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#2011204 - 01/08/13 01:52 PM Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman)
David Benjamin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/28/11
Posts: 17
Hello everyone,

I've really tried, but I just can't figure it out.

My question:



What fingering does Zimerman use in this video? (1:54, 3:27)
I just need the part where he uses two hands and I need the exact fingering there.

Thanks a lot.

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#2011223 - 01/08/13 02:35 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
I think it would take an electron microscope to see exactly what he does. grin

Anyway, I would suggest that you not worry about exactly what it is. There are probably literally an infinite number of ways that people divide it (including not dividing it at all). In fact, I think I myself have played it an infinite number of different ways. ha

You don't "need" his exact fingering, because there wouldn't be anything magical about whatever he does and you wouldn't necessarily benefit from trying to do it exactly that way. Figure out whatever seems like it might work for you, or, if you want to find out what kinds of things we've done, you can ask about that -- and there's a chance one of them would be what he does or pretty close. And maybe some people will want to take a swing at guessing exactly what he does...

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#2011230 - 01/08/13 02:48 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
different fingering for different people for different hands.

Even if you find out what he's doing it might not be the best option for you

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#2011237 - 01/08/13 03:01 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
David Benjamin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/28/11
Posts: 17
Thank you very much. I never thought about it that way. I'll just try to figure out the best way for me to play it.
But I woudn't mind if some of you want to share me their way to play that part. smile


Edited by David Benjamin (01/08/13 03:01 PM)

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#2011238 - 01/08/13 03:01 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
OK, I went to my local science lab and got an electron microscope. ha

I think he's playing just a couple of "F's" with the LH thumb, and the rest with RH. What fingering he's exactly doing with the RH, I have no idea, but I can guess according to what it seems could work if that's correct about what the LH does.

I'd say:

125125 / 2 then LH thumb, now back to RH, and here's where I'm really guessing... 5215 / 2 then LH thumb again, then back to RH: 521 ...and the next RH note could be 3 or 4 or even 5, doesn't much matter.

Don't feel you have to use that. In fact, don't assume it's right either. grin

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#2011240 - 01/08/13 03:06 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
My favorite strange fingering: grin

RH 125125 / 213 then LH 132 / 5* then RH 241 then LH 1 then RH 3 / then final LH octave.
No fooling. smile

I like it because it helps enable what I want to be doing musically, which is to become more brilliant toward the end.


* Need to make sure that note has some strength; needs extra attention because it's the pinky

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#2011316 - 01/08/13 04:42 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
David Benjamin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/28/11
Posts: 17
Wow, thanks a lot. I tried it and it's almost like a hack for that part grin
But as long as it sounds like it should, it's all fine.


Edited by David Benjamin (01/08/13 04:42 PM)

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#2011326 - 01/08/13 04:47 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: David Benjamin
Wow, thanks a lot. I tried it....

His or mine? grin

Quote:
....and it's almost like a hack.... grin

Does that mean something good or bad?

I gotta go learn some English.... ha

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#2011345 - 01/08/13 05:03 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Mark_C]
David Benjamin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/28/11
Posts: 17
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

His or mine? grin


At first his. Yours is a bit more difficult smile , but I will try that as well.

Quote:

Does that mean something good or bad?

I gotta go learn some English.... ha


You could replace hack with cheat if you like grin (but cheat sounds so negative and I don't think it's something bad to make that part as easy as possible as long as it sounds good)



Edited by David Benjamin (01/08/13 05:04 PM)

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#2011349 - 01/08/13 05:14 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
Mark_C Offline
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There's no such thing as "cheating" on this kind of thing.

To even think of it that way, you need to assume that the way Chopin wrote it meant that he intended it all to be played with the RH. I absolutely don't think it means that at all. Maybe some people do, but I've never come across any basis for it.

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#2011350 - 01/08/13 05:16 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4834
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
There's no such thing as "cheating" on this kind of thing.

To even think of it that way, you need to assume that the way Chopin wrote it meant that he intended it all to be played with the RH. I absolutely don't think it means that at all. Maybe some people do, but I've never come across any basis for it.


Why do people even say such a thing? Whatever works.. RIGHT??

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#2011353 - 01/08/13 05:22 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
.....Whatever works.. RIGHT??

I guess so. grin

I think most of us would agree there are exceptions, especially on etudes. I worked out a fingering for Chopin's 1st Etude (10/1) where you never had to stretch more than a 7th. (Yeah, not even an octave.) ha
That's cheating. smile
Because it's not playing the piece.

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#2011369 - 01/08/13 05:50 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
David Benjamin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/28/11
Posts: 17
That's why I didn't want to use the the word cheat in the first place smile
Maybe cheat was the wrong word for hack. Hack is just a trick that makes something difficult much easier.
And I said "almost like" because I know that it is totally legit to play this part in such a way.
Sorry if I expressed myself wrong. I didn't mean to offend anyone smile

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#2011386 - 01/08/13 06:48 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: David Benjamin
....Sorry if I expressed myself wrong. I didn't mean to offend anyone smile

No need -- you didn't express yourself wrong! And about "offend," on a scale of 1 to 10, that's not on it. grin

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#2011409 - 01/08/13 07:47 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Mark, I couldn't quite figure out your fingering, but I don't have a keyboard handy at the moment. (Is it anything similar to what I've written below?)

I've played this passage two different ways. First is all right hand (125 up, 521 down). Second is:

Ascending notes: all RH 125 125

Descending: RH52/51 LH1 RH52/51 LH5 (repeat). Your RH jumps over your left, but with the speed of the passage, playing a thumb on every F didn't make sense to me. Too many jumps for my brain to process.
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#2011422 - 01/08/13 08:21 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
buladscot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 6
I absolutely don't think it means that at all. Maybe some people do, but I've never come across any basis for it.
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#2011468 - 01/08/13 10:16 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Derulux]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Mark, I couldn't quite figure out your fingering....

Probably because it's a little bizarre. ha

But that aside, it's totally straightforward. I indicated the fingers for each and every note, consecutively and with no omissions. grin

Originally Posted By: buladscot
I absolutely don't think it means that at all. Maybe some people do, but I've never come across any basis for it.

Welcome to the "great minds" club! ha

Actually there do seem to be plenty of people who think a notation like this means Chopin intended it not to be divided and that you're 'supposed to' play it all with the RH -- but I've never, ever, ever anywhere seen or heard any of the people in that camp explain or justify the position in any way, at all, whatsoever. smile

BTW, y'all out there, including the thousands of lurkers who don't post and mostly who don't even register, consider this an invitation!

And if we get no reply, I guess we can take that as a concession, once and for all. grin

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#2011477 - 01/08/13 10:57 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Mark_C]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Mark, I couldn't quite figure out your fingering....

Probably because it's a little bizarre. ha

But that aside, it's totally straightforward. I indicated the fingers for each and every note, consecutively and with no omissions. grin

I think I'd have to see you do it, because if I'm breaking it up correctly in my head, then you have the largest hands I've ever seen. laugh
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2011497 - 01/09/13 12:00 AM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Derulux]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Derulux
I think I'd have to see you do it, because if I'm breaking it up correctly in my head, then you have the largest hands I've ever seen. laugh

Probably above average, but not like that. ha

BTW I knew you meant just that it's hard to visualize or imagine what it is without putting your hands on the keyboard. And no, there are no big stretches.

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#2011503 - 01/09/13 12:17 AM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
Aldous Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
He uses this fingering, given to me by my late teacher, Latvian pianist Herman Godes, a student of Walter Gieseking: RH, beginning on F above middle C 125, (LH 1), RH 141, (LH1), RH 41, (LH5), RH 41, (LH1), RH 41, (LH 5) RH 2, then the octave D-flat (LH, obviously).

Interlocking hands. It makes the passage easy. There are other ingenious fingerings in the development section of the Trio that also make the piece playable at a fast tempo with lots of power. Most editors miss them.



Edited by Aldous (01/09/13 12:18 AM)
_________________________
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#2011505 - 01/09/13 12:24 AM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Aldous]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
He who?

(It seems like you mean Zimerman, but that's not what he's doing.)

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#2011578 - 01/09/13 07:04 AM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: David Benjamin]
David Benjamin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/28/11
Posts: 17
Hmm I had no problems playing Marks version. smile


Edited by David Benjamin (01/09/13 07:05 AM)

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#2011631 - 01/09/13 09:26 AM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Mark_C]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Derulux
I think I'd have to see you do it, because if I'm breaking it up correctly in my head, then you have the largest hands I've ever seen. laugh

Probably above average, but not like that. ha

BTW I knew you meant just that it's hard to visualize or imagine what it is without putting your hands on the keyboard. And no, there are no big stretches.

I finally got frustrated enough to download a copy of the score and go note by note. I did have it wrong in my head (obviously). That's a really nifty fingering that I never thought of. smile

Ever try this?
125125 | 1 LH214 RH241 LH214 RH24 LH 15(octave)


Edited by Derulux (01/09/13 09:27 AM)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2011648 - 01/09/13 10:35 AM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Mark_C]
Aldous Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
He who?

(It seems like you mean Zimerman, but that's not what he's doing.)


Of course, I mean Zimerman. In the clip. Who else? And you're wrong, the fingering I listed above is EXACTLY what he is performing. I'm playing the piece now myself.

I don't know many other pianists who actually perform this piece who DON'T use the fingering Zimerman is using in this clip and the fingering I was taught. What most editors mark in scores is practically unplayable at tempo.

Look again: you'll see how the right hand is mainly 141 with the LH alternating with 1 and 5. Try the passage yourself and you'll see that's what Zimerman is playing.

Thanks for your patience.
_________________________
Ich grolle nicht.

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#2011676 - 01/09/13 11:48 AM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Aldous]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Aldous
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
He who?

(It seems like you mean Zimerman, but that's not what he's doing.)


Of course, I mean Zimerman. In the clip. Who else? And you're wrong, the fingering I listed above is EXACTLY what he is performing. I'm playing the piece now myself.

I don't know many other pianists who actually perform this piece who DON'T use the fingering Zimerman is using in this clip and the fingering I was taught. What most editors mark in scores is practically unplayable at tempo.

Seriously? I know Evgeny Kissin and Yundi Li break it up, but here are just a couple of examples of pianists who play it with one hand:

Martha Argerich 1:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enJ6be4qLMs
**You can't see her fingers, but you can see her arms, and her left arm isn't far enough to the right to play any notes.

Rubinstein 1:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEKJY6A_cnc

Berezovsky 1:33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pumSCnS14c

Earl Wilde 1:33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u-3csjFTJU

Martin David Jones 2:09 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc4d0QMqvio
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2011688 - 01/09/13 12:32 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Derulux]
Aldous Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Aldous
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
He who?

(It seems like you mean Zimerman, but that's not what he's doing.)


Of course, I mean Zimerman. In the clip. Who else? And you're wrong, the fingering I listed above is EXACTLY what he is performing. I'm playing the piece now myself.

I don't know many other pianists who actually perform this piece who DON'T use the fingering Zimerman is using in this clip and the fingering I was taught. What most editors mark in scores is practically unplayable at tempo.

Seriously? I know Evgeny Kissin and Yundi Li break it up, but here are just a couple of examples of pianists who play it with one hand:

Martha Argerich 1:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enJ6be4qLMs
**You can't see her fingers, but you can see her arms, and her left arm isn't far enough to the right to play any notes.

Rubinstein 1:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEKJY6A_cnc

Berezovsky 1:33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pumSCnS14c

Earl Wilde 1:33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u-3csjFTJU

Martin David Jones 2:09 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc4d0QMqvio



"Seriously?" No, I'm completely devoid of "seriousness" on this issue.

Okay, fine, you found four pianists who don't do what Zimerman, Gieseking and Godes do. And I envy the spare time you have to research such minutiae.

The point of my responding to this original post to begin with was to be helpful in offering fingering that is commonly used, as Zimerman illustrates. I don't have any more time to argue. Play it as you wish.


Edited by Aldous (01/09/13 12:34 PM)
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#2011689 - 01/09/13 12:33 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Aldous]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Maybe you're right, but I don't see Zimerman keeping his LH in each place long enough to also be playing those notes with the pinky. I also don't think that would give the hand enough time to get so smoothly to each next place.

Edit: Well, I went and tried it (never hurts) grin and I think it is possible after all! In fact, you've converted me -- on both what he's probably doing, and what I might try to do. smile


Edited by Mark_C (01/09/13 12:44 PM)

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#2011804 - 01/09/13 04:42 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Aldous]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Aldous
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Aldous
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
He who?

(It seems like you mean Zimerman, but that's not what he's doing.)


Of course, I mean Zimerman. In the clip. Who else? And you're wrong, the fingering I listed above is EXACTLY what he is performing. I'm playing the piece now myself.

I don't know many other pianists who actually perform this piece who DON'T use the fingering Zimerman is using in this clip and the fingering I was taught. What most editors mark in scores is practically unplayable at tempo.

Seriously? I know Evgeny Kissin and Yundi Li break it up, but here are just a couple of examples of pianists who play it with one hand:

Martha Argerich 1:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enJ6be4qLMs
**You can't see her fingers, but you can see her arms, and her left arm isn't far enough to the right to play any notes.

Rubinstein 1:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEKJY6A_cnc

Berezovsky 1:33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pumSCnS14c

Earl Wilde 1:33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u-3csjFTJU

Martin David Jones 2:09 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc4d0QMqvio



"Seriously?" No, I'm completely devoid of "seriousness" on this issue.

Okay, fine, you found four pianists who don't do what Zimerman, Gieseking and Godes do. And I envy the spare time you have to research such minutiae.

The point of my responding to this original post to begin with was to be helpful in offering fingering that is commonly used, as Zimerman illustrates. I don't have any more time to argue. Play it as you wish.

Sorry, your previous post seemed to imply that yours was the most common or even "preferred" fingering. So that is probably what I reacted to. I took about 3 minutes to go to YouTube and pull up links of performances I already knew. Nothing was, as you say, "researched".
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2011926 - 01/09/13 09:19 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Derulux]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Ever try this?
125125 | 1 LH214 RH241 LH214 RH24 LH 15(octave)

BTW, is that something you do (or have tried) or did you derive it from my bizarro fingering? grin

No, I haven't tried it, and I wouldn't do it because for me, it would be too risky and probably not readily musical to keep landing on the F's. Risky, because I could easily catch Gb instead of F or along with it. BTW if I did do it, for the first note of the 2nd measure I'd use 2, not 1.

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#2011940 - 01/09/13 09:45 PM Re: Fingering Scherzo No. 2 (Zimerman) [Re: Aldous]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Aldous
He uses this fingering, given to me by my late teacher, Latvian pianist Herman Godes, a student of Walter Gieseking: RH, beginning on F above middle C 125, (LH 1), RH 141, (LH1), RH 41, (LH5), RH 41, (LH1), RH 41, (LH 5) RH 2, then the octave D-flat (LH, obviously).

Been playing around with that a bit. It's very interesting, and sort of easy, but....for what it's worth I think I'll wind up sticking with what I indicated up there. I think it's advantageous because there are fewer shifts of the hands. Smoother and more elegant, I think without sacrificing power -- and inherently giving the 'explosion' at the end that I want. You can do that with the other too, but the fingering itself doesn't so automatically just make it happen.

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