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#2011642 - 01/09/13 10:25 AM Kawai VPC
davinwv Offline
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Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Bridgeport, WV
It appears to be a stripped-down, controller only version of the MP10:

www.kawaivpc.com

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#2011654 - 01/09/13 10:45 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: davinwv
It appears to be a stripped-down, controller only version of the MP10:

www.kawaivpc.com


I like the little platform for the laptop.

I'm only getting one page there, no blurb at all. Have you heard news elsewhere?

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#2011655 - 01/09/13 10:52 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
davinwv Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Bridgeport, WV
No - this was posted in a thread regarding 88-key controllers with flat tops on the Keyboard Corner. This is all I've seen.

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#2011662 - 01/09/13 11:05 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
...mmmmm (drool), I think I want one. My fear is if it's going to be pure controller then it would have to be without compromise which suggests quite a heavy beast.

Speculation should reach fever pitch.

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#2011692 - 01/09/13 12:46 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
That is drool-worthy indeed. If only there was some information there, not just a link.

So you have information that it will feature the RM3 action, rather than GF or RH2. Is that right? Could you include the keyboard corner link? I'm cool with weight, but I would like to have the latest and greatest action, if possible.


Edited by gvfarns (01/09/13 03:16 PM)

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#2011746 - 01/09/13 02:57 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
That is what I'll need, and what I am waiting for now, if it is GF or RH2.

RM3 would be a non-sense (neither for me nor for Kawai I think.)

But price tag will be an interesting question too.

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#2011751 - 01/09/13 03:13 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Temperament]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Temperament
RM3 would be a non-sense (neither for me nor for Kawai I think.)


Although this is not necessarily unlikely. Remember, they came out last year with the CE220, which they outfitted with the AWA PRO II action, even though RM3 was well-established and in fact was about to be replaced with the GF action. I'm not sure if they are trying to burn through inventory or what, but it appears that Kawai is very comfortable putting out new products that use older actions.

My fear is that this will be a great product but for whatever reason Kawai America will decide not to sell it. Non-US customers have had access to several very interesting pianos---the CS9, for example, and CA13. The CA13 is a scary example because it's kind of along the same lines as this controller: a more basic version of more expensive products that nonetheless has what we are really going for: the good action. You can't get it in the US.

If the controller is announced at NAMM, I guess there's little chance it will not be available in the US, though. Right?

And as you point out, if the price difference between it and the top stage piano is very small, I will be extremely disappointed as well. When there are no good alternatives, we're always at the mercy of the people who decide what price these will be.


Edited by gvfarns (01/09/13 03:14 PM)

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#2011767 - 01/09/13 03:40 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
davinwv Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Bridgeport, WV
Here's a link to the Keyboard Corner VPC thread:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2461641#Post2461641

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#2011771 - 01/09/13 03:47 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
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Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Cool. Want one ; be it rm3 II (with third sensor ) or GH. Price probably bit above ES7 in some countries, bit below or equal to ES in other places. I really doubt it'll be RH II, almost certain GH or similar. Goal: best possible keybed in a sleek and well thought through design for people who want the best respons , but don't care about internal sounds and other gadgets . Space to put you laptop; big big plus. Have been waiting for a design that takes the placement of your laptop in consideration right from the beginning. iPad stand is nice (Acuna, Akai) , but tablets are just not powerful enough (yet). Details will probably follow at NAMM. Unless Kawai wants to have a scoop and does a press release before the show. Can't wait ;-) Need any beta-testers Kawai ???

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#2011773 - 01/09/13 03:52 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
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Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
James is that your netbook on top of the VPC :-)

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#2011781 - 01/09/13 04:12 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3193
Originally Posted By: JFP
James is that your netbook on top of the VPC :-)

I don't know about it being his computer, but I think it's his Nord on top of what may well be the VPC in this thread...

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2002263/3/New%20Nord%20Italian%20Grand.html

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#2011793 - 01/09/13 04:22 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
Temperament Offline
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Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
It was this of him: New addition, but it's not red...
Originally Posted By: Kawai James


On a one-month loan from R&D while I'm testing something. wink

I intend to MIDI it up to my Electro, but only have a USB-->MIDI cable at the moment.

The action feels great though, and will give my fingers a real work-out compared to what I'm used to playing.
x

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#2011797 - 01/09/13 04:28 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
anotherscott: Good point! HOWEVER, looking at the image of the VPC, it looks different to the keyboard in that other thread. However, maybe it was a prototype.....

Unless that VPC image isn't actually how it really looks? (it looks too clean - no knobs or anything)

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (01/09/13 04:31 PM)

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#2011798 - 01/09/13 04:32 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
davinwv Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Bridgeport, WV
Perhaps this is the photo of the VPC1 with his Nord:


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#2011806 - 01/09/13 04:47 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Yup! Looks more like it...


Edited by JFP (01/09/13 04:48 PM)

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#2011819 - 01/09/13 05:11 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9050
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Pretty cool combo, huh? wink

_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2011833 - 01/09/13 05:52 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Aeons Holle Offline
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Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 55
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Pretty cool, huh? wink


Yes indeed! thumb

Note to self:
In the future, do not buy big expensive console piano a few months before NAMM, only because of its great action to use it solely with VSTs and headphones.
_________________________
Kawai CA95
VI Labs True Keys: Pianos
Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D, Italian Grand, Grand Pianos
Galaxy Vintage D, The Giant

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#2011837 - 01/09/13 05:56 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
kurtie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 207
I think this is the keyboard I would buy if I would have to buy one... Damn it! I'm getting the GAS right now... must... breath... deeply...

Regards,
Kurt.-

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#2011898 - 01/09/13 08:32 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
martijefre Offline
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Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 7
it would have to be without compromise which suggests quite a heavy beast.
_________________________
Emily Brown

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#2011912 - 01/09/13 08:56 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 74
Loc: Uberaba, Minas Gerais, Brazil
For sure it looks like a good controller to have in home. Looks solid like a tank. Probally best for home. I'm very curious about how it feels. Never played either MP6 and MP10. frown
_________________________
"But its got a crap keyboard action Dave ... no amount of great sounds help that."
Dr. Popper

Piano Student at State Conservatory Renato Frateschi - Uberaba - Minas Gerais - Brazil

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#2011919 - 01/09/13 09:08 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Aeons Holle]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1832
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Aeons Holle
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Pretty cool, huh? wink


Yes indeed! thumb

Note to self:
In the future, do not buy big expensive console piano a few months before NAMM, only because of its great action to use it solely with VSTs and headphones.


You know ... one of the things you need to come to grips with in the midst of all this technology and "cool" keyboards, etc ... is this ...

Are you in this to learn to play the piano really well ?

OR ...

Are you more interested in playing with all sorts of "cool" sounding equipment and always on the lookout for the next inovation ?

There is absolutely no end to the technology.

But, if you wish to learn to play well ... you have all you need right now.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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#2012062 - 01/10/13 03:35 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dmd]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
I am interested in both - as quiet typical in this forum: piano art (just music) and technology.

In digital you cannot make serious mistakes, you can always updgrade. We don't acquire digital gear for life - our purchases should be considered more as renting decision's for a limited time span (typically 3-5 Ys.) Amortisation has to be calculated with, both financially and technologically.

You are better off with the second highest range but up-to-date product than have the best but wait three or more update cycle with an update.

On the other side, while not having the latest thing might be not optimal, we have a development behind us where current tools (keybeds) have already accumaleted a plenty of engeneering quality .Progress with the next generation is evolutionary and often improving marginal nuances only.

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#2012105 - 01/10/13 07:13 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3801
Loc: North Carolina
Temp: You're right about the slow progress ... evolutionary, etc. But as for treating a piano as a temp or as a rental, you speak for yourself.

From whence comes your 3 to 5 year estimate? Perhaps that's your pattern, and so be it. But how can you conclude that this is somehow typical? I bought a piano four years ago, and, if it lasts, I'll keep it for another fifteen or twenty years.

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#2012143 - 01/10/13 08:37 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
origen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 84
Loc: New Hampshire
Please let this have at least a mod wheel, please please please, without one how do you do all the neat things with LASS or East West, Symphobia, Adagio or any of the other orchestral libraries that a buyer of this type of controller will use along with pianos. Im paranoid because it really doesn't look like there is room for one in the picture, if however there is one then Im probably standing in line already, unless Roland really wows us with a complete supernatural workstation, but even then I think I'd rather have less cost since a Roland workstation would probably set me back 4 grand.
_________________________
RD700NX, Komplete 8, NI Maschine

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#2012154 - 01/10/13 09:02 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9050
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
origen, I think you may be disappointed...

However, there are plenty of relatively inexpensive MIDI control surfaces to add knobs, buttons, and wheels out there - take you pick!

As for a SuperNatural workstation, I believe Dr Popper recently eluded to a new Fantom, so it's possible...

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2012157 - 01/10/13 09:09 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: MacMacMac]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1832
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
I bought a piano four years ago, and, if it lasts, I'll keep it for another fifteen or twenty years.


Which, also, is probably not typical.

Also, the availability of VSTs now enables one to make changes periodically to the sound without swapping out the keybed/piano. That is ... if you find VST sounds satisfying. I have not been able to get to that point.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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#2012172 - 01/10/13 09:38 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
If this keybed is really really good and it has some way of smart interfacing with your software solution(s) - be it laptop and/or tablet - there's no more need to buy a new set of keys every few years, just because the sounds get boring. Update your SW and off you go for another round of years. The keys can then stay and last for a loooooong time....(additional controllers you can add and replace when needed). Just my idea..

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#2012178 - 01/10/13 09:57 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
dmd Offline
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Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1832
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: JFP
If this keybed is really really good and it has some way of smart interfacing with your software solution(s) - be it laptop and/or tablet - there's no more need to buy a new set of keys every few years, just because the sounds get boring. Update your SW and off you go for another round of years. The keys can then stay and last for a loooooong time....(additional controllers you can add and replace when needed). Just my idea..


It is a GREAT idea !

However, in my case, I have not been able to embrace the sound I hear using the software generated sounds. I may sound a little muffled, distant, latent, or some other perceived flaw.

So, the theory is great. But, my reality ... not so much.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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#2012196 - 01/10/13 10:40 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3193
Originally Posted By: JFP
If this keybed is really really good and it has some way of smart interfacing with your software solution(s) - be it laptop and/or tablet - there's no more need to buy a new set of keys every few years, just because the sounds get boring. Update your SW and off you go for another round of years. The keys can then stay and last for a loooooong time....(additional controllers you can add and replace when needed). Just my idea..

I think that's largely the point!

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#2012250 - 01/10/13 12:52 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
origen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 84
Loc: New Hampshire
Is there anything like a stand alone x/y joystick or modwheel that can just midi or usb into the controller for the purpose of articulations? Ive got a novation remote zero 61 key, but I'd rather not have to reach too far, so if I can sit something right on the vpc that would be a great solution, or would an expression pedal be able to simulate the articulations, as well as having a sustain pedal plugged in at the same time? wink


Edited by origen (01/10/13 12:59 PM)
_________________________
RD700NX, Komplete 8, NI Maschine

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#2012261 - 01/10/13 01:15 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: MacMacMac]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Hi, Mac,
I am speaking for myself, of course. I was ringing steadly with the idea of loosing something due to bad buying decisions, having the steady pain of having to find on optimal long time ackqusisition. Especially because I was grown up in older traditionalist family in relatively hard economical decades in a country of Europe's soviet-occupied former eastern block - Hungary, where the posession of old goods was dire and material things highly esteemed. And now we all are living in "disposable" societies. Digital technology especially is constructed with disposable bricks.

I found quiet comforting the idea to think of my tools and other possessions as rental objects rather than ethernal or at least life-long possessions, something to be inheritable - because otherwise facing loss of value was a steady pain.

The 3-5 ys. replacement cycle is just my pace derived from this everyday phylosophy. I sold my 5 ys. of CA51 for half of it's original price (actually partially paid for my newly built clavichord with it) - not because it was not functioning for me. I could use it for another 3-5 ys, but I weighted up the higher risk of an older over-used instrument without any warranty to get broken down, and that it's state is now a good value for somebody, but in another 3 ys. I cannot recommend it at all against a cheap state-of-theart instrument anymore. And yes, I weighted up my need for some benefits of an up-to-date action - Kawai's recent 3 sensor actions are 2 generation over my AWA GrandProII - James said somewhere about an 8 ys. old such keybed that it might be ripe for regulating...

This sort of viewing things is just my relationship to the gears of my work and hobbies, and helped me personally a lot to see things more relaxed. I am free to update a keyboard e.g., if I
need an improvement - cost is not a scandal but a calculated factor.

It may be all very trivial, but one collegue of mine is irritated by this viewing of things, he thinks in a "my house is my castle" way - it is just his way.

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#2012262 - 01/10/13 01:16 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: origen]
Coldsalmon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 42
Quote:
Ive got a novation remote zero 61 key, but I'd rather not have to reach too far, so if I can sit something right on the vpc that would be a great solution


If you like the Novation, you can always try the Novation Remote Zero SL, which is just the MIDI controls with no keyboard attached. I have the original version sitting on my Korg SP-250 and it's really excellent. They now sell the Mk II, which is slightly different.


Edited by Coldsalmon (01/10/13 01:18 PM)

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#2012266 - 01/10/13 01:27 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dmd]
Aeons Holle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 55
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: dmd
Originally Posted By: Aeons Holle
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Pretty cool, huh? wink


Yes indeed! thumb

Note to self:
In the future, do not buy big expensive console piano a few months before NAMM, only because of its great action to use it solely with VSTs and headphones.


You know ... one of the things you need to come to grips with in the midst of all this technology and "cool" keyboards, etc ... is this ...

Are you in this to learn to play the piano really well ?

OR ...

Are you more interested in playing with all sorts of "cool" sounding equipment and always on the lookout for the next inovation ?

There is absolutely no end to the technology.

But, if you wish to learn to play well ... you have all you need right now.



Yes, I believe we are actually on the same page here.

My point with that little „note“ was not about wanting to stay up to date all the time, but to get all the features I need in the least expensive, most convenient package.

I recently bought my CA95 mainly because of its great GF action. Then, despite its vast tweaking abilities I soon found myself enjoying it more with VSTs and headphones, which means that I’m currently not using a big part of its feature set like the internal sound engine and soundboard system.

Assuming that the new Kawai VPC will feature the GF action, had I waited a bit I could soon have gotten this one instead of the CA95, with the exact same result (sound and action) for less money.

Though I do admit the CA95 looks very beautiful, which certainly contributes its part to the whole piano playing experience.

FWIW, I owned my previous Yamaha CLP 170 for more than 7 years before I sold it to a friend, who continues to enjoy it immensely.
My desire to upgrade to the Kawai actually only arised because last year I started to rent a practice room with a Blüthner grand. The gap between that one and the CLP was too big for frequent readjustment.

Now, it's not like the VPC announcement would cost me any sleep. I could afford the CA95 and I'm really happy with the action, so I'm bound to enjoy it for a very long time. As said before, if the desire to update arises it's now a question of updating the VST side rather than replacing the whole piano to get better sound, which is comparatively cheap and convenient.
_________________________
Kawai CA95
VI Labs True Keys: Pianos
Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D, Italian Grand, Grand Pianos
Galaxy Vintage D, The Giant

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#2012267 - 01/10/13 01:28 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
+1,

I don't have to buy things, which I don't use (internal sounds, amp, boxes, menu, lcd), and which are amortising quicker than the phyisical parts such as keybed.

I considered to buy a slightly better instrument just to make a better investment value return by calculating better demand and retail for used. But I am using almost exclusively VSTs, active monitors with subwoofers, PC-Audio interfaces too...

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#2012397 - 01/10/13 05:59 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
@ColdSalmon; having had two MKII Novation units I found the touch control to be too sensitive. If you moved one knob , very often other parts of the controller reacted too and shifted some values, or jumped to another page / ctrl value or knob. Could be just me of course, but I would suggest you try the MKII very seriously before buying and see if it works for you. The software matured during the years. Knobs and sliders are fine (though too sensitive for me) , pads are so so and XY control is totally worthless. So far on the Novation. (Better/ more flexible interfacing with SW than M-Audio IMHO). It's on the market for quite a while; I would wait for NAMM and see if new controller boxes will show up (Novation MKIII, new stuff).

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#2015057 - 01/15/13 05:55 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
This looks perfect. I'm really glad I didn't buy the A88 yet. Time to call my local Kawai dealer and make sure they get one when available.

Edit... Almost perfect. Some controllers would have been nice but I guess I can work around that.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (01/15/13 06:21 PM)
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2015069 - 01/15/13 06:26 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 796
Originally Posted By: Kawai James


Cool. Resistance is futile. I need one of these for my little Nord.
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.

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#2015075 - 01/15/13 06:39 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: maurus]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9050
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: maurus
Originally Posted By: Kawai James


Cool. Resistance is futile. I need one of these for my little Nord.


You and me both. wink

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2015082 - 01/15/13 06:52 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Any chance it will hold a Jupiter 80?
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2015103 - 01/15/13 08:02 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9050
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Any chance it will hold a Jupiter 80?


Yeah, I expect so.

But good luck getting any playing done. wink



Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
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#2015104 - 01/15/13 08:03 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Any chance it will hold a Jupiter 80?


Yeah, I expect so.

But good luck getting any playing done. wink



Cheers,
James
x


LOL. Ok. Double tier it is.
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#2015106 - 01/15/13 08:07 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Man, that Jupiter 80 is a beast!
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#2015301 - 01/16/13 06:45 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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James,

do you know if it will be sold on Brazil as well? And, can you tell us the price range we may find the VPC?
Thank you.

Kind regards
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#2015306 - 01/16/13 07:13 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Hello Pedro,

I'm hopeful that this new board will be available in Brazil, however such decisions are typically made by the distributor - they will only import items that they believe will sell.

Regarding pricing, I'm afraid I cannot comment before the official unveiling at NAMM, however it's fair to assume that this new board will have a lower price than the MP10.

Kind regards,
James
x
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#2015309 - 01/16/13 07:15 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Second teaser online, by the way...[cough]
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#2015316 - 01/16/13 07:29 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Dr Popper Offline
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It's a great idea.... I'm going to be really interested in how it fares. One thing I do know is that it's a predominetly home user product. The number of people screaming for a no frills controller with a state of the art action has been huge .... Now it's time for them to put up or shut up. The Roland a-88 is a similar idea but has control surfaces that pros and live players will appreciate but the action won't compete with the VPC. It "should" sell well "if" Kawai can market it correctly AND manage to supply it through their various channels. They need to get it into the web stores and chains at a decent price in good quantities and market it carefully. We shall see what happens I guess.
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#2015345 - 01/16/13 08:32 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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I am wondering if this Kawai VPC would have a hollow space wide enough to fully accomodate a Nord Piano inside laugh So, you store your NP into the Kawai VPC at home and get it out for gigging only laugh It could as well be marketed as a "hard case for your Nord NP with a proper hammer action embedded" laugh


Edited by CyberGene (01/16/13 08:35 AM)
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#2015354 - 01/16/13 09:01 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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Wondering if the VPC will be available here... and how much will cost. :X But if comes on the right price, maybe I'll get one after a year or so. :\
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#2015365 - 01/16/13 09:31 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Dr Popper]
dewster Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
One thing I do know is that it's a predominetly home user product.

Too bad it isn't built into a flight case. I can't say I like the slightly rounded and somewhat angled top, it seems like the style-over-substance group was given too much control (as usual, when will the madness end?). I wonder if it has a music rest? A 3 pedal unit? A custom stand? 5 pin DIN MIDI connector?

I'm not a Kawai key mechanism expert, does this have their best keys?
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#2015398 - 01/16/13 10:40 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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By the way, this must be 1/2 the price of MP10, otherwise I don't see much sense in buying a huge wooden box with no internal sounds and only slightly cheaper than MP10... We'll wait and see.
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#2015408 - 01/16/13 11:04 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
gvfarns Offline
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Originally Posted By: dewster
I'm not a Kawai key mechanism expert, does this have their best keys?


Unfortunately I haven't seen what action it will use anywhere. Could be a plastic action, could be a wood action. Could be one of the latest generation (GF and RH2) or it could be an older action. Two sensor, three sensor. As far as I've seen there is no information on these questions.

Will NAMM never arrive and kill the tension around here?

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#2015437 - 01/16/13 11:49 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: gvfarns]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Will NAMM never arrive and kill the tension around here?


I think everyone here is counting for NAMM's arrival. :P
And I'm seriously thinking when Kawai will launch the substitutes for MP6 and MP10.

Do you have any clue, James? laugh
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#2015449 - 01/16/13 12:14 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Rhodie73 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Second teaser online, by the way...[cough]


Where?
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#2015487 - 01/16/13 01:26 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Deffie Offline
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The picture at http://www.kawaivpc.com/ has been updated so the focus is now on the laptop.

Anyone recognize the software it's running?
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#2015496 - 01/16/13 01:41 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kbeaumont Offline
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Actually it looks to me like it might be software to edit the controller itself. The curve looks like its adjusting the velocity response. Since I don't see any knobs, display or menus on the controller itself, then it either hides them or uses software.

update: Looking closer maybe a DAW program like reaper, it allows you to change the look using themes.


Edited by Kbeaumont (01/16/13 01:49 PM)
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#2015720 - 01/16/13 07:07 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
o0Ampy0o Offline
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Teaser #1


Teaser #2


Teaser #2 Close-up

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#2015723 - 01/16/13 07:11 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Pedro_Henrique]
Kawai James Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Pedro_Henrique
And I'm seriously thinking when Kawai will launch the substitutes for MP6 and MP10.

Do you have any clue, James? laugh


Nope. wink
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#2015778 - 01/16/13 08:44 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Pedro_Henrique
And I'm seriously thinking when Kawai will launch the substitutes for MP6 and MP10.

Do you have any clue, James? laugh


Nope. wink


Come on... not a little one?
Ok, I believe in you.
But anyway, how much time Kawai substitutes their Digital Pianos? (That you can tell!)
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#2015851 - 01/16/13 11:53 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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It depends on the product range. However, other factors such as sales figures are also taken into account. If an instrument is selling well, there is less urgency to replace it with a new model.


Cheers,
James
x
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#2016150 - 01/17/13 01:36 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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Thank you James... Yeah, it seems like I really have to wait, and not try to figure when it will happen. But anyway, another stupid question LOL: Will Kawai return to the Workstation/Synths market? It's a question that many here on Brazil ask a lot of times on a Brazilian Keyboard Forum.
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#2016206 - 01/17/13 03:36 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Pedro, while you can 'never say never', I believe it's unlikely. Kawai is first and foremost a piano company, so this is our priority.

Kind regards,
James
x
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#2016581 - 01/18/13 08:48 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Pedro, you may be interested to learn that two representatives from Kawai's Brazilian distributor, Pianofatura, visited Kawai Japan late last year. I had the pleasure of meeting the two chaps, and we enjoyed chatting about Brazilian football and Brazilians playing in the Premier League.

They seemed rather enthusiastic about the new board too. wink

Cheers,
James
x
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#2016584 - 01/18/13 08:56 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Pedro, you may be interested to learn that two representatives from Kawai's Brazilian distributor, Pianofatura, visited Kawai Japan late last year. I had the pleasure of meeting the two chaps, and we enjoyed chatting about Brazilian football and Brazilians playing in the Premier League.

They seemed rather enthusiastic about the new board too. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Really nice to 'hear' that... but now tell me, football? auhauha Bleeergh. I hated when I was in high school and the gym teacher obligated me to play football. I prefer to stay quiet listening to music. :P You should meet more of our music... much more pleasant than football (IMO).


Edited by Pedro_Henrique (01/18/13 09:02 AM)
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#2016599 - 01/18/13 09:36 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Pedro, I must confess that I am a big football fan!

My home town is Norwich, and I still follow my 'local' team (nicknamed 'The Canaries', who play in yellow and green incidentally...) every Saturday. wink



However, I also am rather partial to Brazilian music; the percussive rhythms, the smooth sound of the sung Brazilian Portuguese, and of course the energy of Sammba. I love late 60s/early 70s funk&soul music, and stumbled upon the band 'Funk Como Le Gusta' a few years ago. Arguably a little to 'commercial' in places...especially for my fussy tastes, but they have a great tight sound that fuses different styles together. I haven't listened to their music for a little while, so will have to load some of their tunes onto my iPod. wink

Of course, if you have any other Brazilian musical recommendations (funk, soul, or otherwise...), please do let me know!

Cheers,
James
x
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#2016651 - 01/18/13 11:05 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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Ahhh... You like a more 'sassy' rhythms... There's a lot of stuff unknow yet out there through our big Brazil... I'm studying more the Brazilian Classical Music, so I'm not hearing too much our Samba, or other smooth rhythms, but, you should hear a little of our Chorinho - it's really fantastic, and so much dancing... it was very popular in early 1900's years through 50's. Very hard to play... and the romantic Bossa, sometimes a little sassy, I have to confess, but, romantic most of the times... There's some kind of stuff that we just call MPB (Musica Popular Brasileira - Brazilian Popular Music) and have some chillin' artists and voices, but not so percussive, more of an acoustic guitar and voice.
I think you maybe like Nanny Soul, a black singer that have a really strong voice, and sound more funky. I love her stuff. Much of her soul in her music. Ed Motta, he's a brazilian master of rhodes. And of course, Hermeto Pascoal... as we call him here 'the brazilian wizard of music'. I hope you enjoy their music.
laugh
Hey, James, you have a really refined taste for music... I'm admired. laugh Really.


Edited by Pedro_Henrique (01/18/13 11:07 AM)
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#2016659 - 01/18/13 11:23 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Pedro_Henrique]
Aidan Offline
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Anyone noticed that the teaser ad now sports an "Ivory II VPC" logo. Would seem to suggest that this thing is going to ship with a special edition of Ivory II?
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#2016674 - 01/18/13 11:44 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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Now that is something! The (arguably) best sampled piano tweaked and tailored for a particular action. I am quite intrigued smile
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#2016681 - 01/18/13 11:49 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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"A virtual piano controller that plays out of the box". It could be my English but I understand the controller has built-in sound(s).
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#2016691 - 01/18/13 12:02 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Aidan Offline
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I think the strapline is more intended to imply that everything you need to start playing (presumably excluding the laptop itself!) is in the shipping box, i.e. the controller and the software.


Edited by Aidan (01/18/13 12:06 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification
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#2016698 - 01/18/13 12:17 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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And it looks like they will be shipping it with 4 softwares... One of those slots have the Ivory II... and there's 3 empty yet... so...
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#2016717 - 01/18/13 12:54 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
Temperament Offline
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I think such MIDI Controllers have a set of presets for Virtual Instruments and that is what You can see there. Probably calibrated velocity curves, defining MIDI feature scopes and such things.

I think they have a meaningful application instead of a miniature on board LCD display - this will be suggested by this arrangement on the teasers I guess.
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#2016720 - 01/18/13 01:02 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Aidan Offline
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It COULD just be custom velocity curves, I guess, but that would be very disappointing compared with an SE of Ivory (and perhaps three others), tailored to the controller. All will be revealed next week, I guess...
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#2016728 - 01/18/13 01:20 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Temperament]
dewster Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Aidan
I think the strapline is more intended to imply that everything you need to start playing (presumably excluding the laptop itself!) is in the shipping box, i.e. the controller and the software.

Baby steps. When will they put Ivory class sounds inside the DP?

Originally Posted By: Temperament
I think they have a meaningful application instead of a miniature on board LCD display - this will be suggested by this arrangement on the teasers I guess.

I'm really against the only access being via USB & PC. They need to make all parameters adjustable via the controller itself, however awkward that may be. Otherwise in 10 years or so when operating systems have been "improved" 2 or 3 times and USB has morphed into something not backwardly compatible, this thing will be an expensive, shiny brick. Kawai will support it in terms of drivers and such for a while, but for how long? And how good will those drivers be? Positioning this type of product tightly within the PC loop is a bad move IMO.

Industry needs to update the MIDI physical, electrical, and protocol interfaces in a non-proprietary way and keep it entirely independent of PC hardware & software.
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#2016731 - 01/18/13 01:25 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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I guess the other three slots are for Vintage D, Pianoteq and... Nord Piano laugh


Edited by CyberGene (01/18/13 01:26 PM)
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#2016779 - 01/18/13 03:18 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted By: dewster
Otherwise in 10 years or so when operating systems have been "improved" 2 or 3 times and USB has morphed into something not backwardly compatible, this thing will be an expensive, shiny brick.

Hopefully it also has a standard 5-pin DIN MIDI port, which will probably remain useful longer than I will.

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#2016784 - 01/18/13 03:30 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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I suspect it probably will have a 5-pin DIN port as well, but even if it doesn't, to prevent bricking, just don't throw away your last computer that you have before you buy your next one without USB (assuming that can't get an adaptor to convert from the post-USB interface to USB, which you probably will for another ten years).
If the worst came to the worst, you may not be able to upgrade the sounds on that last computer that you keep for the shiny controller. Big deal. I can't update my Kawai MP9000 that is now 11 years old. It still functions.

The other thing is that Kawai would be well aware of how rapidly things are changing, and may have taken that into account in the design. For example, they may have designed it in a modular way, such that the computer interface can easily be swapped out for something else.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (01/18/13 04:02 PM)

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#2016836 - 01/18/13 06:01 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
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Interfaces will always change, that's we're the adapter market thrives on. There are some slow changers/ long stayers however, like din5 MIDI. USB will last for quite sometime as well, be it V3, 4, 5...- but still downward compatible.

That's for the physical interfacing. If the firmware will still support the latest operating systems in the end , remains the question. E.g. some USB audio interfaces (even class-compliant) worked with 32bit OS, but not with 64bit versions. Some companies updated their firmware to support 64bit, others decided the product was too old, or they didn't sell enough new boxes, so they didn't post updates. What will happen to you controller in conjunction with computer hard- and software will probably depend on the future firmware updates. If they stop at a certain point , you may or may not have a problem.

To be honest, I wouldn't worry about it; it'll probably outlive your regular product exchange cycle by far !

Biggest question remains; will it ship with software and will that include a Virtual Kawai Grand in ultra high quality ?! Would be a great extra plus to a controller that already looks very promising.

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#2016849 - 01/18/13 06:35 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
gvfarns Offline
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It's hard for me to imagine a MIDI controller without a 5-pin connector (especially a high-end one, which is what this looks like). Of course, my imagination is not the limit of what's possible...

So far I've never really kept a digital piano long enough that it went out of date in the sense that is worrying to dewster. Too much of an itch for the latest and greatest. There's a pretty good chance I'll buy this VPC. Probably sell it again within 10 years, though, if history is any predictor.


Edited by gvfarns (01/18/13 06:39 PM)

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#2016852 - 01/18/13 06:41 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted By: JFP
Interfaces will always change, that's we're the adapter market thrives on. There are some slow changers/ long stayers however, like din5 MIDI.

No computer interface has lasted nearly as long as MIDI, so I doubt any will! It wasn't long ago that nobody could conceive of a computer without a parallel port or RS-232 serial compatibility. Firewire is on its way out, SCSI is long gone. Lots of old music gear (even not all that old) can no longer connect to any modern computer except via MIDI port, despite having one of those other interfaces as well. So it does seem to be a safety. Yes, there are sometimes adapters, but not everything works, and if it doesn't, there's no one who's going to do anything about it.

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#2016867 - 01/18/13 07:18 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Pedro_Henrique]
Kawai James Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Pedro_Henrique
Ahhh... You like a more 'sassy' rhythms... There's a lot of stuff unknow yet out there through our big Brazil... I'm studying more the Brazilian Classical Music, so I'm not hearing too much our Samba, or other smooth rhythms, but, you should hear a little of our Chorinho - it's really fantastic, and so much dancing... it was very popular in early 1900's years through 50's. Very hard to play... and the romantic Bossa, sometimes a little sassy, I have to confess, but, romantic most of the times... There's some kind of stuff that we just call MPB (Musica Popular Brasileira - Brazilian Popular Music) and have some chillin' artists and voices, but not so percussive, more of an acoustic guitar and voice.
I think you maybe like Nanny Soul, a black singer that have a really strong voice, and sound more funky. I love her stuff. Much of her soul in her music. Ed Motta, he's a brazilian master of rhodes. And of course, Hermeto Pascoal... as we call him here 'the brazilian wizard of music'. I hope you enjoy their music.


Wow, many thanks for the suggestions Pedro - I'm going to have to check out some of those artists this morning. wink

Cheers,
James
x
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#2016870 - 01/18/13 07:21 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
Kawai James Online   content
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Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Hopefully it also has a standard 5-pin DIN MIDI port...


How else would you control your favourite [red] semi-weighted board?

Cheers,
James
x
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#2016872 - 01/18/13 07:22 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Hopefully it also has a standard 5-pin DIN MIDI port...


How else would you control your favourite [red] semi-weighted board?

Cheers,
James
x

Mais oui!

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#2016878 - 01/18/13 07:32 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
Kawai James Online   content
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Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Hopefully it also has a standard 5-pin DIN MIDI port...


How else would you control your favourite [red] semi-weighted board?

Cheers,
James
x

Mais oui!


det är rätt! wink
_________________________
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#2016892 - 01/18/13 08:01 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Wow, many thanks for the suggestions Pedro - I'm going to have to check out some of those artists this morning. ;)x


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvDyVH-OIx8

A 'sample' of how she sings. This first one is an arrange of one of stevie wonder's music. And below there's one of the Brazilian songs she sings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvyrWIyZYPo&list=PLCD367792D1189F72&index=11
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#2016893 - 01/18/13 08:02 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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But well, coming back to the VPC... James, it will come with some software in the shipping box? laugh
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#2016894 - 01/18/13 08:04 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Pedro, I'm afraid I cannot reveal this information.

Kind regards,
James
x
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#2016904 - 01/18/13 08:20 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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Here's something from another thread:

Originally Posted By: Kawai James

Originally Posted By: maurus
...just imagine a licence agreement between a red and a black company, so we could get a new [cough] with the Nord sound engine... Ah, daydreaming...


Yes, that would be pretty cool - especially if newly sampled Kawai/Shigeru Kawai sounds were also part of the deal. wink


Maybe it has something to do with the Kawai VPC? smile Nord engine within the VPC? wink
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#2016905 - 01/18/13 08:21 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Melodialworks Music Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Pedro, I'm afraid I cannot reveal this information.

Kind regards,
James
x


Actually, you can - just not right now!
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#2016916 - 01/18/13 08:44 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Right. wink
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#2016947 - 01/18/13 09:59 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
dewster Online   content
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The thing is, I bought a large format Epson scanner ~10 years ago for the Historical Society I volunteer for, really nice even now, almost $3k USD so it was a lot of dough for a tiny non-profit to shell out. It has a SCSI interface - I didn't want to go that route as I knew SCSI was inching towards the door at the time, but USB was just coming on the scene and it was pretty slow and not super well supported. Now trying to do a computer refresh and I can't buy a motherboard that will take the ancient SCSI adapter card (PC bus evolution). The old computer is unstable so I want to ditch it but not sure what to do. An internal USB card was made for the scanner but it seems no one bought it and so support is nil.

My dad had a newish HP scanner that he "lost" going from XP to Win7 (no drivers).

I have a parallel port oscilloscope that I "lost" when my new motherboard "lost" the parallel port. I have several expensive FPGA programmers I can't use for the same reason (USB to parallel adapter doesn't work because timing is too inexact).

I bought a used Yamaha FS1r with much functionality controllable only via MIDI & PC, many of the programs wouldn't run in my newish OS. Had even worse issues with the much newer Roland JV-1010 (spartan UI via the front panel, zero support on from Roland on the PC side after their initial lame effort).

Have an Echo MIA sound card in my PC, I fully expect to "lose" it when MS drops support for XP, along with a boat load of software I really depend on.

PC hardware / software / bus / interface / driver support is a chain with too many weak links for one to hold onto a product intimately bound to it for any length of time, and I've been burned by it too many times. I just want to buy some decent keys with some decent sounds and stop the nonsense already.
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#2016949 - 01/18/13 10:06 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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dewster, fear not...it will have MIDI.
_________________________
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"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2016952 - 01/18/13 10:21 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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Dewster:
a) For the large format scanner, if you can't get the PC repaired, have you tried advertising a "Wanted" ad to buy another PC from that era?

b) How much did that HP scanner cost for your father's PC? If it's expensive, can you just leave it attached to a PC running XP, and treat that XP PC as part of the scanner?

c) Can you install a PCI parallel port adaptor? If not, if why can't you use old PCs with that equipment, if that equipment is important to you? Why should old equipment have to support new computers?

d) Re: the Echo MIA, again - if it's that important, keep an old PC for it. I have an M-Audio Delta 66 (PCI based), and I doubt that it's supported any more either. It's a nice card, and it's still in an old white-box running XP.
CORRECTION: Yes, my Delta IS still supported up to Win7, although I doubt whether I'll be buying any more desktop PCs with a PCI interface - I don't even know whether desktops still have PCI. smile
EDIT: Hang on, the MIA is supported up to Win7, according to this: http://echoaudio.com/pages/windows-drivers Is that correct? If so, why are you worried about XP support? If you can't upgrade the OS because of your applications, why can't you keep using the apps you have on XP, with a version of the XP driver that works with those apps?

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (01/18/13 11:43 PM)

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#2017040 - 01/19/13 01:36 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
dewster, fear not...it will have MIDI.

Now hold on, aren't you violating some kind of NAMM secrecy act? wink
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#2017041 - 01/19/13 01:56 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
dewster Online   content
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Originally Posted By: sullivang
Dewster:
a) For the large format scanner, if you can't get the PC repaired, have you tried advertising a "Wanted" ad to buy another PC from that era?

XP won't be patched for built-in MS security holes, etc. It's really not an option to run it at some point at a non-profit on a flaky PC after MS drops support. I do a bit of PC repair on the side and old PCs are the absolute worst and most expensive to maintain. Youngsters who use it kind of expect an update now and then.

Originally Posted By: sullivang
d) Re: the Echo MIA, again - if it's that important, keep an old PC for it. I have an M-Audio Delta 66 (PCI based), and I doubt that it's supported any more either. It's a nice card, and it's still in an old white-box running XP.
CORRECTION: Yes, my Delta IS still supported up to Win7, although I doubt whether I'll be buying any more desktop PCs with a PCI interface - I don't even know whether desktops still have PCI. smile
EDIT: Hang on, the MIA is supported up to Win7, according to this: http://echoaudio.com/pages/windows-drivers Is that correct?

Thanks for doing that research for me! It's been so long since they updated drivers I thought ECHO had gone out of business. Hmm, searching for "echo" at Sweetwater brings no hits for them which is weird. Three of their units at ZZounds, a couple more at B&H. Maybe not looking so good for support lasting longer than the hardware I own and paid $100 for (and it works really well). Anyway, there's tons of moldering but perfectly good HW in garbage dumps due to "improved" SW and orphaned products due to lack of driver support. I'm starting to really hate proprietary OSes and applications - too much churn on the user side and for what, profit? Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anti-advancement luddite.

Originally Posted By: sullivang
If so, why are you worried about XP support? If you can't upgrade the OS because of your applications, why can't you keep using the apps you have on XP, with a version of the XP driver that works with those apps?

Because it's networked. Next you'll be telling me to remove it from the network, which isn't really possible when thumb drives and such from other PCs which can be carrying viruses, malware, and other infections. MS products are a huge "kick me" sign for malware.
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#2017048 - 01/19/13 02:18 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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You're exactly right - I was indeed going to suggest removing the old PCs from the network, and to use thumb drives. smile (I'd still do it - I've never had a virus and I would take that risk. I agree that it's a bit much to ask of that non-profit organisation though)

Btw - I forgot to say initially - I do think it sux that the HP didn't release drivers for Win7. (especially if it's a high end scanner - less so if it's a cheap one)

Greg.

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#2017050 - 01/19/13 02:27 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
dewster Online   content
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Originally Posted By: sullivang
Btw - I forgot to say initially - I do think it sux that the HP didn't release drivers for Win7. (especially if it's a high end scanner - less so if it's a cheap one)

Greg.

I actually bought the Society a smaller format HP at the same time for higher resolution picture scans (the Epson only does 600dpi) and for negatives, etc. The HP cost slightly less, but was always a total dog. HP could not make a good driver at the time and I'm afraid to try them now from recent multifunction installation horror stories. My original HP Deskjet was quite the printing champ though, and my ancient HP calculator is still working, though all of the newer ones have failed - how the mighty have fallen. Those guys used to literally own the engineering world.
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#2017051 - 01/19/13 02:28 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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I see that XP is still supported for security updates, and will be up until 18-Apr-2014: http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?ln=en-gb&c2=1173

EDIT: Just saw your most recent reply. Ok. (nothing to add, but thanks for the info)

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (01/19/13 02:30 AM)

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#2017053 - 01/19/13 02:31 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
dewster Online   content
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Originally Posted By: sullivang
I see that XP is still supported for security updates, and will be up until 18-Apr-2014: http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?ln=en-gb&c2=1173

Greg.

Very true, and I'm really sorry if I gave anyone the impression otherwise. But the writing is on the wall and I'm feeling the pressure.
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#2017055 - 01/19/13 02:38 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
sullivang Offline
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Originally Posted By: dewster
I'm starting to really hate proprietary OSes and applications - too much churn on the user side and for what, profit? Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anti-advancement luddite.


I have a very different opinion here. I've been around computers my whole life (edit: well, most of my working life), and I remember the days of extremely expensive mini-computers and mainframes. I am continually AMAZED at how cheap everything has become now, and of course the performance is just mind boggling. I think the home computing & internet revolution has been absolutely fantastic, and we've been absolutely spoilt rotten.

One thing you have to take into account is the price savings when you buy a peripheral for a general purpose PC, as opposed to buying a standalone item that has all the software, keyboard, and screen inbuilt. For example, just imagine how much your FPGA programmers would have cost if they were like that. Look on the bright side as well.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (01/19/13 05:30 AM)

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#2017083 - 01/19/13 05:07 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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Spammers! laugh
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#2017086 - 01/19/13 05:36 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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Oh James, you're letting me curious about everything. LOL
But, you're right, you're letting us have a nice surprise. Well, at least, I'm waiting for a really nice surprise. laugh
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#2017102 - 01/19/13 06:44 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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I have zoomed in on the Ivory II label and I am able to somehow recognize the word "Approved" in front of the "VPC 1", however there are some words beneath which are more difficult to see. Maybe Kawai something... KawaiGrand?
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#2017105 - 01/19/13 06:49 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
mabraman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Pedro, I must confess that I am a big football fan!

My home town is Norwich, and I still follow my 'local' team (nicknamed 'The Canaries', who play in yellow and green incidentally...) every Saturday. wink



However, I also am rather partial to Brazilian music; the percussive rhythms, the smooth sound of the sung Brazilian Portuguese, and of course the energy of Sammba. I love late 60s/early 70s funk&soul music, and stumbled upon the band 'Funk Como Le Gusta' a few years ago. Arguably a little to 'commercial' in places...especially for my fussy tastes, but they have a great tight sound that fuses different styles together. I haven't listened to their music for a little while, so will have to load some of their tunes onto my iPod. wink

Of course, if you have any other Brazilian musical recommendations (funk, soul, or otherwise...), please do let me know!

Cheers,
James
x

WAY OFF TOPIC, SORRY
So you are english and from Norwich!! Funny, my hometown team is fighting with yours about some spanish forward (Aspas) if I'm not wrong.

About brazilian music, that I love: browse Trattore Records, a company which holds many independent producers together. This is the most representative of current brazillian music of any genre. And looking for some soul/funk blended with bossa, samba or whatever root music, you'll find a lot there.
I've made a good spotify list if you'd like.
Names: Alexandre Grooves, The Sapotones, Bojo, Lenine, Osmar Milito, Maniva, Tania Maria...
Brazil is a world in itself. But that's just for music. Football is ours smile
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#2017116 - 01/19/13 07:30 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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mabraman, yep I'm from Norwich - pride of Anglia. wink
Your hometown club...Reading? So you're not a Spaniard then?
I just looked up Aspas - plays for Celta Vigo, right? Might be worth a punt.

Thank you for the music recommendations too - wow lots more names to check out, however right now I'm supposed to be planning a Breakestra-style funk/soul mash-up ahead of a band practise tomorrow morning.

Cheers,
James
x
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#2017117 - 01/19/13 07:34 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
mabraman Offline
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Uuups, then it's Reading and not Norwich who wants Aspas. Sorry. And yes, I'm a spaniard (hard to be proud of, these times). End of my off-topic here.
By the way, that VPC looks terrific!
I want one of those when I'm grown smile


Edited by mabraman (01/19/13 07:37 AM)
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#2017151 - 01/19/13 09:39 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
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@Dewster:

WIFI ?? No dongles required. It proofed downward compatible so far (a,b,g,n,...)

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#2017164 - 01/19/13 10:13 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: mabraman]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
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Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 74
Loc: Uberaba, Minas Gerais, Brazil
Originally Posted By: mabraman
Brazil is a world in itself. But that's just for music. Football is ours smile


OFF TOPIC... laugh

I disagree... there's a lot of good things on football... really nice ones. And our food is really really nice. Like Japanese too, but prefer Brazilian. laugh Did you came here?
And in music, you have a point... good musicians too. Do you listen to Maria Rita, Elis Regina, Torquato Neto & Zimbo Trio, Guilherme Arantes, Ivan Lins? They're really good too. I really love love love Ivan Lins's music...


Edited by Pedro_Henrique (01/19/13 10:16 AM)
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#2017513 - 01/19/13 08:26 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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(sorry - more spamming, but...)

Despite the fact that I feel good how home computing has evolved, my eyebrows are definitely in the "raised" position regarding DPs, and I think what Dewster has been saying all along has a lot of substance.

I also am not saying that everything is perfect in home computing either - Microsoft & Apple execs could probably price stuff lower and drive around in Boxters instead of 911's no doubt. ;^) However, I do think things are pretty fantastic nevertheless.

Greg.

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#2017525 - 01/19/13 08:45 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
voxpops Offline
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Originally Posted By: dewster
When will they put Ivory class sounds inside the DP?

This may be the "proving ground." Having seen where Korg (and maybe Yamaha - we'll know this week) is going, Kawai may be testing out new high-end software, prior to building it into future DPs. It presumably takes a lot of effort to produce a stable and well-integrated multi-gigabyte DP, and possibly, at this stage, this was the only way to produce something competitive. It could well be a question of "watch this space."
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#2017681 - 01/20/13 06:24 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
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High-end controller (in terms of keybed) and the sample set in all its glory ported over to a third party licensed software bundle (Ivory in this case, others did it with Kontakt player). Nice job.

Think this will be where it's going anyway in the future, build in stuff will eventually stay too far behind, be too slow to continuously update and to expensive to develop. I think Korg Kronos and such may even be the last efforts in that all-in-one direction and after perhaps a few more updated models be phased out in favor of the 'separate hardware / software ' approach . If cleverly done of course and there is still a lot of progress to be made in terms of user experience, ease of use and setup, reliability etc. If Kawai brings out a hard- software package as complete solution, they jump ahead and skip the temporary approach some others have chosen with rewritable flash rom.

We'll see...

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#2017720 - 01/20/13 08:46 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
dewster Online   content
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Originally Posted By: JFP
Think this will be where it's going anyway in the future, build in stuff will eventually stay too far behind, be too slow to continuously update and to expensive to develop.

Computing costs are way down these days, particularly in the embedded spaced, so that really isn't much of an issue anymore.

There's no practical reason I can think of that keeps Kawai and Ivory from getting together and making a fabulous DP. Plenty of boneheaded management reasons I can think of though.
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#2017762 - 01/20/13 10:44 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
KLSinCT Online   content
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Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: JFP
Think this will be where it's going anyway in the future, build in stuff will eventually stay too far behind, be too slow to continuously update and to expensive to develop.

Computing costs are way down these days, particularly in the embedded spaced, so that really isn't much of an issue anymore.

There's no practical reason I can think of that keeps Kawai and Ivory from getting together and making a fabulous DP. Plenty of boneheaded management reasons I can think of though.


+1

K.
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#2017808 - 01/20/13 12:38 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
shooby Offline
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I've been waiting for something like this for a long time, having tried all the usual suspects that claim to have a "piano like" action! I tried an MP10 last year and was blown away by it. I was about to order one when I read Kawai James hint in another thread about controllers that we should "wait". So I have been ever since... roll on NAMM I say!

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#2017924 - 01/20/13 04:11 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: shooby]
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Originally Posted By: shooby
I tried an MP10 last year and was blown away by it. I was about to order one when I read Kawai James hint in another thread about controllers that we should "wait". So I have been ever since... roll on NAMM I say!


Ooops. Did I say that?
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#2018177 - 01/21/13 06:00 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Temperament Offline
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Now I can see a Pianoteq Icon next to Ivory II on the teaser.

Is it new, then we should see some more to come probably ...

Galaxy? Kawai EX?

What a nice puzzle game we all let ourselves infected with...

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#2018181 - 01/21/13 06:29 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Acca Offline
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So, how soon before we can get the announcements? Do they tend to do press releases a day before NAMM opens or right on the first morning of the conference? Or do they trickle it throughout the event?

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#2018186 - 01/21/13 06:42 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Temperament, I'm glad you're enjoying the teasers. ;p

But it makes a refreshing change compared to Kawai's usual silence, wouldn't you say?

Acca, the official announcement is planned for NAMM. I'm not entirely sure exactly what time/date this will happen, but I hope to have the website up and running in time for the show opening. Press releases have already been sent out to various different news outlets, although with so many new products being released from a number of companies, there's no guarantee that the information will be selected for coverage.

In the meantime, I set up a Facebook page at www.facebook.com/kawaivpc , and intend to post NAMM-related updates as and when they happen.

Cheers,
James
x
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#2018212 - 01/21/13 08:05 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
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Regardless what the precise outcome will be in terms of

1) embedded software (build-in mini PC),
2) included software,
3) included sample sets (Kawai EX?)
4) or merely extended integrated support for the popular software Piano's around

I applaud the direction Kawai is taking with this approach. It is long due and it seems one company finally decided to listen (instead of ignore) the many pleads around for a more modern implementation of the idea of a digital piano. Fixed build-in (tiny) rompler configurations should really become a blast from the past and a more open highly flexible software based approach is sooo much more 2013, be it embedded or in terms of carefully designed software packages and/or third party support. Piano companies can still sell many units of the core of its products where they are the best; good hardware (keys, cabinet, speaker/soundboard system).

Anyway, I'm repeating myself. Just am happy something interesting comes up...

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#2018227 - 01/21/13 08:41 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
gvfarns Offline
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Yes, Kawai is clearly listening to customers. People have been begging here for a good MIDI controller for years and no one has provided it. Hopefully this will be the answer.

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#2018269 - 01/21/13 10:06 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nigeth Offline
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Hey I registered just to ask a question in this thread laugh

I have a rather silly concern regarding controllers of any kind. The wires.

So my question would be if the controller is "standard" in that regard, i.e it's a controller that is interfaced via midi to a PC running some sort of DAW software or if it is a little bit more clever.

The reason is that I really don't like the mess of wires the traditional setup causes.

You have midi from the controller to the PC. You have two power bricks or power leads, you have to route the sound from the PC back to where the controller is so you need a sound interface or preamp etc.

This usually discourages me from using a controller + module or controller + DAW on PC setup because I'd rather use it all in one board than clutter my living space with all of that wiring.

Can you tell me anything regarding that aspect?

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#2018293 - 01/21/13 10:36 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Nigeth]
Kawai James Online   content
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Hi Nigeth,

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
Can you tell me anything regarding that aspect?


Well, outputting sound from your PC or Mac will always require wires of some kind.
However, I can tell you that connecting the VPC to your computer shouldn't require to many additional cables.

Cheers,
James
x
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#2018301 - 01/21/13 10:51 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Nigeth]
dewster Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Nigeth
You have midi from the controller to the PC. You have two power bricks or power leads, you have to route the sound from the PC back to where the controller is so you need a sound interface or preamp etc.

This usually discourages me from using a controller + module or controller + DAW on PC setup because I'd rather use it all in one board than clutter my living space with all of that wiring.

And decent built-in speakers could keep one from adding yet more wires to the pile on the floor, not to mention figuring out where to put the speakers. The wiring is a huge point of failure as well (why is the left speaker suddenly buzzing?).

But beyond the rat's nest of wires and power bricks, controlling basic things like volume, voice selection, in-line effects, transpose, velocity filtering, etc. is often much simpler with an all-in-one unit. I've already tried the bits and pieces approach in our studio and it didn't work very well, at least for our uses. Many musicians are fairly non-tech savvy, and simply can't cope with a highly complex setup.

The industry may get around to our needs one of these years. It's entirely within the realm of doable and for a reasonable price right now. But don't hold your breath, continental drift moves faster.
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#2018318 - 01/21/13 11:08 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Nigeth Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Hi Nigeth,
However, I can tell you that connecting the VPC to your computer shouldn't require to many additional cables.


That's not exactly the point I was trying to make. That a MIDI connection requires, well, a MIDI connection cable is fairly obvious laugh.

I had hoped for something more though. Going the MIDI controller plus external device route adds a fair amount of clutter and wiring you'd simply not need if you use a single board for that.

You need the midi connection

You need access to your PC to control the setup

You need to route the audio back to where you're playing

You can no longer use the headphone jack since you usually can't route audio back to the device that's the midi controller.

If you route the audio back to the monitors you need a dedicated sound interface/preamp combo because the line outs are usually not powerful/too lo fidelity for that.

You have to buy and lay all of those wires

etc.

There's also the usability aspect since you now have to control most aspects of your sound via PC.

According to the screens the controller is not exactly built for placing equipment on top of it since the top surface is curved.

If it's "just" a great key action in a "pretty box" then it's probably not for me.

I assume that some way down the road the action in the VPC will be available in one of the MP6/MP10 successors then I'd have everything plus the ability to use builtins and reduce clutter.

Thanks for your reply, though.

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#2018327 - 01/21/13 11:23 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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My wild guess is that there's some flash-memory based VST player (why not a whole PC, hence the play on words VPC) in the VPC. You use the laptop to only upload the corresponding VST to the VPC and make some settings. That's why the VST needs to be "approved for Kawai VPC" - to support panel buttons, program changes, etc without a PC screen and a mouse. This way you have a digital piano with interchangeable sounds. Once you buy the VST (Pianoteq, Ivory, etc.) and upload it to the VPC, you'll have a standalone unit which you only power up and play. That's what "out of the box" means.

I'd bet few beers on this wink


Edited by CyberGene (01/21/13 11:33 AM)
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#2018337 - 01/21/13 11:33 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nigeth Offline
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Now that on the other hand would be exactly what I'd be looking for. So I hope your guess is spot on.

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#2018341 - 01/21/13 11:37 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
dmd Offline
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Originally Posted By: CyberGene
This way you have a digital piano with interchangeable sounds. Once you buy the VST (Pianoteq, Ivory, etc.) and upload it to the VPC, you'll have a standalone unit which you only power up and play. That's what "out of the box" means.

I'd bet few beers on this wink



Now, that might get me back into the VST game.

The "rats nest" of wires needed presently is very definitely a turnoff.
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#2018342 - 01/21/13 11:38 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
kurtie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James

However, I can tell you that connecting the VPC to your computer shouldn't require to many additional cables.


My guess is that only a USB cable is needed to fully use VPC. Computer will generate sound and in many setups it will already be connected to speakers or sound system. Controller will be powered through USB, no need to plug it to a socket wall (anyway, USB devices can be powered though wall sockets using the proper adapter).

I hope it will probably also include MIDI connections for optionally use it through MIDI interface. For a pure MIDI controller, anything else is needed. No need for audio input or outputs.

At least MIDI controllers I had in the past worked this way, but maybe this will be different, besides the action it sports that is the main selling point (at least for me). Just keep it at a reasonable price and you may have a winner in your hands. Not a cup of tea for everybody, but definitely it is for me, if it works as I imagine it.

Regards,
Kurt.-

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#2018360 - 01/21/13 12:03 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
gvfarns Offline
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That would be great if it were powered by USB so only one cable had to run out of the controller. Using a laptop the whole setup wouldn't require an outlet (if you are using headphones).

I wonder, is it technically possible to run audio over USB from the computer back to the VPC in the same cable and have it come out of speakers built into the VPC? I don't think this is likely in the VPC, but if a controller had an audio interface and speakers built into it, it seems like in principle you could run this whole thing with just a laptop and the keyboard with one USB cable and nothing else.

Most likely the VPC will not have speakers, which makes sense. That would make the question moot. I'm just thinking out loud here.


Edited by gvfarns (01/21/13 12:04 PM)

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#2018363 - 01/21/13 12:06 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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I was also thinking about an audio interface built into the VPC but then why should you connect your speakers to the VPC instead of to your laptop's audio card? It won't even save you a cable. It'll make sense only if you have speakers in the VPC.
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#2018379 - 01/21/13 12:27 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: gvfarns]
kurtie Offline
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Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I wonder, is it technically possible to run audio over USB from the computer back to the VPC in the same cable and have it come out of speakers built into the VPC? I don't think this is likely in the VPC, but if a controller had an audio interface and speakers built into it, it seems like in principle you could run this whole thing with just a laptop and the keyboard with one USB cable and nothing else.


A low latency audio interface integrated into the controller? Mmmm... It makes sense specially for a laptop setup (audio intefaces in laptops aren't usually great). But I think drivers will be needed for using the audio interface (preferably ASIO for Windows... and there are other OSes), and not sure if Kawai has the expertise to develop and maintain the hardware and software needed for that... unless it is an already existing third party audio interface.

I don't know if it is feasible... but the idea is interesting at first look.

On a second look, I think it adds too much complexity (drivers). Without it the VPC is a trouble free plug & play hardware. And if needed, an external USB audio interface can be used anytime.

We'll see soon... smile

Regards,
Kurt.-

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#2018408 - 01/21/13 01:23 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
dewster Online   content
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Originally Posted By: CyberGene
My wild guess is that there's some flash-memory based VST player (why not a whole PC, hence the play on words VPC) in the VPC. You use the laptop to only upload the corresponding VST to the VPC and make some settings. That's why the VST needs to be "approved for Kawai VPC" - to support panel buttons, program changes, etc without a PC screen and a mouse. This way you have a digital piano with interchangeable sounds. Once you buy the VST (Pianoteq, Ivory, etc.) and upload it to the VPC, you'll have a standalone unit which you only power up and play. That's what "out of the box" means.

I'd bet few beers on this wink

I'd bet a few beers VPC = "Virtual Piano Controller" because it means just that: it's a USB powered MIDI controller with a funky curved top that will get scratched up by the bottom of your laptop skating around and you'll have difficulty setting speakers on and nothing else. The "approved" thing is likely just some kind of pre worked out software driver settings / interface to 3rd part PC software products. Though I would love to be wrong.

Personally, I don't want a PC or an i-anything anywhere near my DP. It has to have fantastic sounds built-in, and it should be able to record & play MIDI files and render them to WAV on a USB thumb drive. Music rest, decent built-in speakers, lightish weight, smallish practical form factor, straightforward UI, and quality 3 pedal unit would be big pluses. Why does the industry find this particular configuration so abhorrent?

It's hard for me not to see the VPC (if it is what I imagine it is) as a throwing-in-the-towel move - they're completely giving up on trying to put recording quality sounds in a DP. If so, it's a bad omen for the short term.
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#2018415 - 01/21/13 01:27 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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Yes, it should be feasible to put the audio interface in the controller, and use a single USB cable. M-Audio have, or at least had some controllers that had this - I can't see any on their web site any more. Here's the user manual for one though - the M-Audio Ozone

I recall James saying some time ago that the Yamaha Motif(?) also has this.

Greg.

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#2018420 - 01/21/13 01:33 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: kurtie]
Temperament Offline
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Quote:
A low latency audio interface integrated into the controller?
It does make sense in many ways for me too, I speculated about such a solution too.
A not integrated external USB audio interface with not only a low latency but high audio quality specification is awailable for 100-200$ - I think USB can easily keep up sound quality wise with high end DPs (my EMU 0404 USB does). An integrated solution would imply production costs of a fraction of that price. And if sound quality is HiFi, there is no much room left for improvement for normal use. If You need more (special surround e.g.), you can go with MIDI and own interface.

Other than selection sound system in general (studio monitor boxes, subwoofer), there are many more aspects and compromises and variability of needs where the decision should be left to customers. (Quality, price, ambient room and apropriate power, subwoofer conf, etc.)

The only things which are on the negative list: the convenience of the all-in-one package with a DP and such special achievements than a soundBoard of a CA95. You cannot have all at once - just as one cannot play violine solo on an acoustic grand as well.
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#2018431 - 01/21/13 01:53 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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Ah, here's the M-Audio board I was really thinking of - the Pro Keys Sono 88. User manual: http://www.m-audio.com/images/global/manuals/080905_PKS88_UG_EN01.pdf

I haven't looked at the back panel, but given that it only came with one USB cable, I think it's safe to assume that it only needs one USB cable for everything.

Not in production any more though, apparently.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (01/21/13 01:54 PM)

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#2018461 - 01/21/13 02:59 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
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Originally Posted By: dewster
It's hard for me not to see the VPC (if it is what I imagine it is) as a throwing-in-the-towel move - they're completely giving up on trying to put recording quality sounds in a DP. If so, it's a bad omen for the short term.


I see it differently. There is a genuine demand for a great key action from people who already have sounds they are happy with (ie, software). The key action can therefore be bought more cheaply by the consumer if there isn't a whole load of sounds and the required associated technology stuffed in there too. And the key action only needs to be bought once.

I reckon it is just Kawai responding to what (it hopes) is a suppressed demand out there for such a thing.
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#2018463 - 01/21/13 03:10 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
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I read James remarks (not too many wires required) as:

- USB2 or 3 (better) connection to your computer for MIDI and (!) audio. The VPC then has balanced , unbalanced high quality outputs to connect to your speaker setup.

- Drives for audio and USB midi are class-complaint, meaning no driver issues / continuous updates required.

If that is the case - I'm happy.

> Build-in audio out from laptops = crap in comparison to a good audio interface and usually only comes with mini-jack connectors.
> Second problem is the ground loop you may get when connecting the computer through USB to your DP (for MIDI) and simultaneously hook up an audio path.

Now it's : place your laptop on your controller, connect USB cable, DONE - off you go...

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#2018480 - 01/21/13 03:32 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
gvfarns Offline
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I think we can expect class compliance. Built in audio interface and speakers...I still think that's a pipe dream. I may be wrong.

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#2018488 - 01/21/13 03:47 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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I don't believe it will have speakers. With that in mind, an audio interface is quite unlikely.

Realistically, I believe this will be a regular MIDI controller with some software provided for tweaking the touch curve as is shown on the laptop screen. And that's it. Digital piano manufacturers have clearly shown their strategy of avoiding revolutionary products. They only provide tiny bits of improvement with each new model. And that has been proven to work for the last few decades of digital pianos.
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#2018501 - 01/21/13 04:24 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
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Well...if you can hook up your laptop with one cable, without ANY additional gear and wiring and go HQ straight out of the DP to your monitor set, that is a great +++. Been on my list for a long time.

I thought a step in that direction would be the ES7 with it's audio input, but at that time didn't realize it didn't provide a real state of the art audio IN and proper volume/balance control. That meant workarounds and (again) extra boxes and wiring. Perhaps the MP10 audio IN , combined with it's balanced outs would have done a better job in that respect, but it may miss the separate volume control for audio in too - I don't know. Not to blame any of these products, but to emphasize that they don't offer a simple and HQ audio integration. BTW I don't care if it doesn't have build-in speakers anymore - I found I use them less and less anyway, having good monitors and good heaphones.

So a high end keybed + BU audio-interface/routing is a nice minimal setup, especially when you can place your computer on top within easy reach. MP6 couldn't do that, ES7 couldn't do that, the MP10 neither, so the VPC is a good concept in that direction. Hope it's got it all (USB audio/midi + audio out integration). If not, it still looks like a great no frills piano-keybed for your virtual instrument setup.

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#2018777 - 01/22/13 03:35 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
HisKidd Offline
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Here's my take on the K-VPC. The "approved" icons for Ivory II and for Pianoteq are for the VPC's operating system. Normally, you would have to purchase ILock for Ivory, and the Pianoteq virtual piano has its on operating system. I'm guessing they are giving Kawai permission to use the VPC's onboard software to run these two virual pianos. The software may or may not be included with the board. James stated that this would cost less than an MP10. That leads me to believe virtual piano software is included. Other than the key action mechanism, a controller should not be that expensive to produce. I'm guessing RM3 and the 3 sensor mechanism.

Now here's the question that's a deal maker. Will Nord's library also be available? If that is the case, we move from uploading software from CD's to downloading from the internet directly to Nord boards and the K-VPC. You can see why that would be a game-changer. Unlimited possibilities for future new virtuals. Let's hope that one of those two remaining logos is Nord. I'd opt for Galaxy Vintage D for the fourth. Can't wait for Thusday!!!!
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#2018789 - 01/22/13 03:59 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: EssBrace]
Temperament Offline
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Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: dewster
It's hard for me not to see the VPC (if it is what I imagine it is) as a throwing-in-the-towel move - they're completely giving up on trying to put recording quality sounds in a DP. If so, it's a bad omen for the short term.
I see it differently. There is a genuine demand for a great key action from people who already have sounds they are happy with (ie, software). The key action can therefore be bought more cheaply by the consumer if there isn't a whole load of sounds and the required associated technology stuffed in there too. And the key action only needs to be bought once.

I reckon it is just Kawai responding to what (it hopes) is a suppressed demand out there for such a thing.

++1 And I think if it is an (improved, e.g. be able play pp. off the jack) GF, than it would replace the CA13 - which is a more genuine offering then as to get a top notch action in a sub-standard cabinet package (boxes + castrated feature set).
I could buy this (even if the action is the GH-II), and I could bet that the successor of CA95 (or old CA-111) must have all the goodies (but portability) of VPC in cabinet format + the sound board + decent built-in boxes. I could upgrade then if will because I can sell the VPC for its portability and with minimal loss.

By the way, something to the wish list (of customer): better integrated portable slabs (with key cover and stand with monitor support).

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#2018796 - 01/22/13 04:14 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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I don't know whether I'd want a key cover. In fact, I'm not sure I even want that (beautiful, and authentic) fall-board behind the keys, because when I play octaves up on the black notes, my fingers seem to often go behind the back of the keys. Probably lousy technique I guess.

Greg.

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#2018800 - 01/22/13 04:42 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: HisKidd]
EssBrace Offline
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Originally Posted By: HisKidd
Let's hope that one of those two remaining logos is Nord.


I don't think I even dare hope that could be the case. But it's a nice thought!
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#2018802 - 01/22/13 04:49 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Temperament, the CA111 was replaced by the CS9.

Kind regards,
James
x
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#2018803 - 01/22/13 04:51 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: HisKidd]
Temperament Offline
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HisKidd, many assumtions. "Approved" is probably nothing more than "Windows XX compliant" label on PCs and Laptops.

These different SW-s should run on HW/SW outside of a DP!
What I could imagine: some very limited light editions of these instrument packages to be able to start with out of the box and to use them as a promo package for demo purposes for a serious upgrade decision.

Compatibility issues with updates (both VSTi and OS) are issues with OS editions and will be delegated to the external computer.

It would be interesting to be able to eliminate the need of iLok due to cooperation, and to see how Nord will be part of the game...

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#2018806 - 01/22/13 04:58 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
Temperament Offline
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Hi, Greg,

I just hate dust. And the fuss with dust cover draperies.
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#2018809 - 01/22/13 05:08 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Dr Popper Offline
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God you folks are letting your imaginations run away with you .... It's a 88 key controller keyboard with one of the best actions if not THE best action in the business ... Speakers, audio interfaces, software .... Why complicate it ? I see my NAMM prediction has come true before NAMM has even opened ... As soon as something is announced there is someone bitching about what it isn't instead of what it is ....
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#2018813 - 01/22/13 05:28 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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Temperament: Of course, if it's well out of the way, no problems - it would be a nice touch. I like to use a large drape that is very quick & easy to pull over the keyboard, but the aesthetics aren't good. (the Kawai MP9000 came with a large sheet of foamy stuff that worked fine)

Greg.

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#2018815 - 01/22/13 05:38 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Dr Popper]
Kawai James Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
As soon as something is announced there is someone bitching about what it isn't instead of what it is ....


Tell me about it...although I'm still p*ssed that the new Casio doesn't have a proper drinks holder.
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#2018817 - 01/22/13 05:43 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nigeth Offline
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Yeah, why complicate it? So just put the action into a successor of the MP10 and be done with all of the wires and clutter.

If I understand James correctly this is narrowly targeted to people that want a great piano action in some sort of controller format. Probably because most controller keyboards are compromises so that you can also play synths, organs well.

Most of those people though claim that they want 'the best action' combined with the best sounds/samples available.

I'd rather this was a single device than just the standard controller setup because a controller setup adds to the clutter and detracts from the 'playing experience' the combination of great sounds and great action should offer due to the additional complexities.

So if the action is truly that great I'd probably be tempted to combine it with a Nord Stage 2 instead of a PC because I always wanted a Nord but not with the Fatar action.

The reason many people lean towards a DAW on a PC is because there's usually two lines of products out there.

1. The: 'it has a great action but sub par sounds (or too few sounds) so I cave in and wire it to a PC instead' kind of product

2. The 'this sounds great but the action is quite horrible for piano playing' kind of product.

The MP10 is squarely in category 1 the Nord squarely in 2.

A Nord Stage or heck even a Kronos X with the Kawai MP 10 action (or the even better actions in the digital pianos) would be an amazing instrument.

My hope was that this would be a product that bridges the gap between 1. and 2. but I suppose it doesn't.

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#2018820 - 01/22/13 06:10 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
thomsurf Offline
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Third box in the VPC teaser is filled out. Too bad I can't read what it says! Something 'Galaxy' Vintage....
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#2018821 - 01/22/13 06:17 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Gigantoad Offline
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I thought what we really wanted was a real grand action midi controller? But I guess this is better than nothing. cool

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#2018824 - 01/22/13 06:20 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nigeth Offline
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They are all sample libraries/DAWs with the focus on faithful reproduction of piano sounds.

The first one is Synthogy with Ivory II
The second one is Pianoteq with I suppose Pianoteq 4
The third is Galaxy Instruments propably with their vintage piano sets (Vintage D for example)

So the fourth is probably a fourth company I suppose something along the lines of imperfect samples.

So it seems like this is just a list of which of the companies offer sample sets that are compatible with/were approved by Kawai for the VPC.

I wonder why they even mention that since it most probably is a midi controller so any sample set should work

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#2018825 - 01/22/13 06:27 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
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"As soon as something is announced there is someone bitching about what it isn't instead of what it is ...."

Uhm, yes ...but as long as it isn't officially out yet and the exact specs remain unknown, a little daydreaming doesn't hurt - does it ? And the way Kawai introduces the VPC by using teasers , calls for speculation.

As I said , if it's 'only' a very good keybed with some extra support for third party software piano's , thats' already a great product! Anything that's added from the wish / daydream list is even better...

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#2018826 - 01/22/13 06:33 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Temperament Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
As soon as something is announced there is someone bitching about what it isn't instead of what it is ....
Tell me about it...although I'm still p*ssed that the new Casio doesn't have a proper drinks holder.
I was thinking about loud, what I would need and concluded, if a perfect slab had a cover and a stand, there were little need for me personally to go for a cabinet now. (In other words VPC is almost that what I would need.) Or are we restricted here to praise only the special products just announced?

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#2018829 - 01/22/13 06:44 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Nigeth]
Temperament Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nigeth
I wonder why they even mention that since it most probably is a midi controller so any sample set should work

And any sample set should work with any controller, but to get optimal use the controller should provide all the signals the SW can make use of (MIDI extensions as enhanced velocity resolution? evtl.aftertouch like for PT clavichord? optimised presets as for velocities? three sensor use with repetitions). This could be the real meaning. And that all of it has tested extensively together. And if a sound interface is integrated, all the driver are preset and functioning out of the box.

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#2018835 - 01/22/13 07:00 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Temperament Offline
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Now we have Galaxy's "Vintage D" as the third Icon in the teaser!

Note: Not all of the Galaxy instruments (as is the case with the Ivory II collection).


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#2018836 - 01/22/13 07:04 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Dr Popper Offline
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I give up ..... James please put them out of their misery
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#2018837 - 01/22/13 07:12 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Dr Popper]
Temperament Offline
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I can't feel my misery, if you have meant my last remark, it was nothing negative.

We could expect as a conclusion that these SWs maybe very probably part of the package in a light or promo edition, because if it should mean only that VPC is tested together with the instruments, I can't see why the other Galaxies are not there. They all have the same technology, VPC will function just as well with them.

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#2018838 - 01/22/13 07:15 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Temperament]
sullivang Offline
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Originally Posted By: Temperament
three sensor use with repetitions).


Good point - I still haven't heard of a DAW that faithfully records the tri-sensor MIDI sequence, but I haven't done an exhaustive search. (and it was a long time ago that I tested it, too) What seems to happen is that the partial-repeats are translated into normal repeats, which probably sounds the same in most situations, but it would still be nice if it recorded it properly. Pianoteq's MIDI recorder works ok, but that's not a DAW - it's just a raw MIDI recorder.

Greg.

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#2018845 - 01/22/13 08:07 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted By: sullivang
Good point - I still haven't heard of a DAW that faithfully records the tri-sensor MIDI sequence, but I haven't done an exhaustive search. (and it was a long time ago that I tested it, too) What seems to happen is that the partial-repeats are translated into normal repeats, which probably sounds the same in most situations, but it would still be nice if it recorded it properly.

I don't understand why it should make any difference. What the third sensor lets you do is send another Note On command on a given note without having to first send a Note Off command, which should be recordable by any MIDI sequencer. It also lets you retrigger a note without lifting your finger as high, but that's strictly a physical issue and wouldn't have an impact on MIDI data.

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#2018863 - 01/22/13 08:44 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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Anotherscott: Theoretically, it could make a difference to how the repetitions sound, because once the repetitions are translated into normal Note-On/Note-Off pairs, that becomes a damped sequence of notes. Partial repeats that make use of the middle(third) sensor are UN-damped, which of course mimicks the behaviour of a real grand piano. E.g, three partial repeats on a tri-sensor action will send the MIDI sequence:
Note-On,Note-On,Note-On,Note-Off,Note-Off,Note-Off.

The two DAWs that I tried translate this to:
Note-On,Note-Off,Note-On,Note-Off,Note-On,Note-Off.

The reason undamped notes could sound different is because a hammer repeatedly striking strings that are already in motion produces subtle timbral changes from note to note.

Aside from any audible change, though, I just don't like the thought of information being lost from the performance, however slight.

Greg.

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#2018864 - 01/22/13 08:44 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Nigeth]
anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nigeth
Yeah, why complicate it? So just put the action into a successor of the MP10 and be done with all of the wires and clutter.

A. This is cheaper.

B. Apart from Crumar, no one has yet put the quality of the best computer pianos into a DP; or has found a way to do it any more cost effectively than by supplying you with the keyboard and letting you run the software on cheap commodity hardware, which, in fact, you probably already own, making it effectively free.

C. No matter how wonderful Kawai's next piano sound will be, I guarantee someone will like something else better, and will wish they could just buy a Kawai action and use it to trigger the piano sound they really want, without having to pay for the rest of the electronics in the Kawai.

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
If I understand James correctly this is narrowly targeted to people that want a great piano action in some sort of controller format. Probably because most controller keyboards are compromises so that you can also play synths, organs well.

More precisely, because none of the actions piano players really like are available in lower cost versions without sounds built in, sounds that many people find unnecessary if they are connecting their board to a computer anyway. Yamaha makes no weighted controllers. Roland's use their bottom of the line action. Korg makes none. Before this, Kawai made none. Studiologic and Doepfer use Fatar actions that not everyone likes.

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
Most of those people though claim that they want 'the best action' combined with the best sounds/samples available.

I'd rather this was a single device

Separating the two allows everyone to create their ideal combination, but as I said above, there just aren't many piano controller keyboards to choose from, so people often feel they are "wasting money" buying keyboards with sounds they don't intend to use. But while you're correct that people want the best action combined with the best sound, people don't agree about what either of those things are. Even if there was a board that everyone agreed had the ideal action, they would not agree on which was the best sound, so you'd still need a mechanism for selecting the sound separately. Heck, you can walk into a store that sells grand pianos, and people won't agree about which sounds or feels best!

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
So if the action is truly that great I'd probably be tempted to combine it with a Nord Stage 2 instead of a PC because I always wanted a Nord but not with the Fatar action.

An action you like compared with an unweighed NS2 could be a great combo. And would continue to be so even if there were sounds in the Kawai, as there is no guarantee you would like them better than what's in the Nord anyway.

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
The reason many people lean towards a DAW on a PC is because there's usually two lines of products out there.

1. The: 'it has a great action but sub par sounds (or too few sounds) so I cave in and wire it to a PC instead' kind of product

2. The 'this sounds great but the action is quite horrible for piano playing' kind of product.

Or they have not found ANY piano sound in a DP that they like as much as what they can get in a computer. Or they like the flexibility of being able to combine all different kinds of sounds from a variety of manufacturers as they can on a computer. Or they are connecting to a computer anyway, for purposes of recording their work or composition.

Moreover, again, people don't always agree about these things. You could give the SAME piano to two people, and someone could have your first reaction (great action, don't love the sound), or your second (happy with the sound, not thrilled with the action).

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
The MP10 is squarely in category 1 the Nord squarely in 2.

Case in point. I put the MP10 in category 2. I think it's one of the best sounds in a DP, but the action is too heavy/sluggish for my tastes. Similarly, I like the Roland FP-7F action more than I like its sound, and there are others here who admire its sound but aren't so happy with its action.

There are also people who love both the sound and the action of the MP10, and are happy owners today. (And there are still others who love the sound and action, but need something more portable.)

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
A Nord Stage or heck even a Kronos X with the Kawai MP 10 action (or the even better actions in the digital pianos) would be an amazing instrument.

I actually prefer the sound of the MP10 to at least the stock pianos in a Kronos.

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
My hope was that this would be a product that bridges the gap between 1. and 2. but I suppose it doesn't.

What it does is allow you to create your own favorite combination, and pretty cost-effectively. The trade-off is that it's in two pieces. But there is no solution that will not be considered a trade-off by somebody, in one way or another.

What if the VPC has a cubby of some sort, where you can hide and securely lock down the laptop when you're not needing it for initial setup (while providing "clean" cabling, i.e. hidden in the unit, with only the necessary connections to the outside world visible, i.e. AC and audio out). Would that work for you? Who knows, maybe it has such a thing...

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#2018865 - 01/22/13 08:46 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Nigeth]
anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nigeth
it most probably is a midi controller so any sample set should work

I was thinking that maybe it could have some kind of iLok mechanism in it, which would be one less nuisance to bother with, and these companies are supporting Kawai's implementation.

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#2018876 - 01/22/13 09:05 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Very well said Scott!
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#2018879 - 01/22/13 09:10 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted By: CyberGene
My wild guess is that there's some flash-memory based VST player (why not a whole PC, hence the play on words VPC) in the VPC. You use the laptop to only upload the corresponding VST to the VPC and make some settings. That's why the VST needs to be "approved for Kawai VPC" - to support panel buttons, program changes, etc without a PC screen and a mouse. This way you have a digital piano with interchangeable sounds. Once you buy the VST (Pianoteq, Ivory, etc.) and upload it to the VPC, you'll have a standalone unit which you only power up and play. That's what "out of the box" means.

I'd bet few beers on this wink

I'd say it won't be this because it would be too expensive. This is supposed to be cheaper than an MP10. And it really wouldn't make sense to market such a thing as a "controller" which, by its name, implies that it is controlling something external to it. I think they also want to appeal to the market who already own things like Ivory, without having to make it so expensive by essentially duplicating, inside the unit, the computer that they already own which can already run it.

And it would have to be the whole PC, not just a bunch of flash. Even something simple like taking how many velocity layers there are and knowing where to switch them requires code beyond the samples themselves. Just moving Ivory samples into flash won't give you Ivory. (And that would be tons of expensive flash! But let's not get into that whole conversation here. ;-) )

The Crumar is the closest to what you describe... though it is not that cheap (i.e. more than an MP10), and has a Fatar action (albeit supposedly their best one).

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#2018881 - 01/22/13 09:12 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Gigantoad Offline
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It's a pure midi controller for software pianos. Why else would it have a freaking laptop in the picture?

I find some the theories here rather amusing. Why would they put a computer and storage in this thing that will be outdated in a few years, let alone software, and increase the price for nothing as many people already own the software they need?

The mention of specific software pianos can only be an attempt to somehow "certify" this controller as compatible, which will be nothing more than a marketing move as any midi controller out there will be just as compatible. At most I could see some velocity curve presets to optimize the software for use with this controller. That would be somewhat useful at least. I don't think so though. More a case of win-win marketing move for both Kawai and creators of software pianos.

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#2018898 - 01/22/13 09:52 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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Then what makes it playable "out of the box" compared to other controllers?
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#2018901 - 01/22/13 09:54 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted By: sullivang
three partial repeats on a tri-sensor action will send the MIDI sequence:
Note-On,Note-On,Note-On,Note-Off,Note-Off,Note-Off.

The two DAWs that I tried translate this to:
Note-On,Note-Off,Note-On,Note-Off,Note-On,Note-Off.

Interesting. If the keyboard is not sending a Note Off between the two Note On events, why is the DAW inserting one? It seems to me that the DAW would have to have been coded along the lines of "if you get another Note On without a Note Off, insert a Note Off before executing the second Note On." That would seem to be a very odd thing to do. Maybe they are trying to conserve polyphony? Either that or they're thinking that such a MIDI string must be an error? At any rate, I agree, a DAW should not toss out--or create!--any info, it should record the MIDI stream faithfully.

(And yes, certainly on a real piano, striking an undamped string sounds different than striking a damped string, and I'd expect some digital recreations to emulate that behavior. I wonder if DPBSD tests for that?)

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#2018902 - 01/22/13 09:56 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Temperament]
kurtie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Temperament
...MIDI extensions as enhanced velocity resolution...


Hope it will implement enhanced velocity resolution... the only keyboard I know implements it is the VAX-77. Not having it is not a deal breaker for me, but having more than 128 velocity levels will not hurt for the few software pianos already capable of using the extra resolution (Pianoteq, for instance) and is a nice future-proof feature.

You know... in the eighties we had 640x480 monitors and 128 velocity levels for MIDI. In 2013 we are talking of massive 4K far-beyond-full-HD resolutions, and we still have 128 velocity levels for MIDI... whistle (I know... it is not a fair comparison, but...)

Regards,
Kurt.-

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#2018916 - 01/22/13 10:17 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Gigantoad]
jve Offline
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Posts: 52
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
The mention of specific software pianos can only be an attempt to somehow "certify" this controller as compatible, which will be nothing more than a marketing move as any midi controller out there will be just as compatible. At most I could see some velocity curve presets to optimize the software for use with this controller.

Looking at the icons at kawaivpc.com, doesn't the small text beside VPC1 say "Approved Touch Curve", or something like that? We'll soon know, just a couple more sleepless nights...

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#2018927 - 01/22/13 10:34 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: kurtie]
anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted By: kurtie
Hope it will implement enhanced velocity resolution... the only keyboard I know implements it is the VAX-77.

Also, the PX-350. I think the 150 as well. And then, I'd expect, this week's PX-5S.

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#2018928 - 01/22/13 10:34 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nigeth Offline
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Posts: 108
Oh it is an entirely fair comparison.

There have been countless attempts to improve on MIDI since its inception. It's hard to even call MIDI a 'standard' since it has so many different implementations and the original spec was made by one company.

These attempts have all failed. Not because the new standards were bad or unsuitable, they failed because they never attracted a 'critical mass' of vendors to support them.

This is because MIDI chips are dirt cheap and the MIDI implementations are 'mature', which in the case of MIDI is an euphemism for 'we've worked out most of the incompatibilities between the different implementations and haven't touched the code in a decade anyway'.

MIDI has run its course and is due for a replacement. The fact that there are now a lot of different (and mostly incompatible) extensions makes that entirely obvious.

The most recent attempts to replace MIDI are OSC and HD-MIDI. HD-MIDI is in standard association heck since 2006 and hasn't even produced a spec yet.

OSC is supported by some controller manufacturers and a lot of open source software yet according to the wikipedia article on MIDI it is "poorly suited for use as a whole-studio solution, as to date it lacks widespread support from hardware and mainstream software."

So we're probably stuck with MIDI for another decade and will see a lot of new and incompatible extensions come up.

So kudos for ensuring compatibility between your extensions and mainstream SW vendors. I'd rather see support for a more future proof solution though.

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#2018934 - 01/22/13 10:49 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Nigeth]
HisKidd Offline
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James has given some more specific info in a post done elsewhere. This post goes to the functionality of the new VPC:
Quote:
Hello chaps,

I've been following this thread closely with interest, so thought I'd register in order to contribute to the discussion.

To be honest, this is a tricky one. There is a large group of musicians that wish to focus solely on piano playing with a first class keyboard action. However, there is an equally large group of musicians that desire a first class action but also require pitchbend/mod wheels, and then probably a separate group who need knobs and faders etc.

Unfortunately, it's very difficult to please everyone.

As others have stated, there are plenty of 'do everything' controllers out there, but few have a professional-quality keyboard action. Therefore, we decided to produce a controller with the emphasis squarely on the keyboard action, intended primarily for use with virtual piano software. However, because of the VPC's minimal design, there's plenty of space on top for extra MIDI surfaces, or an additional semi-weighted board etc. - the recently announced LaunchKey from Novation being an excellent example.

Well, I hope this helps to clarify our intended direction. If you have any queries about this new board please just let me know.

Cheers,
James


Now the intriguing question becomes, "out of the box?" If the VPC comes with the software for the Ivory II; Pianoteq; Galaxy Vintage D; (and a fourth choice)... then this could be interesting. The screen shot of the computer makes it clear that Kawai has an alternative to DAW, Kontact; etc. The emphasis here is going to be on the piano action, guys. That would be the hook to get the customer to buy. At previos NAMM shows, the Ivory folks have used Kawai boards to demo their new virtual pianos, and the MP8, 10, or MP6 would offer great action and serve as a controller. So we are back to "out of the box." James said earlier that this new board would cost less than an MP10. "Out of the Box," anywhere near that price would suggest to me software for these virtual pianos is included. Now if the fourth icon turns out to be Nord library... things really get interesting. Even if it's not Nord, I'd settle for Kawai's own production (on board) of its EX grand. Intriguing possibilities. We shall all know shortly (unless you want to tell us more, James!)
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#2018941 - 01/22/13 11:01 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
dewster Online   content
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Originally Posted By: anotherscott
No matter how wonderful Kawai's next piano sound will be, I guarantee someone will like something else better, and will wish they could just buy a Kawai action and use it to trigger the piano sound they really want, without having to pay for the rest of the electronics in the Kawai.

Put Ivory class sounds in Kawai's next DP and I guarantee almost no one will be replacing it with an external sample set & laptop. The external option is just a stopgap until DP manufacturers pick up their sound game.

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Separating the two allows everyone to create their ideal combination...

My ideal combination is tightly integrated, not a pile of wires and boxes and such.

This isn't about choice so much as making the best of a bad situation. Something like the VPC could help, but it's not a cure to the almost complete lack of integrated good sound. Maybe we need a different product category for DPs with recording quality sound, because the term "Digital Piano" almost never means that.
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#2018981 - 01/22/13 12:03 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nigeth Offline
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Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 108
The first DP I bought and still own is an MP6.

The device has mostly positive reviews and is praised quite a lot among enthusiasts.

According to the buzz it has a good action, which I agree with (although the constant *whoomp* noice the keys make when pressed or released due to the weights is quite annoying) and escapement emulation would have been nice too.

According to the reviews it should also have a 'great sounding acoustic grand' an opinion I heartily and entirely disagree with.

After owning it for a year my impression is: If experienced DP users and reviewers claim that the concert grand in the MP6 sounds 'great' then other DPs must sound truly awful by comparison.

It sounded OK (it was best of the bunch) when I reviewed and played different devices but I grew to dislike the sound over the year.

I mostly use it as a controller keyboard and use sample libraries instead of the built in sounds.

Every time I do that I keep thinking though that a piano with at least the action of the MP6 but with for example the synthogy or imperfect samples (or even the nord) library built in would fit my needs more closely.

I wanted a DP and not a controller for essentially $1200 that needs to be interfaced to a PC or MAC for at least another $1200 in order to have the performance to use sample libraries for another $300 - $600

Or go ALL the way in the other direction and offer the best controller solution for PC-based sample sets but then it would have to be tightly integrated and offer better support than e.g. 128 velocity levels of MIDI. Get the maximum out of both SW and HW.

Supporting an iLok (great direct support for a licensing and DRM device) was not what I had in mind.

But that's enough whinging for now, let's see what they announce.

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#2018984 - 01/22/13 12:08 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Nigeth]
CyberGene Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nigeth
...MP6....

...escapement emulation would have been nice too...



There is an escapement emulation in MP6. It's strange that you haven't noticed it.
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#2018997 - 01/22/13 12:27 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Nigeth]
anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nigeth
I wanted a DP and not a controller for essentially $1200 that needs to be interfaced to a PC or MAC for at least another $1200 in order to have the performance to use sample libraries for another $300 - $600

If a comparably good self-contained piano cost $2700-$3000 (i.e. same total outlay, but all in one piece), would that make you happy? Of course, you would be potentially duplicating $1200 of the expense, in that you may already own the $1200 computer, but maybe it's worth it for the convenience?

Though again, getting people to agree on which $1200 action is best, or which $300-$600 piano library is best, is also a nebulous endeavor.

(Of course, the fact that you can buy $3000 pianos that don't sound as good as a VST piano is itself part of the issue we're dealing with.)

Personally, I'm not a great fan of the MP6 piano sound OR its action. Great feature set, though.

Short of $2k, I haven't found an action I like better than the Casio PX-150/PX-350. I have recently purchased some software pianos in the $100 range, but haven't tried them yet! But I expect I could put together a pretty cost-effective and lightweight piano rig out of that. I still haven't warmed up to gigging with a computer, though. Plus, I need a lot more than just piano functionality.

Still, I'm curious to feel the action of the VPC. I also haven't had a chance to check out an ES7 yet, and I've wondered if the VPC might use the same action. I guess we'll know soon enough...

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#2019022 - 01/22/13 01:07 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
Nigeth Offline
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Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 108
Originally Posted By: anotherscott

If a comparably good self-contained piano cost $2700-$3000 (i.e. same total outlay, but all in one piece), would that make you happy?


If it offered both a great action and a great sound set? Probably.

It doesn't even stop at the pieces I mentioned.

I'd need a computer that has enough disc space, bandwidth and processing power to handle the monster > 10 GB sample sets.

I'd need a controller keyboard with a great action (doesn't exist, yet) or a DP with great action but sounds I wouldn't use

I'd need one of the high end sample sets

All in all this will set me back about $3000 or more.

Then I'd still only have the built in sound of the PC which is not good enough to enjoy your 14 GB sample set so I'd need a good external sound interface (firewire or USB 2) and an amplifier or preamp and good monitors.

If I wanted to play with headphones I'd probably also need a good headphone preamp to supply enough juice for my studio headphones.

The whole shebang will set me back probably another $1000.

If you only count the 'offset' price between the PC you need for DAW soft and the PC you probably would buy if all it needed to do was surf the web I've now spent about $3500 on gear and SW.

If a competent manufacturer integrated everything into a single device it could probably offer that significantly cheaper than that which devices like the Kronos are the living proof of.

With my MP6 at least I only need to plug in my headphones and start playing (or I would if I liked the sound)

My frustration is fueled in no small part by the fact the right now there doesn't seem to be such a device.

I could probably spend thrice my $3500 and still end up with a board that handled or sounded worse than keyboard + DAW

But maybe that's just because of the 'nebulous' endeavour you mentioned.

Quote:

(Of course, the fact that you can buy $3000 pianos that don't sound as good as a VST piano is itself part of the issue we're dealing with.)


That would have been my reply if you hadn't already said it.

If I can 'pick and mix' parts that are better for that price a manufacturer should be able to as well and Casio shows that you can offer a good solution for significantly less.

It would also probably make obsolete most of the current DP offerings so it might not be a smart move business-wise.

This gets more and more OT though so I'll just shut up and wait for the official announcement

edit: something I forgot to mention. Even if I bought best in class options for every component I'd still be stuck with MIDI and might at some point run into the technical limits of the MIDI standard that could potentially prevent me from getting everything out of SW and HW


Edited by Nigeth (01/22/13 01:10 PM)

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#2019053 - 01/22/13 01:32 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Nigeth]
anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nigeth
If I can 'pick and mix' parts that are better for that price a manufacturer should be able to as well

It's not that straight-foward, in that (as has been discussed before) manufacturers of low-volume specialty items (which are what pianos are, compared to computers) cannot manufacture, distribute, and sell commodity electronic components as cheaply as computer companies can. If you put the exact same electronics that are in your $1000 computer into a musical instrument, it would probably add far more than $1000 to its price. So yes, it can be cheaper for us to mix and match using commodity hardware than it might be for a manufacturer to give it to us all in one.

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
Casio shows that you can offer a good solution for significantly less.

I'm always wary of the "If X and can do it, than someone else should be able to do it" kinds of arguments. Kind of like telling a ball player, hey, if so-and-so can hit 40 home runs, why can't you? The resources/skills/technologies/talents between people and companies are not interchangeable. I don't know why Casio can give you more for your money than most other companies. Maybe it's deep pockets for R&D, maybe they have some good unique (patented?) technologies, maybe they have better economies of scale, maybe they have some particularly clever engineers, who knows. Luckily, they have given us some good choices!

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#2019083 - 01/22/13 02:21 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
kurtie Offline
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Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 207
Originally Posted By: anotherscott

It's not that straight-foward, in that (as has been discussed before) manufacturers of low-volume specialty items (which are what pianos are, compared to computers) cannot manufacture, distribute, and sell commodity electronic components as cheaply as computer companies can.


So true. Specially if custom chips have to be designed. If Intel tomorrow would decide that it is going to develop DPs, in approximately 18 monthes we would have the DP of our dreams. Well, more or less because the first action would probably suck grin . But the chipset would probably blow the rest of DPs: unprecedent storage and processing capabilities.

Of course that is not going to happen. Never. Intel's deep pockets need to sell lots of millions of units or the investment needed is just too big. I don't know DPs figures, but I assume that probably any DP is going to sell even 1 million of units... there is a brand that can sell 1 million of DPs per year? all the brands together? Really don't know.

Another examples on the same line of thought: Wii, PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360, around 50 million units sold each. Otherwise they could cost a lot more to produce.

If DPs would be sold by millions, they would cost a lot less of what they cost now.

Regards,
Kurt.-

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#2019106 - 01/22/13 03:10 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: kurtie]
HisKidd Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 198
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Still fascinated with trying to figure out what the teasers mean. On the facebook page: facebook.com/kawaivpc, one of the pics reads: "Finally, a virtual piano controller that plays out of the box." The teaser also displays icons for Ivory II, Pianoteq, and Galaxy, Vintage D. Just using common sense here... it can't play "out of the box," unless the virtual pianos are already loaded. I see one wire. I'm guessing the connection from the board to the computer is via usb, and that the reason for the computer is that the four virtuals have agreed to allow Kawai to use its own propriety operating system (that would be the screen shot of the computer), and not ILock, DAWS, or Kontakt. What is the remaining icon? I'm hoping for the Nord library. This board will probably also include either RM3 or GF with the new three sensors per key. Now if you had that action along with these libraries already preloaded in the board, that would be a killer controller. Keeping my fingers crossed until NAAM arrives!
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#2019127 - 01/22/13 03:43 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
CyberGene Offline
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Yes, that was my understanding as well, however the more I think about it, the more I doubt it. With all my respect, it's way too revolutionary to be done by Kawai. And it will be expensive, certainly more than MP10. "Plays out of the box" is just a catch phrase. In a matter of days it will get twisted in a way, like "you get it out of the box, connect it to your computer, Install Ivory 2 (optionally included) and voila - it plays out of the box" laugh
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#2019201 - 01/22/13 06:14 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nomadness Offline
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Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 145
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Actually, "plays out of the box" means that it will let you perform this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUlniydKvy0

smile


Edited by Nomadness (01/22/13 06:30 PM)
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#2019204 - 01/22/13 06:16 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
TubularBills Offline
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Registered: 11/28/12
Posts: 9
Loc: France
And I just ordered the ES7... hope this won't make me regret it.

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#2019222 - 01/22/13 06:38 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: TubularBills]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Registered: 08/19/10
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I assumed it was just a play on "think out of the box," but with something lost in translation.
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#2019230 - 01/22/13 06:46 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Dr Popper Offline
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It's a high end piano CONTROLLER ..... think exactly like a LACHNIT !!!!
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#2019245 - 01/22/13 07:04 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Kawai James Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
I assumed it was just a play on "think out of the box," but with something lost in translation.


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#2019247 - 01/22/13 07:06 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Dr Popper]
dewster Online   content
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Registered: 12/07/09
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Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
It's a high end piano CONTROLLER ..... think exactly like a LACHNIT !!!!

Don't look at us. Wild speculation is only natural due to the dearth of direct info due to the specification striptease due to the approaching NAMM. That, and everyone has been rightly expecting breakthrough DPs for the last decade or so and for whatever reasons they never seem to appear, just the same old warmed over loops from the same old sample sessions.
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#2019257 - 01/22/13 07:20 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
sullivang Offline
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Registered: 07/05/09
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Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Either that or they're thinking that such a MIDI string must be an error? At any rate, I agree, a DAW should not toss out--or create!--any info, it should record the MIDI stream faithfully.


I suspect that's the reason. It's probably got something to do with the fact that the DAW probably converts the MIDI into it's own internal format, and this is the best it can do with such a MIDI sequence. Remember - DAWs allow events to be edited in all kinds of ways, and it would be messy to try to retain this strange sequence. Maybe what's needed is for DAWs to indeed use the Note-On/Note-Off translation, but somehow add a note-specific damper control channel that makes it obvious to the user what is going on. It would be a very busy screen though if there were lots of notes performing partial repeats simultaneously though.

Originally Posted By: CyberGene
Originally Posted By: Nigeth
...MP6....

...escapement emulation would have been nice too...



There is an escapement emulation in MP6. It's strange that you haven't noticed it.


Yes and no. It has the let-off feel of "escapement", but it does not have double-escapement simulation, which requires a tri-sensor action or something that allows un-damped shallow repeats. Folks often confuse the two types of escapement, and Nigeth may have been referring to double-escapement. (?)

Greg.

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#2019279 - 01/22/13 08:06 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
o0Ampy0o Offline
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Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
This has been an increasingly interesting thread.

One thing I don't understand is how anyone participating in this discussion could consider Nord sounds as a potential 4th icon. The first three are software pianos for keyboards. None are the sounds of another digital keyboard brand.

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#2019287 - 01/22/13 08:30 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
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Indeed, the product is called 'Virtual Piano Controller' for a reason.

Any thoughts on what the fourth icon will represent?

Cheers,
James
x
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#2019290 - 01/22/13 08:34 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Nomadness Offline
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An in-house software piano product?
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#2019292 - 01/22/13 08:39 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
o0Ampy0o Offline
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Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
As Nomadness suggested, the logical one is a Kawai software piano:


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#2019316 - 01/22/13 09:16 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: HisKidd]
anotherscott Offline
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Registered: 02/20/10
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Originally Posted By: HisKidd
I'm guessing [Ivory and Pianoteq] are giving Kawai permission to use the VPC's onboard software to run these two virual pianos.

Nah... the VPC wouldn't be able to "run" these things without having a computer inside, which as mentioned earlier, wouldn't seem to make sense based on it its price and on its being called a controller.

Originally Posted By: HisKidd
Will Nord's library also be available?

Nord's samples are designed to run in their own proprietary environment. And I expect that Nord would be about as enthusiastic about making their piano samples available to a competitor like Kawai as Kawai would be about selling their actions to Nord. ;-)

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
So it seems like this is just a list of which of the companies offer sample sets that are compatible with/were approved by Kawai for the VPC.

I wonder why they even mention that since it most probably is a midi controller so any sample set should work


Originally Posted By: HisKidd
If the VPC comes with the software for the Ivory II; Pianoteq; Galaxy Vintage D; (and a fourth choice)... then this could be interesting.

Now HERE I think we could be on to something... I'm going to guess that Kawai has made arrangements with the makers of Ivory, Pianoteq, Galaxy, and a fourth software maker to include their products in the box, i.e. free with the purchase of the VPC. You still need your own computer, but the VPC purchase will give you everything else you need, including, say, their own simple-to-install host software that will spare new users the complication of figuring out how to get multiple piano libraries working on their PC and optimizing various settings. And it could handle the protection so that a separate ilok will not be required (though that might mean that the piano libraries will not run unless connected to the VPC).

It may not be as ideal as having these sounds "built into" the piano as so many here want, but if they give you a great action and a simple, reliable, cost effective way to drive a variety of the most popular soft pianos, I think this would be a very appealing product.

James, if I'm right, what do I win? I'll be glad to give you an address to send my VPC. ;-)

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#2019318 - 01/22/13 09:21 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
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Registered: 07/05/09
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And if they're included, that would mean those virtual pianos would finally be available in stores! Imagine that.

Greg.

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#2019347 - 01/22/13 10:16 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: anotherscott]
Nomadness Offline
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Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 145
Loc: Friday Harbor, WA
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
James, if I'm right, what do I win? I'll be glad to give you an address to send my VPC. ;-)

I'll send my address too, if I nailed it in the fourth icon sweepstakes... whistle

Seriously, I'm liking the looks of this more and more. Will be on the edge of my seat awaiting pricing and other details.
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#2019350 - 01/22/13 10:19 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Stevesie Offline
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Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 45
A decent built in ASIO interface would be cool, too.

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#2019352 - 01/22/13 10:23 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Careful, or Dr Popper's head will...um...pop. ;^)

Greg.

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#2019386 - 01/22/13 11:33 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: sullivang]
HisKidd Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 198
Loc: AL/USA
O.K... Let's get specific on the last icon, James. I've already mentioned this in my earlier thread as a possibility; and I'm guessing the 4th icon will be Kawai's own sampling of it's EX grand, and possibly one or two other Kawai samples (similar to Ivory II). Whether the software comes in the box for the other three, or it's already installed makes no matter. The point is; once loaded, You would have an incredible controller - especially if it has either RM3 or GF with 3 sensor per key action. We also discussed speakers earllier. From the picture of the computer on top of the board, it appears there are also onboard speakers. I think these specifics would make for a great seller (with the action being the big appeal). Ding, ding, winner, James?
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