Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
114 registered (36251, anamnesis, ABC Vermonter, anotherscott, accordeur, 25 invisible), 1446 Guests and 14 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#2011734 - 01/09/13 02:27 PM programs where the pieces are harmonically linked
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4932
Loc: USA
How often you encounter a pianist reciting a program where the pieces are, either by accident or not, harmonically linked? Maybe 'harmonically linked' isn't the right term. As in... the key of each piece makes for smooth transitions between them, and the ear very much enjoys it. Have you ever tried to put together a program like this?

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2011754 - 01/09/13 03:14 PM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18292
Loc: Victoria, BC
It seems to me that there are many ways that a pianist could conceive this type of program :
- circle of fifths
- circle of fourths
- major/minor/major (C major/A minor; A/major/F-sharp minor; F-sharp major/E-flat minor, etc.,
- chromatically, ascending or descending

but it all sounds pretty artificial and contrived unless there were some other more unifying thread in the program. Otherwise, I would have to ask : why?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2011862 - 01/09/13 07:09 PM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
davaofthekeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 243
Rather than 'harmonically linked', I would suggest looking at the tempo of the pieces. Playing too many slow ones in a row can get a bit sleepy for the listeners, I usually try to alternate between slow/fast pieces when possible for maximun variation.

Top
#2011971 - 01/09/13 11:16 PM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2398
Loc: SoCal
Well, I saw Andras Schiff perform WTC Books I and II. Those are harmonically linked, I guess.


Edited by Plowboy (01/09/13 11:16 PM)
_________________________
Gary

Top
#2012416 - 01/10/13 06:50 PM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2667
Loc: Netherlands
at the moment I play in a program Chopin op.57 followed by op.35, D-flat and b-flat, it works, it is a shock by all means, to go from sleeping sweetly into a nightmare, well, it works, the more as the 2 works share a 'common' key and are played without a break (so to speak). In general the audience isn't at all aware of keys, so one is free to play any key, any piece of any period, as long as the program is interesting/musical/worthwile. No one ever minds that Kreisleriana is half an hour of g-minor (bit of relative major).
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couchÚ de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

Top
#2012421 - 01/10/13 06:54 PM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3836
Loc: Bay Area, CA
I didn't perform these, but I had worked up Chopin's op.10/6 to be followed by op.10/12.

The ending of op.10/6 (with its sudden resolution to Eb major) followed immediately by the crashing G7 opening of op.10/12 was pleasing to me.


-J
_________________________
Schubert Immersion: Bb Impromptu; C# minor and Ab Moments Musicaux; accompanying four songs (Suleika II, Rastlose Liebe, Du Liebst Mich Nicht, Im Fruhling); listening intensely to Die Sch÷ne MŘllerin and Winterreise

Chopin: first Ballade; Mozart: D minor concerto;

Top
#2012424 - 01/10/13 07:08 PM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2667
Loc: Netherlands
I do op.10 and op.25 and they seem to work better than the lot of op. 28, due to the music rather than the keys I suppose.
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couchÚ de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

Top
#2012435 - 01/10/13 07:33 PM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Although occasionally pianists choose the order of pieces or the actual pieces based on their keys, in my experience it is extremely rare. I can only think of a handful of concerts in almost 50 years of concert going where this was an obvious consideration. I think most would say this is of such minor importance compared to every other consideration that 99% of concert goers don't care about it.

I agree with other posters who said it's very artificial.

Top
#2012557 - 01/11/13 12:37 AM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 945
Loc: California
I once heard Richard Goode play a recital the second half of which consisted of Brahms op. 118 (entire) followed by Beethoven op. 111. The transition was very striking. One could say the keys are related in that the second (c minor) is the relative minor of the parallel major of the first (e flat minor.) But more important is that the final chord of the Brahms includes the pitches of the opening octave of the Beethoven.

Top
#2012588 - 01/11/13 02:25 AM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
If you consider that a sonata (classical anyhow or neo-classical) have links in their tonalities between movements, I'd say that this is as far as I'd go... I mean a sonata can very well be 25-30 minutes long (especially A Prokofiev one, or a late Beethoven one), so it covers 2/3rds of a 1st half of a program (of, of, of... nice going... heh).

I doubt there's much need for anything else and as others said it would sound rather artificial.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2012612 - 01/11/13 04:47 AM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
SlatterFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 784
Loc: Brighton, UK
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
How often you encounter a pianist reciting a program where the pieces are, either by accident or not, harmonically linked? Maybe 'harmonically linked' isn't the right term. As in... the key of each piece makes for smooth transitions between them, and the ear very much enjoys it. Have you ever tried to put together a program like this?

Sometimes this is built into sets of pieces by the composer. For example, most of Rachmaninoff's Op.23 and Op.32 preludes are linked by having a prominent note at the end of one piece appear at or near the beginning of the next piece. Most of Dvořák's Silhouettes, Op. 8 also do this, and I seem to remember that some groups of pieces within Fibich's Moods, Impressions & Souvenirs, Op.41 do it as well.
_________________________
Julian

Top
#2012623 - 01/11/13 06:10 AM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: BruceD]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: BruceD
It seems to me that there are many ways that a pianist could conceive this type of program :
- circle of fifths
- circle of fourths
- major/minor/major (C major/A minor; A/major/F-sharp minor; F-sharp major/E-flat minor, etc.,
- chromatically, ascending or descending

but it all sounds pretty artificial and contrived unless there were some other more unifying thread in the program. Otherwise, I would have to ask : why?




I think oftentimes we as listeners will experience the key sequence of pieces in a program as being either musical somewhat logical or maybe not so much, but it is pretty much unconscious (unless it's a group of small pieces - it becomes more obvious, then). I have some not-very-specific memories of concert pianists talking about taking the key relationships of pieces into consideration when planning a program, but it's not like they advertise to the audience that they've done so. I don't see why that kind of planning would be any more "artificial" than any other kind of planning, if it makes sense to the performer.

Top
#2013915 - 01/13/13 12:34 PM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
AldenH Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
There are links between Chopin Op. 25, Nos. 5, 6, and 7 (all linked via G-sharps). Charles Rosen pointed that out.

There's also the interesting 'hanging note' that appears at the very start of Op. 25, Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. Almost a suspension of time.

Top
#2013948 - 01/13/13 02:40 PM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: JoelW]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
If one looks hard enough one can probably always find some kind of link(key, motivic, mood, tempo, etc. ad infinitum) between pieces in a recital program or consecutive pieces in a set. But I have serious doubts whether this is usually important. I don't think, except in the case of Sonatas, that the composer or performer always made these links on purpose, but rather that they often "discovered" by someone looking for some kind of link.

Top
#2013956 - 01/13/13 03:01 PM Re: programs where the pieces are harmonically linked [Re: AldenH]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18292
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: AldenH
[...]
There's also the interesting 'hanging note' that appears at the very start of Op. 25, Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. Almost a suspension of time.


I certainly wouldn't think of these notes as "... a suspension of time" which, if played as such, would destroy their function. Quite the contrary, these notes are upbeats leading to the mean beat, and should be both conceived and played as such.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Getting better
by Kekewak
12/21/14 07:35 PM
Pearl River vs. Samick
by Zekk
12/21/14 03:41 PM
Kawai vs. Yamaha: what to choose
by SeeSharp
12/21/14 02:19 PM
Disklavier Pro Alternatives? C5X Value for money?
by bryan77
12/21/14 01:15 PM
piano sound is the result of more than just the hammer speed
by Keith D Kerman
12/21/14 01:05 PM
Forum Stats
77389 Members
42 Forums
160046 Topics
2350290 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission