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Hi there, reading the pianoworld forums for the past 6 months has been very illuminating. Now I need your help, please.
I started studying classical piano at age 8, and in my 20s bought a new 5'9" Kawai grand, which I loved and played for 15 yrs before having to sell it. Then someone gave me a 1913 McPhail upright, which grew on me despite its idiosyncrasies. Now, older and with more time, I yearn for another grand, and my husband agrees I need to move on from the McPhail. Our budget is $10,000-$15,000 (tho $15K would be difficult).
Initially hoping for a lightly used Kawai grand, I'm surprised to find that I'm no longer drawn to them--even the new ones--they sound beautiful on other pianists' videos, but I haven't been feeling a connection or enjoyed playing them, nor several others I've been trying (e.g., Petrof, Baldwin, Young Chang, most Yamahas).
Today I played a 1928 Mason + Hamlin 7' grand for 2 hours and LOVED it! It has a warm, elegant, sweet yet full-bodied tone, and action on the light side but responsive to me, I felt. Very comfortable, strong connection. The bass strings look quite new; the hammers and dampers were definitely replaced and are not very worn; the pins and block look older but not in trouble (at least to the eye); the key tops have been replaced and are in perfect condition. The case is an absolutely gorgeous mahogany, and rock solid of course ...
except for this: the soundboard has several cracks in it. Why this doesn't show up in the sound when the piano is played I don't know, but it doesn't seem to be affecting it at all. So the big question is: Am I insane to consider a piano with a cracked soundboard??? The dealer has $21,000 on it but, when my husband said our budget is $10,000, he zoomed down to $13,000. There is likely still room for negotiation.
Of course we'd hire a technician to check it out thoroughly, but first it would be very helpful to hear from you folks whether we should even do that or just forget this piano. So far it's hard for me to forget. It's got soul!
Thank you kindly for any opinions, advice, thoughts.
Scout
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It sure does make one wonder what is wrong with a piano when the first thing a seller does is offer to cut the price some 30 to 40%.
Hire an independent technician who has experience with rebuilt pianos to check it over, maybe even tune it, to give you a more complete read on condition.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
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Soundboard cracks rarely affect the sound of a piano.
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I've played pianos with cracked soundboards that were excellent instruments. Surprised by this I looked into it some. The prevailing opinion seems to be that small cracks in the soundboard do not, by themselves, neccessarily damage the tone or sustain. I am not a technician, however, and don't have the expertise to fully explore that question.
So to the bottom line questions: are you crazy for considering the piano?
No, I don't think so. You played it for two hours, and you enjoy the instrument. BBs are superb pianos. Your technician's evaluation becomes extremely important however, since you already know the piano does have issues.
One more thing, nonmusical, to keep in mind: a cracked soundboard lowers (in my opinion) the value of the piano. $12,000 (or whatever you can negotiate down to) is cheap for a BB. But it will be also be worth less if you decide to sell it down the road. It will also likely be harder to sell.
Pianist and Piano Teacher
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Thank you for your replies, Ed, BDB, and musicpassion. I'm wishing that the piano weren't too far away to send my trusted tech, but it is, so a very trustworthy but unknown-to-us technician would have to be found (adding another unknown to the situation, I guess).
If the piano/soundboard has 20 or 30 more good years left in it, I'm not too concerned with the resale value. There is no one to inherit the piano from us, and in 30 years I'll be 93 (but more likely gone!). I do appreciate your sanity measure, musicpassion. From the research, I'm wondering about the anxiety of hoping for 20 or 30 years, week after week, that "my" piano will last. I'm starting to have third thoughts because of that.
The only piano other than this M+H that I've greatly enjoyed playing so far is a 1982 Yamaha C7 (one owner, who has died). This one my own tech could examine. The price negotiation could be a challenge, though this dealer seems eager to move it to make room for newer pianos. There isn't a large market here, especially for such a big piano, and he is the only piano dealer in the whole state.
But I continue to ponder the M+H ...
1989 Baldwin L
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MARK, what happened to your post? I saw it just *after* my reply a few minutes ago, and now can't reply to it directly. I said this:
"Thank you, Mark, that is helpful. I don't know about the shanks and flanges. Where are you in NH? That's where the M+H is! (In Salem NH; I'm in Maine.) If you'd rather send me a pm, I'll learn how to retrieve it."
Last edited by scout; 01/05/13 10:55 AM.
1989 Baldwin L
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You mention that the hammers were replaced and that the action is very light. Were the shanks & flanges replaced along with the hammers? I often find that the old M&H hammer shank centers to be very loose, and this can lead to a lighter action. IMO, there's a special place in heck for techs who replace hammers on an 85 year old piano without (at the very least) also replacing the shanks & flanges. If this is indeed the case then you should take this into account both as an indicator of the overall quality of the work that was done and when making an offer to the dealer. These can be fantastic pianos, but it sounds like this one may be just a good rebuildable core being offered at substantially more than its actual value.
Mark Dierauf, RPT NH Pianos Piano technician & rebuilder since 1978 www.nhpianos.com
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You've been given very sound advice (pun intended). Cracks rarely affect tone. They DO however significantly affect selling price as many are under the mis-conception that a cracked soundboard is fatal. In this case the cracks are likely the reason the price is so low.
You love the piano. Have a tech check it out and if it passes...go for it.
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www.jasonsmc@msn.com
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Retired owned of Jasons Music Center
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.
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Thanks, Steve. Hope rises again! Yes, the dealer pointed out the cracks to us immediately and was clearly concerned that they make a piano hard to sell. We assumed he would lower the price a lot because of that, just as you say, and he did. Depending on a technician's evaluation, no doubt he would go lower. His store isn't so big that he can just put this in a corner and let time pass.
Mark, you're back, and with a fuller post. Great, and thank you. Please see above, where I tell you the piano is in NH, as are you, and I'm wondering if you're near Salem.
1989 Baldwin L
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We assumed he would lower the price a lot because of that, just as you say, and he did. Depending on a technician's evaluation, no doubt he would go lower. His store isn't so big that he can just put this in a corner and let time pass. I wouldn't make either of these assumptions. The price you have negotiated is under market.
Piano Industry Consultant
Co-author (with Larry Fine) of Practical Piano Valuation
www.jasonsmc@msn.com
Contributing Editor & Consultant - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer
Retired owned of Jasons Music Center
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.
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Oh ok, thanks, I didn't realize that--thought it would ultimately depend on technician's evaluation.
1989 Baldwin L
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You could ask the tech you know and trust in your area for one or two recommendations for a tech who lives closer to the piano. Assuming the tech is good, he could evaluate the work that has been done, the relevance, if any, of the soundboard cracks, and any other issues. Since you love the piano, if there are no serious problems or issues that need more work done to make the piano play/sound well and the case has been refinished it sounds like a good prospect. Just doing a good refinishing job on a piano that size could cost 5K-10K or more.
Any money you might lose(because of the soundboard cracks)if you want to sell it in the future would also be lowering your cost when you buy it now unless the soundboard cracks cause a more serious problem down the road. So the cracks could easily be a wash. A good tech can help you know how serious a problem (or not) the cracks are now or may be in the future.
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That's a good perspective, pianoloverus, I hadn't quite thought of it that way.
After reading your post I searched for and found several piano restoration companies that have surprising numbers of very old M+Hs that were restored and are for sale in the $20K-$40k range. If this sound board eventually failed sooner than anyone expected, there might be a market in those companies for buying this piano from me for further restoration? Just a thought. But yes, hopefully an excellent tech can pretty much remove that situation as a possibility by providing the crucial information. I'll ask my tech for recommendations, good idea.
1989 Baldwin L
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If this sound board eventually failed sooner than anyone expected, there might be a market in those companies for buying this piano from me for further restoration? Yes there is value in a Mason Hamlin BB even as just a rebuildable core. In my opinion there isn't for a Yamaha C7, by the way. (This is not a statement against C7s. They are fine pianos, but for a number of reasons people don't usually rebuild them).
Pianist and Piano Teacher
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If the piano/soundboard has 20 or 30 more good years left in it, I'm not too concerned with the resale value. There is no one to inherit the piano from us, and in 30 years I'll be 93 (but more likely gone!). I do appreciate your sanity measure, musicpassion. From the research, I'm wondering about the anxiety of hoping for 20 or 30 years, week after week, that "my" piano will last. I'm starting to have third thoughts because of that.
The technician should be able to answer the potential longevity question. I don't think you'd have to worry about it. The BB isn't an unknown, mystery instrument. A good technician would have evaluated the exact model many times before and should be very familiar with Mason and Hamlins. If he's not, get another tech. Another thing to consider: in my experience pianos don't fail suddenly. It's a gradual process. Yes, strings can break, etc. but those are an easily repairable thing. I mean the guts of the piano - in my experience it's not like you would wake up one morning and exclaim, "Ack! my piano has no sustain. It died overnight!"
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Yes there is value in a Mason Hamlin BB even as just a rebuildable core.
In my opinion there isn't for a Yamaha C7, by the way. (This is not a statement against C7s. They are fine pianos, but for a number of reasons people don't usually rebuild them).
Not that it's a big deal, but where do you get this notion that people don't rebuild Yamaha C7s? I'd have to see hard, verifiable statistical data on this idea before I believe it. Of course, I'm certainly no expert on pianos.  Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
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Yes there is value in a Mason Hamlin BB even as just a rebuildable core.
In my opinion there isn't for a Yamaha C7, by the way. (This is not a statement against C7s. They are fine pianos, but for a number of reasons people don't usually rebuild them).
Not that it's a big deal, but where do you get this notion that people don't rebuild Yamaha C7s? I'd have to see hard, verifiable statistical data on this idea before I believe it. Of course, I'm certainly no expert on pianos. Rick The overwhelming percent of rebuilt pianos are Steinways and Masons. (A much smaller number of rebuilds are brands like Baldwin, Knabe, and a few others). I think part of the reason is that a rebuilder's costs are fairly fixed and only those pianos will sell for a high enough price for the rebuilder to get a reasonable profit(or the rebuilder just wants to get the most profit for his labor and materials). Also, if one can buy a new piano for the same or sightly more than a rebuilt one, very few people will want the rebuilt piano.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/05/13 08:17 PM.
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Yes there is value in a Mason Hamlin BB even as just a rebuildable core.
In my opinion there isn't for a Yamaha C7, by the way. (This is not a statement against C7s. They are fine pianos, but for a number of reasons people don't usually rebuild them).
Not that it's a big deal, but where do you get this notion that people don't rebuild Yamaha C7s? I'd have to see hard, verifiable statistical data on this idea before I believe it. Of course, I'm certainly no expert on pianos. Rick Rest assured, Rick, C7s are indeed rebuilt. It's doubtful that many are getting new soundboards yet, but they are certainly getting new actions, pin blocks, and strings! In fact, I have a client with an older C7 that will be restrung (and possibly a few other things) in the near future!
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Hi there, reading the pianoworld forums for the past 6 months has been very illuminating. Now I need your help, please.
I started studying classical piano at age 8, and in my 20s bought a new 5'9" Kawai grand, which I loved and played for 15 yrs before having to sell it. Then someone gave me a 1913 McPhail upright, which grew on me despite its idiosyncrasies. Now, older and with more time, I yearn for another grand, and my husband agrees I need to move on from the McPhail. Our budget is $10,000-$15,000 (tho $15K would be difficult).
Initially hoping for a lightly used Kawai grand, I'm surprised to find that I'm no longer drawn to them--even the new ones--they sound beautiful on other pianists' videos, but I haven't been feeling a connection or enjoyed playing them, nor several others I've been trying (e.g., Petrof, Baldwin, Young Chang, most Yamahas).
Today I played a 1928 Mason + Hamlin 7' grand for 2 hours and LOVED it! It has a warm, elegant, sweet yet full-bodied tone, and action on the light side but responsive to me, I felt. Very comfortable, strong connection. The bass strings look quite new; the hammers and dampers were definitely replaced and are not very worn; the pins and block look older but not in trouble (at least to the eye); the key tops have been replaced and are in perfect condition. The case is an absolutely gorgeous mahogany, and rock solid of course ...
except for this: the soundboard has several cracks in it. Why this doesn't show up in the sound when the piano is played I don't know, but it doesn't seem to be affecting it at all. So the big question is: Am I insane to consider a piano with a cracked soundboard??? The dealer has $21,000 on it but, when my husband said our budget is $10,000, he zoomed down to $13,000. There is likely still room for negotiation.
Of course we'd hire a technician to check it out thoroughly, but first it would be very helpful to hear from you folks whether we should even do that or just forget this piano. So far it's hard for me to forget. It's got soul!
Thank you kindly for any opinions, advice, thoughts.
Scout This is not something I would recommend for purchase. The only time I recommend old pianos is if they've been completely rebuilt by someone I trust. There are plenty of other (less old) options, with better value, than this.
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Yes there is value in a Mason Hamlin BB even as just a rebuildable core.
In my opinion there isn't for a Yamaha C7, by the way. (This is not a statement against C7s. They are fine pianos, but for a number of reasons people don't usually rebuild them).
Not that it's a big deal, but where do you get this notion that people don't rebuild Yamaha C7s? I'd have to see hard, verifiable statistical data on this idea before I believe it. Of course, I'm certainly no expert on pianos. Rick I first got the notion from a rebuilder who said he didn't rebuild Yamahas on spec. He would do it, I think, if a client hired him on a specific piano. He explained that for him to completely rebuild a Yamaha, the costs would be roughly equal or more than the cost of a new Yamaha. If you look at some of the large, online rebuilders such as www.lindeblad.com under the "before and after" examples they list by name, "Steinway, Mason and Hamlin, Knabe and Chickering", and then they list "misc" and "upright". I don't know much about lindeblad, but they advertise everywhere so I've checked out their website.
Pianist and Piano Teacher
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