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#2009505 - 01/05/13 03:04 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: bennevis]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Er....a digital never goes out of tune. Unless you deliberately detune it, which you can do with individual (virtual) strings on the V-Piano. And of course, many DPs also allow you to access unequal temperaments like Kirnberger, meantone, Werckmeister etc which can sound out of tune to modern ears.

I do agree with you about the 'static' nature of the sampling sound production in most DPs, which is probably the reason why many people get bored with their new DP within just a few months, and keep looking to 'upgrade', or buy new sound samples to upload on software to change the sound - there're plenty of threads in the Digital Piano forum about this.


Yeah, the different temperaments are very interesting, and I've played with them a bit. It lets you appreciate how certain music would sound in their 'native' temperament. Still, to me, it's interesting but not so critical that would make me want to abandon an acoustic piano for a digital one.

I didn't realized it is the static nature of the DP that causes the upgrade obssession. I do notice DP-only owners do seem to upgrade often. I always thought they were just chasing technology, but never thought perhaps they're just bored of the sound. Interesting.

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#2009520 - 01/05/13 03:39 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: 4evrBeginR]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5435
Originally Posted By: 4evrBeginR


Yeah, the different temperaments are very interesting, and I've played with them a bit. It lets you appreciate how certain music would sound in their 'native' temperament. Still, to me, it's interesting but not so critical that would make me want to abandon an acoustic piano for a digital one.

I didn't realized it is the static nature of the DP that causes the upgrade obssession. I do notice DP-only owners do seem to upgrade often. I always thought they were just chasing technology, but never thought perhaps they're just bored of the sound. Interesting.


It's probably also the fact that techies (which many DP owners seem to be) always want the latest, as you say. When I started joining in the DP forum, I was frankly amazed that so many DP owners already have several DPs and yet keep looking to upgrade. I simply regard (and use) my V-Piano as I would a normal acoustic, and have never become remotely bored with it (even if it isn't almost infinitely customizable - I've got several different customized piano sounds on it but only ever use a couple regularly): I'm in control of the sound, not the machine; and if I don't like what I hear, it's because I need to practise more......
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2009550 - 01/05/13 04:46 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Inca]
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
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Loc: Oakland
I am not convinced that digital pianos cannot go out of tune. I am not convinced that some of them are ever in tune, for that matter.
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Semipro Tech

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#2009563 - 01/05/13 05:11 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: BDB]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5435
Originally Posted By: BDB
I am not convinced that digital pianos cannot go out of tune. I am not convinced that some of them are ever in tune, for that matter.


No, you're right; no DP is ever perfectly in tune because so-called 'equal temperament' means that no two notes are perfectly in tune with each other, other than octaves - possibly. And that's apart from the fact that the original grand pianos that sampled DPs get their sound from might not have been properly tuned anyway.... wink
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2009570 - 01/05/13 05:19 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: bennevis]
MacDan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 91
Loc: Tampa, FL
Maybe that explains why, after not having played my DP for several weeks, when I went to do so yesterday it just didn't sound "right".

My acoustic piano is having the key bushings replaced and the action regulated, so I am forced to play my DP for practice until my tech returns with my grand action on Tuesday afternoon (I can't wait!!)

This was the longest I've gone without playing my DP, and I am amazed at how different it sounds after playing strictly on an acoustic for a month or so.

Dan

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#2009574 - 01/05/13 05:24 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: MacDan]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: MacDan
Maybe that explains why, after not having played my DP for several weeks, when I went to do so yesterday it just didn't sound "right".

My acoustic piano is having the key bushings replaced and the action regulated, so I am forced to play my DP for practice until my tech returns with my grand action on Tuesday afternoon (I can't wait!!)

This was the longest I've gone without playing my DP, and I am amazed at how different it sounds after playing strictly on an acoustic for a month or so.

Dan


My technician tunes my piano with the high notes higher and the low notes lower than what equal temperment dictates. It sounds much more "in tune" this way for some reason.

Also, I have heard older digital pianos that do go out of tune (and it's not a setting, but a malfunction somewhere).
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#2009578 - 01/05/13 05:34 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Morodiene]
bennevis Online   content
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5435
Originally Posted By: Morodiene


My technician tunes my piano with the high notes higher and the low notes lower than what equal temperment dictates. It sounds much more "in tune" this way for some reason.



Yes, my V-Piano has what's called 'stretch tuning' which can be selected by the user, which does what your tuner did to your piano. Apparently the ear perceives high notes as sounding a little flat and low notes as too sharp, which stretch tuning 'corrects'.

I always did think that coloratura sopranos get flatter as they sing higher.... wink grin
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2009579 - 01/05/13 05:38 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: bennevis]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
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Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: bennevis


I always did think that coloratura sopranos get flatter as they sing higher.... wink grin


That is usually because conductors and orchestras today tune much higher than composers of the time were working with. Verdi, for example, insisted all his operas be at A=432. This makes a HUGE difference when singing. smile
_________________________
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2009580 - 01/05/13 05:39 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: MacDan]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: MacDan
This was the longest I've gone without playing my DP, and I am amazed at how different it sounds after playing strictly on an acoustic for a month or so.


He's seen the light! -- He's seen the light.
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2009581 - 01/05/13 05:40 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Morodiene]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5435
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: bennevis


I always did think that coloratura sopranos get flatter as they sing higher.... wink grin


That is usually because conductors and orchestras today tune much higher than composers of the time were working with. Verdi, for example, insisted all his operas be at A=432. This makes a HUGE difference when singing. smile


That's cheating! Pavarotti wouldn't want to be thought of as 'King of the high Bs'..... grin
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2009589 - 01/05/13 05:57 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: bennevis]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: bennevis


I always did think that coloratura sopranos get flatter as they sing higher.... wink grin


That is usually because conductors and orchestras today tune much higher than composers of the time were working with. Verdi, for example, insisted all his operas be at A=432. This makes a HUGE difference when singing. smile


That's cheating! Pavarotti wouldn't want to be thought of as 'King of the high Bs'..... grin


It's still a C, A=432 is only about 1/3 step :P . I heard he missed all of the high Cs in a performance of "a mes amis", so one wonders how it would have been for him a bit lower smile
_________________________
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MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2009595 - 01/05/13 06:07 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
MacDan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 91
Loc: Tampa, FL
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: MacDan
This was the longest I've gone without playing my DP, and I am amazed at how different it sounds after playing strictly on an acoustic for a month or so.


He's seen the light! -- He's seen the light.


I saw it before I went back to my DP, believe me. I was playing my acoustic right after I got it, before my tech could tune it, the difference was so much better....

Dan

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#2009638 - 01/05/13 07:01 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Morodiene]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5435
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: bennevis


I always did think that coloratura sopranos get flatter as they sing higher.... wink grin


That is usually because conductors and orchestras today tune much higher than composers of the time were working with. Verdi, for example, insisted all his operas be at A=432. This makes a HUGE difference when singing. smile


That's cheating! Pavarotti wouldn't want to be thought of as 'King of the high Bs'..... grin


It's still a C, A=432 is only about 1/3 step :P . I heard he missed all of the high Cs in a performance of "a mes amis", so one wonders how it would have been for him a bit lower smile


Didn't he transpose down some arias as he got older and couldn't reach all those high notes? Including even his 'signature aria' Nessun dorma?
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2009665 - 01/05/13 07:35 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: bennevis]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: bennevis


I always did think that coloratura sopranos get flatter as they sing higher.... wink grin


That is usually because conductors and orchestras today tune much higher than composers of the time were working with. Verdi, for example, insisted all his operas be at A=432. This makes a HUGE difference when singing. smile


That's cheating! Pavarotti wouldn't want to be thought of as 'King of the high Bs'..... grin


It's still a C, A=432 is only about 1/3 step :P . I heard he missed all of the high Cs in a performance of "a mes amis", so one wonders how it would have been for him a bit lower smile


Didn't he transpose down some arias as he got older and couldn't reach all those high notes? Including even his 'signature aria' Nessun dorma?


Ya, in the end, I think he just didn't care and would sing pretty much anything.
_________________________
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MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2009708 - 01/05/13 08:49 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: BDB]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: BDB
I am not convinced that digital pianos cannot go out of tune. I am not convinced that some of them are ever in tune, for that matter.


You are not the first tech that brought this up. I had two separate techs tell me that my DP (an older Clavinova) is out tune. When I brought this up on the DP Forum some years ago, the participants came down on me really hard, saying, it's impossible. I was and still am not knowledgeable enough with piano tuning to argue with the DP Forum folks one way or another, so I just let it drop.

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#2009714 - 01/05/13 08:57 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Morodiene]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
I recently heard on Freakonomics Radio (http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/11/10/boo-who-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/) that in his later years, his voice was gone, and his performance was really poor, yet no one ever gave any boos, so he kept going even though he was yelling more than singing.

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#2009752 - 01/05/13 10:26 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: 4evrBeginR]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: 4evrBeginR
Originally Posted By: BDB
I am not convinced that digital pianos cannot go out of tune. I am not convinced that some of them are ever in tune, for that matter.


You are not the first tech that brought this up. I had two separate techs tell me that my DP (an older Clavinova) is out tune. When I brought this up on the DP Forum some years ago, the participants came down on me really hard, saying, it's impossible. I was and still am not knowledgeable enough with piano tuning to argue with the DP Forum folks one way or another, so I just let it drop.


"In tune" is a relative term. I tune pianos much more accurately than most people will tune any other instrument, and yet, even pianos have anomalies. Digital pianos have different tolerances. The mantra that digital pianos are always in tune may reflect a lower tolerance than what I have for acoustic pianos.
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Semipro Tech

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#2009826 - 01/06/13 03:46 AM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Inca]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14207
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Digital versus acoustic can only be answered that in over almost 30 years I have never seen one single, above intermediate level pianist, trade an acoustic to a digital

Indeed in every single case I can recall it always was the other way around.

Coincidence?

Norbert
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#2009834 - 01/06/13 04:47 AM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Norbert]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5435
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Digital versus acoustic can only be answered that in over almost 30 years I have never seen one single, above intermediate level pianist, trade an acoustic to a digital

Indeed in every single case I can recall it always was the other way around.

Coincidence?

Norbert


I think that there have been a few people over in the DP forum who've asked advice about replacing their acoustic with a digital....

In my case, reality sank in after holding out for decades hoping to buy my first piano (a Bosendorfer 290 of course... grin ), having been playing since childhood, mostly on Yamaha uprights at my parents' home and then at university: no space and neighbor problems. But I think I bought at the right time, when new technology (modeling) has at last resulted in digitals that really can satisfy and respond to the pianist's touch almost uncannily like the real thing. Within a few seconds of putting my headphones on and starting to play, I forget that my 'piano' is just a high-tech box of electronic trickery. And I can play at full pelt at any time of the day or night, with my neighbors none the wiser...
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2009923 - 01/06/13 10:18 AM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Norbert]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Digital versus acoustic can only be answered that in over almost 30 years I have never seen one single, above intermediate level pianist, trade an acoustic to a digital

Indeed in every single case I can recall it always was the other way around.

Coincidence?

Norbert


Norbert, I traded in my Yamaha C3 about 14 years ago for a GranTouch. Does the GranTouch count as being digital in your eyes? I ask since so many here are in the either\or persuasion. I label the GranTouch and AvantGrand as hybrids. (I have since traded in my GranTouch for an AvantGrand.)

I also own a Yamaha CP5 stage piano for those situations when there is no acoustic piano or the acoustic piano in question is out of tune and\or poorly maintained.

I've made my living from playing\performing and I'm reasonably certain my level is above intermediate level. I know of several individuals who play above intermediate level who also traded in an acoustic piano for a hybrid.
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#2010027 - 01/06/13 02:03 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Inca]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3605
>What's the best choice?

It's just a different instrument. I stay away from DPs, IMHO they sound boring, non-inspiring and dead if you play them through the speakers.
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#2010045 - 01/06/13 02:18 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Dave B]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1570
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Eventually you will want one of each.


That's what I've got, so, yup, I agree.

Digital's advantages are portability, silent practice with headphones, and low maintenance.

Acoustic gives you better sound and better feel. A lot better.

The more different instruments you get to practice on, the better you'll be able to cope with the unique touch and sound of whatever other pianos you encounter.
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#2010264 - 01/06/13 09:18 PM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Norbert]
musicpassion Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 1116
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Digital versus acoustic can only be answered that in over almost 30 years I have never seen one single, above intermediate level pianist, trade an acoustic to a digital

Indeed in every single case I can recall it always was the other way around.

Coincidence?

Norbert


I agree this would be the more common scenerio. Interesting that a few members on this forum have gone in the other direction.
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#2010368 - 01/07/13 02:02 AM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Inca]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14207
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Interesting that a few members on this forum have gone in the other direction.


It's easy to understand from a sheer 'convenience' factor.
I myself own an advanced Roland keyboard and love playing it, mixing sounds, recording etc.

But it hasn't made me better player yet.

Love to hear from those who have made different experience.

Norbert
_________________________
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#2010432 - 01/07/13 06:38 AM Re: Electric vs acoustic piano? Whats the best choice? [Re: Norbert]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5435
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Interesting that a few members on this forum have gone in the other direction.


It's easy to understand from a sheer 'convenience' factor.
I myself own an advanced Roland keyboard and love playing it, mixing sounds, recording etc.

But it hasn't made me better player yet.

Love to hear from those who have made different experience.

Norbert


Since buying my DP, I've certainly become a much better pianist, but that's (I believe) mainly due to the fact that I now have a properly responsive instrument to practise on anytime I wanted to, whereas before, I'd have to make do with whatever acoustic piano I came across, whether in a church, hall, shopping mall, or stately home or hotel. Only the ones in showrooms were reliably tuned and prepped: I occasionally hired a practice room for a few hours to 'rewire' my piano technique. (I despised digitals then and wouldn't ever go near one... grin).

I certainly became a master of adapting to uneven action, sticky keys, missing/broken strings, even missing keys as well as all sorts of tuning (including where the high notes were lower than the low ones... grin - my imagination had to work overtime to convince me I was still playing the right notes), but they didn't do much for my technique other than barely maintaining it at the standard I had when I was at university.

Interestingly, a couple of years ago, I revisited my parents at their home where the little Yamaha console-sized vertical that I learnt on as a child still resides. It hadn't been played on or tuned since I left home (but that was no problem for me, with all my past experience wink ) - I was just curious to see what its action was like compared to my own new digital, because I remember having a very hard time adapting to the ones I had to play on for exams during that time. (My teacher then came to our house for my piano lessons). Its action was in fact amazingly light and shallow, and the dynamics very difficult to control, and its tonal character was as I remembered it - very bright and shallow even playing softly, becoming more harsh rather than more brilliant when playing loudly. I certainly prefer playing on my DP ; in fact, I think that even a good sampled DP - despite all its limitations on responsiveness to touch - would be preferable. (I'm of course comparing with that Yamaha in the state it would be when it has been tuned and regulated, not in the condition it was then).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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