op.28 either). Similarly, no professional will play just a few pieces from Schumann's Kinderszenen, or Kreisleriana, or Carnaval, or even from Fantasiestücke Op.12 (except Richter, again....), except as an encore.

Interestingly, I've never heard Krystian Zimerman play the Chopin Op.28 in concert, though I have a CD from the Chopin Competition where he played a few selected Preludes. Maybe he only likes a few of the Preludes but didn't feel able to just play those he liked in concert? Does anyone know anything different?


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Would you not go to a concert because the pianist played just a few of the Preludes, rather than all of them?

Frankly, what the pianist plays rarely has anything to do with whether I go to a concert or not.


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Originally Posted by bennevis
....Similarly, no professional will play just a few pieces from Schumann's Kinderszenen, or Kreisleriana, or Carnaval....

How 'similar' would you really say those are to the Preludes?
I would say not very. I wouldn't consider doing excerpts from those, but I'd most definitely consider it fair game for the Chopin.

Quote
....or even from Op.12

As you sort of imply, that's not really with the above group that you mentioned either -- a little bit sort of, but not really. And I have heard just selections performed from that in a professional recital. And we could argue that Kinderszenen doesn't really belong in the group either.

Distinctions on something like this make a difference. When we start lumping things together we can get into trouble.

Originally Posted by BDB
Frankly, what the pianist plays rarely has anything to do with whether I go to a concert or not.

I agree, and I'd be surprised if anyone would boycott a recital because someone was doing just excerpts from Op. 28. ha

But I do sometimes go to piano recitals for a particular piece.


P.S. The main "excerpting" that I hate, probably the only, is when people at amateur competitions play a single movement of a late Beethoven sonata.

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Pianists break up sets all of the time. You hear selections of Miroirs, Liszt's Annees, Scriabin prelude and etude groups, transcendental etudes, etc. and it's not unusual...

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Originally Posted by bennevis

I've heard the Funeral March played at least three times as encores over the years, in all-Chopin recitals. The last time was by Louis Lortie, who decided to play also the finale (attacca). I don't think any pianist would fish out any other Chopin Sonata movement to play as stand-alone pieces, even as encores. I've certainly never heard any pianist play a Chopin Prelude as an encore (apart from Op.45), even though one or two of them might serve well.

As for what Chopin actually thought when he composed the work - who knows? Composers often do things with their music that they probably wouldn't want others to do - like what Rachmaninoff did when performing his Corelli variations, skipping the next one whenever the coughing increased grin (apparently, in one particularly noisy concert, the audience only got to hear half the total number of variations) . We only have the evidence of the music to go on, and some of the Preludes do seem to lead logically on to the next . And most Chopin scholars agree that Op.28 work logically as a complete set, for instance Jeffrey Kresky in A Reader's Guide to the Chopin Preludes.
My point and statement was that the Funeral March is virtually never played as part of the regular (non-encore) part of a recital. I think it would work fine as an encore. As far as pianists not playing any other Chopin sonata movement separately that is not the case. As an encore Katsaris has played the last movement of Op. 58.

I never said that Preludes don't work logically as a complete set...in fact, I said the opposite somewhere previously in this thread. My statement was that apparently no one knows what Chopin's intentions were in this regard.

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Originally Posted by bennevis

I don't often attend student recitals, but do know that many students choose programs quite differently from professional pianists: they might play just one Schubert Klavierstucke from D946 and pair it with an Impromptu from D899 for instance, whereas professionals will almost invariably play the whole set in concert, even though there's really no reason to. (Saying that however, I've not heard any student play his own selection from Chopin's Op.28 either). Similarly, no professional will play just a few pieces from Schumann's Kinderszenen, or Kreisleriana, or Carnaval, or even from Op.12 (except Richter, again....), except as an encore,
I think what you mean is "there's no reason they have to". There's clearly a reason why they play them together as they are the same opus. It's like playing Chopin Mazurkas...some pianists will group a random selection, but others will play an entire opus and there's a clear reason when they choose to do that.

Kinderscenen is virtually always performed as a whole(except in encore situation)as are Kreisleriana and Carnaval. Op. 12 probably has more instances of being played only in part than the other three.

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Originally Posted by Mark_C
And regarding these Preludes I think we can say that the good news for Joel is that this in fact is the most commonly-held view (I mean not just here, but in general): There isn't just one way to do it.
Since Joel is an amateur pianist in high school most of the discussion in the thread is irrelevant for him. I think the most commonly held view among professionals today(based on what they do)is that the Preludes should be played as a group. It's quite rare for them to play selections although this occurs sometimes in all Chopin recitals.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Mark_C
And regarding these Preludes I think we can say that the good news for Joel is that this in fact is the most commonly-held view (I mean not just here, but in general): There isn't just one way to do it.
Since Joel is an amateur pianist in high school most of the discussion in the thread is irrelevant for him. I think the most commonly held view among professionals today(based on what they do)is that the Preludes should be played as a group. It's quite rare for them to play selections although this occurs sometimes in all Chopin recitals.


You know, PLOV... even the Chopin competition regularly includes a selection of preludes from op. 28 in the competition repertoire.

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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
as a cycle they work remarkably well, for more than a century, why change a winning team?

I will accept that Chopin may not have intended his Preludes to be played as a whole, but I agree that 'they work remarkably well' as a cycle. I have heard them done so in recital at least four times, and it was a very powerful experience. I was never bored.

OTH, I have heard a selection of the Preludes played (though mostly by students I might add), but I didn't have a problem with that either.


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Originally Posted by Mark_C
P.S. The main "excerpting" that I hate, probably the only, is when people at amateur competitions play a single movement of a late Beethoven sonata.

I must admit to having committed such a sin at a "professional" competition wink I did the outer movements of Hammerklavier, and whatever objections could be made for doing such a thing, it was partially a statement on my part. What the heck are you supposed to do when the time limit is 30 minutes and you're supposed to include a baroque piece, something classical, and two etudes? There was a judge who criticized me for doing this, while there apparently was no problem for him to vote in favor for pianists (who were among the finalists) who performed either the final two movements of appasionata or the first one.

In any case, playing late beethoven in any competition is certainly risky business laugh Hammy fares a bit better than the even later ones because of its reputation (Antti Siirala, who these days teaches at my academy, was only around 18 or so when he won the Beethoven competition playing this piece - it's quite a feat for anyone but especially for someone his age. Maria Mazo seems to have been seen in a more favorable light at the Cliburn competition due to the fact that she performed this in the semifinals, although I'd easily find numerous things to criticize in her playing), but it only works if you play it in a bigger competition where you have room for such a huge piece.

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Originally Posted by fnork
Originally Posted by Mark_C
P.S. The main "excerpting" that I hate, probably the only, is when people at amateur competitions play a single movement of a late Beethoven sonata.

I must admit to having committed such a sin at a "professional" competition wink I did the outer movements of Hammerklavier, and whatever objections could be made for doing such a thing, it was partially a statement on my part. What the heck are you supposed to do when the time limit is 30 minutes and you're supposed to include a baroque piece, something classical, and two etudes? There was a judge who criticized me for doing this, while there apparently was no problem for him to vote in favor for pianists (who were among the finalists) who performed either the final two movements of appasionata or the first one.

In any case, playing late beethoven in any competition is certainly risky business laugh Hammy fares a bit better than the even later ones because of its reputation (Antti Siirala, who these days teaches at my academy, was only around 18 or so when he won the Beethoven competition playing this piece - it's quite a feat for anyone but especially for someone his age. Maria Mazo seems to have been seen in a more favorable light at the Cliburn competition due to the fact that she performed this in the semifinals, although I'd easily find numerous things to criticize in her playing), but it only works if you play it in a bigger competition where you have room for such a huge piece.


Is Siirala still giving concerts? He seemed to have disappeared off the radar soon after winning the Leeds, though he did make a nice recording of Brahms's Op.5 Sonata. It seems that Olli Mustonen gets all the international glory among pianists from Finland, in spite (or maybe because) of his 'wood-pecking' pianism...

It's quite common for pianists to play just the first movement of a Sonata, or the last two in the earlier rounds in international piano competitions, but playing just both fast outer movements is probably not the done thing. I've not heard that done in the Leeds, for instance.


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Yes, he maintains a rather busy concert schedule as far as I know, just as some other finnish pianists I know, like Paavali Jumppanen. And then in addition, there's a rather sizeable group of freelancers that play here and there (in Finland mainly) and keep themselves busy, but in spite of their qualities as pianists, you won't hear much about them outside of Finland.

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Originally Posted by fnork
Originally Posted by Mark_C
P.S. The main "excerpting" that I hate, probably the only, is when people at amateur competitions play a single movement of a late Beethoven sonata.

I must admit to having committed such a sin at a "professional" competition wink I did the outer movements of Hammerklavier....

Oh -- I wasn't talking about the Hammerklavier! grin
In fact, I wasn't even thinking about it. (If I had been, I would have said "except maybe for the Hammerklavier.")

Why I didn't: People in amateur competitions don't play the Hammerklavier.


(Also maybe another reason but that's the main one.) smile


Another possible exception: I wouldn't go nuts over someone playing just the 1st mvt of Op. 101. I wouldn't do it, but I don't think it's terrible.

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I think that if you really had time constraints, the last movement of op.109 or 110 sort of work alone in the same way that the Chaconne can sort of stand alone from the D minor partita.


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Originally Posted by argerichfan
I will accept that Chopin may not have intended his Preludes to be played as a whole, but I agree that 'they work remarkably well' as a cycle.

I agree. And, while we don't know Chopin's intentions, it seems to me that of his Opus 28, numbers 8, 12, 16 & 24 all make very dramatic and effective final pieces when playing them in groups. If one were programming an old-fashioned music evening, one might choose to play 1-8, then accompany a singer for a couple of songs, then play 9-16, then do another couple of songs, then play 17-24, with a popular waltz or mazurka and an improvisation on a popular melody to finish. In a formal, modern-style concert, one could finish the first half with 1-12, then start the second half with 13-24.

Put simply, there are other ways of playing the whole of Opus 28 to an audience than presenting all 24 pieces in a row. Having said that, I think some of the preludes sound pretty good on their own or in pairs. And some could work well as preludes to other works, by Chopin or other composers.

(I have only seen them played once, as a complete set by Pollini in London in 2011, and it was fun seeing and hearing a flutter of recognition amongst some audience members when number 15 began, as if to say, "Ohhhhh, I never knew that this lovely piece was part of a whole set!")


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