Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
73 registered (AZNpiano, angga888, ando, Baroque Style, Anne H, 25 invisible), 1113 Guests and 11 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#2010998 - 01/08/13 05:25 AM Is the midi standard a limiting factor for Software Pianos
Adro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Northants UK
I've seen lots of questions like 'why don't DP manufacturers just put a cheap PC running Ivory II(are other software piano) in their pianos?

I don't know the full extent of midi data fields used by Software Pianos, but they must be limited and finite.

Therefore if a DP manufaturer adds sensors that capture data within the piano action and pedals that is above and beyong the Midi Standard, is there not an opportunity for manufacturers to develop software to use that data to create a better playing experience?

Any thoughts?

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
Yamaha Keyboards for Performance and Composition

Click Here


#2011013 - 01/08/13 06:07 AM Re: Is the midi standard a limiting factor for Software Pianos [Re: Adro]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2233
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Maybe, however, IMHO if they did put a PC into a DP, it would still be a worthwile improvement, just doing what is already possible using standard MIDI.

Greg.

Top
#2011019 - 01/08/13 06:44 AM Re: Is the midi standard a limiting factor for Software Pianos [Re: Adro]
Adro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Northants UK
There's no doubt in my mind that the best Software Piano's are at least as good as, if not better than the native DP sounds I've tried in shops. Having said that I have limited experience so am not the best judge.

I suppose there's a flip side to this question. What, if anything would Software Piano developers want transmitted from a controller in order that they could develop their products even further?

Top
#2011053 - 01/08/13 08:22 AM Re: Is the midi standard a limiting factor for Software Pianos [Re: Adro]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4367
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Adro
I've seen lots of questions like 'why don't DP manufacturers just put a cheap PC running Ivory II(are other software piano) in their pianos?

PC hardware is cheap, but it's a terrible market to intimately tie your products to. One production machine tool developed by a company I used to work for had a PC for brains - it was of course effectively obsolete by the time the machine hit the market, and upgrading it was problematic due to the level of integration necessary with the motion control electronics. What seems like a slam-dunk on the surface can be a tiger by the tail thing down the line.

The big embedded space revolution going on now is the ARM processor lashed to a Linux operating system. That should finally trickle down to the DP market backwaters sometime this century. When it does, DPs could potentially change explosively and for the better. (I believe clunky old proprietary processors and OSs are the main reasons DPs are such overpriced underperformers - that, and lame programmers.)

Originally Posted By: Adro
I don't know the full extent of midi data fields used by Software Pianos, but they must be limited and finite.

MIDI is quite limited, but it works pretty well for piano (though it's right on the edge). If we were developing the standard today it would undoubtedly have more bandwidth and more resolution, and be inherently bi-directional. I think MIDI has held synthesis in general back quite a bit, but that's perhaps another topic.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#2011058 - 01/08/13 08:28 AM Re: Is the midi standard a limiting factor for Software Pianos [Re: Adro]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
I don't think midi is the issue. There are 16 midi channels per port, each has numerous different controllers and each of those can have 128 different values.

There are people who think that more than 128 velocity levels would make the sound more realistic. I am not one of them. You could argue that having more samples within that range would result in less switchting/blending of samples, but the benefit of that past, say, 20-30 different samples is debatable when the blending is well done.

Top
#2011062 - 01/08/13 08:34 AM Re: Is the midi standard a limiting factor for Software Pianos [Re: Adro]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3901
Loc: North Carolina
dewsie: I think you're right about the PC vs. ARM point. But either way, the situation still depends upon the manufacturer's perceived need to do things differently and better. I don't think they see any such need, though Kawai's recent progress might kick Yamaha in the pants.

Or maybe not. I looked at the "specs" for the new CVP-600 series ... and they're sticking with their "Real Grand Expression" engine. Same old, same old.

Top
#2011082 - 01/08/13 09:11 AM Re: Is the midi standard a limiting factor for Software Pianos [Re: Gigantoad]
kurtie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 210
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
I don't think midi is the issue. There are 16 midi channels per port, each has numerous different controllers and each of those can have 128 different values.

There are people who think that more than 128 velocity levels would make the sound more realistic. I am not one of them. You could argue that having more samples within that range would result in less switchting/blending of samples, but the benefit of that past, say, 20-30 different samples is debatable when the blending is well done.


There is an extension to MIDI that uses high resolution velocity that allows for something like 16000 levels if I recall correctly. I know at least one keyboard (VAX infinitre response) and one software piano (Pianoteq) that are compatible with it. I've not tried it... I find the VAX too expensive and it does not suit my needs.

I think that having more velocity levels would be an improvement... not a huge improvement because having 128 levels is reasonably good, but is not going to worsen things, specially for modeled pianos where it has more sense to have more resolution in velocity. For sampled pianos the difference would be minimal to none as they usually have far less than 128 layers. I am not a huge fan of blending, but is better having it than not having it.

I believe that V-Piano uses more than 128 velocity levels internally... but not sure about that.

Regards,
Kurt.-


Edited by kurtie (01/08/13 09:12 AM)

Top
#2011088 - 01/08/13 09:30 AM Re: Is the midi standard a limiting factor for Software Pianos [Re: MacMacMac]
Adro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Northants UK
To me the crux of the matter is knowing what needs to be achieved.

From the comments so far I get the sense that both native DP engines and Software Pianos use the velocity and pedal data captured.

I'm guessing that work is done within the sound engine to select and process samples from sample banks. The modelled result is then output to a sound processor (Forgive my simplistic view - I'm IT literate but have no specialist knowledge in this field).

So, to determine whether we have the right data we have to fill in the following gap - "What's missing is .........." i.e the DP doesn't do this paticular thing and if it did that would make it better. Perhaps Kawai said 'what's missing is sound board sesonance' - so they added a soundboard.

Once we think we know what's missing we can determine what we need to do to remedy the situation.

We may decide that our sound engine needs to do something, but it can't 'cause it hasn't got the data. In this case we need to look at data capture and data transmission.

Alternatively we may decide that we have all the data we need but something different needs to happen in the engine or physically in the case of the DP.

So what's missing that would take the whole DP experience to a new level? or have we gone as far as we can barring refinement?

Top
#2011096 - 01/08/13 09:56 AM Re: Is the midi standard a limiting factor for Software Pianos [Re: MacMacMac]
Kos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 77
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
I looked at the "specs" for the new CVP-600 series ... and they're sticking with their "Real Grand Expression" engine. Same old, same old.

What are you talking about? Look at the new cabinet design! One of the models even has the lid, just like a real grand piano! I mean really, it doesn't get any more realistic than that.
_________________________
"There is nothing to piano playing besides producing the appropriate velocities on the appropriate keys at the appropriate time" (c) qvfarns

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Bottom of hammer hitting top of damper on upright
by JoeThePro
12/21/14 10:09 PM
Getting better
by Kekewak
12/21/14 07:35 PM
Pearl River vs. Samick
by Zekk
12/21/14 03:41 PM
Kawai vs. Yamaha: what to choose
by SeeSharp
12/21/14 02:19 PM
Disklavier Pro Alternatives? C5X Value for money?
by bryan77
12/21/14 01:15 PM
Forum Stats
77391 Members
42 Forums
160048 Topics
2350347 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission