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#2011540 - 01/09/13 03:11 AM Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates?
jefinho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: The Netherlands
First of all: I love this forum! There's so much useful information over here shared by passionated piano lovers. That's just wonderful.

I've read about everything on this forum about the Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 cause I'm very interested in buying a hybrid piano. I'm not in a hurry; just trying to get a focus on what I really need.
My conclusion right now is that the N1 is the smartest buy and the N3 the best buy. However, I was wondering if these piano's will be updated in the near future. Will there be a N1x, N2x or N3x (just making something up) anytime soon? I guess the action is very fine, but this is still a 256 polyphony piano for example.

Is it worth to wait for an update?
Thanks!

Best regards,
Jef

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#2011552 - 01/09/13 04:43 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
bennevis Online   content
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5553
The AvantGrands are digital pianos, and there are several threads over in the Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards forum about them. You'll get more help if you post over there.
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#2011557 - 01/09/13 05:18 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Jef, the AvantGrand series was introduced in 2009.

The GranTouch was introduced back in 1994 I believe.

The AvantGrand series is a mature product. I know Yamaha will add more features in the future but it's still a mature line. You have two choices - you can enjoy the technology now or keep waiting for the next slightly modified generation to appear.
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#2011594 - 01/09/13 08:00 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
jefinho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: The Netherlands
@bennevis: I guess you're right. Sorry about that.
@Dave: Thanks! The AvantGrands aren't that old and certainly very mature. I just worry about the idea spending thousands of euro's on a piano that may be updated soon. As I mentioned, 256 note polyphony is a lot, but I guess 512 note polyphony or higher would be perfect.

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#2011595 - 01/09/13 08:05 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Jef, the GranTouch had 32 note polyphony and I never noticed any shortcomings.
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#2012065 - 01/10/13 03:39 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: Dave Horne]
jefinho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: The Netherlands
Most of the time that seems to be enough, but I do get drop-outs once in a while.
Another question: Since you live in the Netherlands, and I do too: Where did you buy your N3? Did you get a reasonable price?
Yesterday a salesman told me Yamaha will raise their prices after january 14 - and I should hurry (of course I won't ;-)).

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#2012093 - 01/10/13 05:50 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Jef, I bought my AvantGrand N3 from Clavis Pianos in Nieuwegein. They also have a store in Amsterdam.

Initially the AvantGrand series was only sold by Yamaha piano dealers, the dealers who also sold acoustic grands. My local music store (Klundert Muziek in Oisterwijk) has an N1 on the floor. I asked the owner and he told me he could also order an N3 if I wanted one. This store in Oisterwijk does not sell acoustic pianos and is allowed, so it would seem, to sell the N series from Yamaha.

You can read the specifics about my trade in\purchase if you go to the DIGITAL PIANO "PRICES PAID" sticky thread in the Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards forum and look at my entry from May 2010.

I rather doubt the price increase would affect pianos on the floor ... and I wouldn't necessarily believe a salesman, I'd talk to the owner.

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#2012198 - 01/10/13 10:45 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2772
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: jefinho
Most of the time that seems to be enough, but I do get drop-outs once in a while.
Given the small number of extra features on the Avantgrands, can you imagine any situation, even non-musical scenarios, where 256 isn't enough?

I think 256 (and higher?) is the realm of workstations only, but I'm curious to see what you can come up with.
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#2012594 - 01/11/13 03:22 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
jefinho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: The Netherlands
I guess Tim Praskins explains it very well. Here's a quote:

"I will say that Yamaha's 256 note polyphony (polyphony is important when more notes and damper pedaling are used at the same time in a piece of music) is very high in today's digital piano standards, but ultimately not high enough in my opinion if your playing complex advanced music using lots of pedaling and fast moving music. That is a definite limitation and not one which can be modified or adjusted. In reality, these pianos should have a minimum of 512 note polyphony or higher because after all, even the new Yamaha Clavinova CLP440 which sells for about $3000 discount price has 256-note polyphony and the new Casio PX850 coming out in late October ($1099 internet price) has 256 note polyphony! You would think for the the much higher prices, the AvantGrands would have at least double that, but they don't and that's a disappointment. "

More here:
http://azpianonews.blogspot.nl/2011/10/review-yamaha-avantgrand-n1-n2-n3.html

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#2012598 - 01/11/13 03:34 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
jefinho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: The Netherlands
Dave, thanks for the advise. I will definitely check Clavis out.
I talked to the owner of the piano store. He told me that the prices will rise after january 14. He even showed me 2 official price lists by Yamaha:

N3 - 2012 price: €16.843
N2 - 2012 price: €12.115
N1 - 2012 price: €7.012
NU1 - 2012 price: €4.816

N3 - 2013 price: €17.347
N2 - 2013 price: €12.479
N1 - 2013 price: €7.222
NU1 - 2013 price: €4.961


Edited by jefinho (01/11/13 03:35 AM)
Edit Reason: Added euro symbols

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#2012622 - 01/11/13 05:57 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Jef, I will simply repeat what I have said here many times, don't buy a piano based on numbers. Play the piano in question and base your opinion on that experience.

I have a fair amount of technique and I have never noticed any note stealing or drop outs of any kind ... even on my GranTouch.

I tried to hear this Tim Praskins play the piano since if 256 note polyphony is limiting in his opinion, he must be an incredibly demanding pianist. Unfortunately I could not find a recording of his playing.

EDIT - After searching on YouTube (that's usually where I find my music) for this Tim Praskins, I then searched using Google and came across a 'Tim Praskins' at https://soundcloud.com/tim-praskins also from Phoenix. I assume that is the same Tim. I listened to a few numbers and was not overly impressed. Believe me, 32 polyphony would have served him well. smile

Play the piano you are considering buying for your yourself and trust your own judgment.
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#2012627 - 01/11/13 06:44 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
jefinho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: The Netherlands
If this is the same Tim, indeed he doesn't need a 256 note polyphony piano.
However, I do get drop outs occasionally on my Kawai CA51 which has a max of 96 notes. That's not as much as 256, so maybe I'm fine with that.

I've played the N3 for a very short time - so maybe my opinion is based too much on what others say about it. Before I buy any of these N's I will try them out for a longer time and compare them with real grands.
Thanks.

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#2012830 - 01/11/13 01:52 PM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Tim Praskins just sells pianos but he dresses his "advice" up as impartial and unbiased. But he just favours the models he sells. It's a shame that people seem to be turning to him thinking he is some font of knowledge. He is not. From what I can tell he is just rather keen on recommending Casio digital pianos mainly. Perhaps because he sells them!?

To say that 256 note polyphony is inadequate ON ANY PIANO, playing ANY MUSIC is total nonsense. If that's the guy's opinion he knows nothing. 256 is complete overkill and more than enough for anyone. The time when it might be an issue is where piano sounds can be layered with multiple other instrument sounds and effects such as sympathetic resonance and effects - some implementations of these phenomena also use up polyphony. But the AvantGrand cannot layer and there is almost nothing in the way of effects so you would never run out of notes with 256 polyphony. Never.
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#2012913 - 01/11/13 03:49 PM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2772
Loc: Atlanta, GA
So if you play every note simultaneously and then (with the pedal still down) play double chromatic scales over the entire keyboard, you are still below 256 polyphony. If you play 2 layers of instruments and do the same thing, you are still below 256 polyphony. So I suggest again that 256 or greater polyphony is purely the realm of workstations where you might layer 4 or more sounds.
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#2014206 - 01/14/13 02:52 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
Maxtor Offline

Bronze Supporter until Jan 01 2013


Registered: 08/14/11
Posts: 182
I am majoring in computer science and, for the life of me, I cannot understand what polyphony really is - and I honestly believe that it has very little real meaning.
A standard definition is that polyphony of 1 is a single note, polyphony of 2 is two simultaneous notes, etc. However, a single note contains many harmonics - is each harmonic counted as "1 polyphony"? (please forgive me for transforming polyphony into a unit of measurement). If you play a note while holding the sustain pedal, then each and every string in an acoustic piano will vibrate slightly and sympathetically - so does this mean that playing 1 note while holding sustain will induce 88 polyphony? And what happens if you play an octave, so one note just reinforces the higher harmonics of the other, is this 1 or 2 polyphony?
I think this illustrates the problem that polyphony attempts to define. The number cannot actually convey quality. This is an issue in many industries: photography (megapixels), computer CPUs (gigahertz), astronomy (telescope magnification), and countless others.


I will venture a guess that polyphony only measures the maximum number of sounds that the keyboard's internal computer may try to process simultaneously - and "may" is a key word because the processor can be designed to drop sounds earlier if they are complex. How well the processor handles these sounds is a completely different issue. It is very possible to handle 256 sounds and ruin all of them. I would not be suprised if the AvantGrand did drop notes when it is played to an extreme, but it should be difficult for a human to discern this IF the processor and its software are well designed. We do not know the criteria and limits that the processor uses.
Unless Yamaha releases a diagram of the electronics or at least gives the model names of the chips, I think that the polyphony is as usefull a number as the wattage from the speakers. Personally, I would rather know how many pins the CPU has, because that could at least tell me something useful.

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#2014237 - 01/14/13 05:06 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1438
Yes polyphony isn't the number of keys you can play, but the number of sounds the computer can play.

My CP-300 has 128 note polyphony. You'd think that would be enough, but, with the harmonics, the pedal, and other things, there is a palpable drop out.

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#2014252 - 01/14/13 06:25 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: joe80]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: joe80
Yes polyphony isn't the number of keys you can play, but the number of sounds the computer can play.

My CP-300 has 128 note polyphony. You'd think that would be enough, but, with the harmonics, the pedal, and other things, there is a palpable drop out.


Joe, could you give an idea of what it is you are playing when you have dropouts? I ask because I owned a CP300 for several years and I never had that happen.
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#2017122 - 01/19/13 08:05 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
jefinho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: The Netherlands
So today I've tried them all out: the N1, N2, N3 and NU1.
The action of the N2 and N3 were similar. I was pretty amazed, cause it was like playing on a real grand (just talking about the action).
The N1 was slightly different. I still got the "grand piano feel" - but it wasn't as good as the N2 and 3.
And yes... you were right Dave: the 256-note polyphony didn't give me any dropouts or alike.

I was a bit disappointed in the NU1. I really looked forward to trying this one out cause I read lot some positive stories in this forum.
However, the action wasn't as fast and deep as the N serie. More like an upright piano.

But then I did something that got me confused: I tried out some real grands...
I've tried out a second hand - well regulated - Yamaha C5 for about the same price as a N3.
With all respect to what Yamaha has done with the N serie: they don't give you the inspiration and the nuances of the real thing.
So, right now I will rethink all the pros and cons; take all the time I need to make the right decision: acoustic, digital or both...


Edited by jefinho (01/19/13 08:08 AM)

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#2017133 - 01/19/13 08:48 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5553
Originally Posted By: jefinho
So today I've tried them all out: the N1, N2, N3 and NU1.
The action of the N2 and N3 were similar. I was pretty amazed, cause it was like playing on a real grand (just talking about the action).
The N1 was slightly different. I still got the "grand piano feel" - but it wasn't as good as the N2 and 3.
And yes... you were right Dave: the 256-note polyphony didn't give me any dropouts or alike.

I was a bit disappointed in the NU1. I really looked forward to trying this one out cause I read lot some positive stories in this forum.
However, the action wasn't as fast and deep as the N serie. More like an upright piano.

But then I did something that got me confused: I tried out some real grands...
I've tried out a second hand - well regulated - Yamaha C5 for about the same price as a N3.
With all respect to what Yamaha has done with the N serie: they don't give you the inspiration and the nuances of the real thing.
So, right now I will rethink all the pros and cons; take all the time I need to make the right decision: acoustic, digital or both...


I don't want to turn this into a DP thread, but as you're staying on this forum rather than transferring over to the DP forum....

Why not try the Roland V-Piano: I don't know how accomplished a pianist you are or what kind of music you play, but the V-Piano and its big brother V-Piano Grand are the only modeled DPs so far, and it shows. You get practically all the nuances and tonal and dynamic control of a good acoustic grand which you can't get from any sampled DP like the N1/2/3/NU1, and as an acoustic piano substitute pure and simple, there's nothing better. The sound is generated from when you press the key down, which is how it's done in real pianos, unlike sampled DPs where the sound comes from prerecorded samples which are then processed to disguise artifacts as much as possible (but looping on sustained notes etc shows there is a limit on what can be done). And its key action is more than good enough (and feels 'authentic' enough) to allow you full control of what you play, depending on your level of technical accomplishment, of course.

I think too many people get over-obsessed on 'authentic grand piano action' (which the AvantGrands certainly don't have, despite their blurb) . I've played enough acoustics over the years to realize that there is no such thing as a standard action - you only have to glance over at a neighboring thread to see the current discussion going on about heavy actions, deep and shallow travel and so forth: all serious pianists need to be able to adapt, unless you only ever plan on playing your own personal piano, of course.
I mentioned it in previous threads, but I'll say it again here - the V-Piano action felt indistinguishable to a (fairly new) Grotrian grand I played once in a showroom, which in turn was quite different to a Shigeru Kawai SK7 beside it, which in its turn was even more different to the Fazioli F278 concert grand I also played there. In other words, actions on pianos - upright or grands - vary enormously and I wouldn't use it as the main criteria on choosing your own piano, AP or DP. What really matters is whether you can get what you want out of it in terms of playability and its response to your playing, and can live with it in the long term - assuming you're not one of the 'serial upgraders' that many DP owners are.......
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#2017140 - 01/19/13 09:03 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
It is intresting that the musical term has been so corrupted by its use in the digital world. In musicology and theory, polyphony and voicing would not be confused or interchanged.
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2017154 - 01/19/13 09:43 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5553
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
It is intresting that the musical term has been so corrupted by its use in the digital world. In musicology and theory, polyphony and voicing would not be confused or interchanged.


Not just in digital grin.

I was brought up on classical music, and always thought 'voicing' meant the weighting of individual notes within chords or rapid passages where the melodies and counterpoints ('polyphony') etc are within their midst.

Then I came upon some posts by jazz pianists and realized they meant something completely different......
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2017156 - 01/19/13 09:50 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
You can also think of voicing in terms of choice in choral composition or orchestration. But, it remains separate from polyphony.
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#2017168 - 01/19/13 10:27 AM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3708
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
You can also think of voicing in terms of choice in choral composition or orchestration. But, it remains separate from polyphony.


Yes, and in jazz voicing refers to how you distribute the notes of your chords. ie, inversions, closely spaced/widely spaced, omitted notes etc. There are a lot of terms in music that require us to have very good understanding of the context and application.

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#2017269 - 01/19/13 01:44 PM Re: Yamaha N1, N2 and N3 updates? [Re: jefinho]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: jefinho

The N1 was slightly different. I still got the "grand piano feel" - but it wasn't as good as the N2 and 3.

I was a bit disappointed in the NU1. I really looked forward to trying this one out cause I read lot some positive stories in this forum.


That's because it does have an upright action. If you compared it to an acoustic upright like the U3, it's actually pretty similar. So if you went into the NU1 thinking it is an upright piano, your impression would be much better. Also, the positive sentiment has a lot to do with its price. The N1, N2, N3 are so much more expensive, my expectation would be also much higher. Value is always part of any evaluation whether or not people mention it. In other words since the P85 is only $500, it's absolutely awesome - at that price it just has to work to be great. For an $80K Steinway, it had better move heaven and earth for me, or else it's not a good deal.
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