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#1983330 - 11/06/12 07:41 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Max is once again trying to make a temperament old piano "Belarus"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYrv2950b44
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1983854 - 11/07/12 05:37 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Dennis Kelvie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/17/07
Posts: 156
Loc: Caldwell, Idaho
Hey Max,
I AGREE with Johnkie, you DO use the hoover well. And you did NOT demonstrate any difference in anything more than the difference between a badly out of tune piano and one in better tune. You demonstrated NOTHING about the new temperament. The only REAL difference appeared to be in the unisons.

Do you know the difference?
_________________________
Dennis C. Kelvie
Piano Tuner/Technician since 1976

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#1984574 - 11/09/12 10:10 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Dennis Kelvie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Dennis Kelvie
. The only REAL difference appeared to be in the unisons.

Are Unison is still there?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1984619 - 11/09/12 12:18 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2434
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Max, spend some time around a really good tuner if you can find one. Carefully analyze the temperament on various pianos. It would be best if you had a solid benchmark to measure your progress against.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1984641 - 11/09/12 01:03 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Carefully analyze the temperament on various pianos.

Hi,Emmery
Thanks for watching my movie. From your point of view it is permissible for temperament Piano 1957? I'm really trying to find the right temperament. I do not hide their mistakes. I am ready to criticism from other tuners. I do it's as I can, sorry
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1984898 - 11/10/12 04:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 436
Loc: Münster, Germany
If you don´t have a mentor, go and get a tuning software like tunelab. Tune the temperament and check it with tunelab: what did you well, what not? Use it as a mentor.

BTW, temperament is the term for tuning the whole octave from A3 to A4.

Gregor
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#1984970 - 11/10/12 09:24 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2434
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
The temperament octave can be set in in various areas of the keyboard. Some people like to extend it beyond an octave also, but an octave is the minumum needed.

F3-F4 is probably most popular. Major 3rds get too fast above this point for progressive checks for most people. I know an old timer who sets his temperament between F2-F3 and likes the slower M3's afforded by this, and lots of people go from C3-C4, especially if they are carrying a C fork.


Edited by Emmery (11/10/12 09:25 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1985208 - 11/11/12 01:14 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
erichlof Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 370
Hey Max,
If you can't watch a pro at work tuning in your area, take a look at this video:



Listen to him tuning unisons and octaves. Always strive for a clean, clear unison and octave - no 'waves' or 'wobbles'.

Good luck!

Top
#1985271 - 11/11/12 08:29 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1765
Loc: London, England
By now you should be doing a decent tuning. I can't help thInking that you might be doing a good tuning but, because of the lever technique you lectured us about in your last video, I can hear the piano going out of tune while you spend the first half of this particular video talking.

In your favor, I have yet to find a uTube demonstration of a good classic tuning technique using the thumb as a fulcrum that you can learn from. It seems that the ones who really know how to tune either don't know how to put a video on line or simply can't be bothered.

"The stuff on the web these days is actively preventing raw talent from developing"----discuss....
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1985277 - 11/11/12 08:56 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
By now you should be doing a decent tuning. I can't help thInking that you might be doing a good tuning but, because of the lever technique you lectured us about in your last video, I can hear the piano going out of tune while you spend the first half of this particular video talking.

In your favor, I have yet to find a uTube demonstration of a good classic tuning technique using the thumb as a fulcrum that you can learn from. It seems that the ones who really know how to tune either don't know how to put a video on line or simply can't be bothered.

"The stuff on the web these days is actively preventing raw talent from developing"----discuss....


I'm sorry but I absolutely do not understand what you mean. If you think that Max is not able to tuning of a piano, then it is your right
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1985293 - 11/11/12 09:42 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1765
Loc: London, England
Read it again, max. That's not what I said.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#1985297 - 11/11/12 09:53 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Read it again, max. That's not what I said.

So, what are You talked?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1998137 - 12/12/12 01:04 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1998163 - 12/12/12 02:23 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1765
Loc: London, England
Thank you, Max I haven't heard "Hearts amd Flowers" for years.
Did you tune the Yamaha?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#1998168 - 12/12/12 02:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Thank you, Max I haven't heard "Hearts amd Flowers" for years.
Did you tune the Yamaha?

Yes,I am.In the Russian version of the name of this romance "I met you" Я встретил Вас.
This is my first try a grand piano temperament use a professional hammer(gift's pianolive). I got up a pitch of this grand from 438 to 440.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1998184 - 12/12/12 03:55 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1765
Loc: London, England
This represents quite a large improvement.

I suspect that, even though the a was 438, the treble may have been even lower so going over the tuning twice would have produced a better result.

The next step is to use other intervals as checks when tuning octaves and also in checking your work before finishing. By using these checks you will also realise the need for more care in the temperament. Tuning is a lifetimes study.

There are a couple of current threads on this forum that have a lot of good information on this.

Thank you for confirming our faith in you.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#1998197 - 12/12/12 05:34 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
This represents quite a large improvement.
Thank you for confirming our faith in you.

Thank you for your message,rxd . For me it was very important, especially your estimation, I'm touched. Over the year I was read many topics our forum about the tuning. Now sometimes me try manage temperament. Client-owner of Yamaha was pleased this temperament. I was afraid to pull the bass strings and long conjured over the every pins, but the Lord protected me. I did tuning this Grand! I thank all the technicians who give me advice and believe in me. Regards,Max


Edited by Maximillyan (12/12/12 05:35 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2007795 - 01/02/13 02:56 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Happy New Year!!!
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2009017 - 01/04/13 03:39 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
murrayb1893 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 4
Too hard to tell via a Youtube video.
_________________________
For free piano care information visit http://murraypianotuning.com

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#2009275 - 01/05/13 03:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: murrayb1893]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: murrayb1893
Too hard to tell via a Youtube video.

Sorry murrayb1893. A message forum for those technicians who are aware of Max from Kazakhstan. He is still trying to do temperament oldest piano.maxim_tuner ready for constructive criticism
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2009362 - 01/05/13 09:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1765
Loc: London, England
It is said that bad habits gained early on are the hardest to eradicate.

I did detect some improvement with the Yamaha grand but your last video sounded very much like your first.

What happened? You made two steps forward and three steps back.

We honestly can't tell much from your last video because there is not one good unison, some of them worse than your first video.

I can appreciate how the Lord protected you on the Yamaha but there is an ancient saying; "Trust Allah, but tie your camel to a tree".

Make your next video just unisons and octaves and please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.

Then you will be taken seriously.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2009952 - 01/06/13 11:33 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
"Trust Allah, but tie your camel to a tree".
Make your next video just unisons and octaves and please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.

На Бога надейся, а сам не плошай
dear rxd, I today really listened carefully and agree with you that not clean unisons and octaves some are not perfect. I will try soon to go back and fix it. In this video I play is not the final version. Later I corrected some things, but the camera was not working more than. But thanks again to you for advice.
Regards, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2012120 - 01/10/13 07:51 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.


Dear rxd,await your verdict
Regards, maxim_tuner


Edited by Maximillyan (01/10/13 07:55 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2012138 - 01/10/13 08:30 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Not only is the piano horribly out of tune with itself but unison's are badly out of tune and the piano is way off from pitch too!!! It is at least 1/4 of a tone or more flat of pitch. Plus, the voicing is not good either.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2012781 - 01/11/13 12:55 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1765
Loc: London, England
Max,

Everything Jerry said applies.

The stage is beautifully dressed and there is some good piano teaching in your area. The whole thing is being let down by the state of the piano.

The piano sounds as though it has potential to be worthy of those young girls who have worked so hard at their playing.

It means going back to basics and that requires self discipline.

I asked you to show me some well tuned unisons. If you give me what I ask for and no more at this stage, we might be able to help you. That, in itself is an excerise in self discipline.

Only by tuning still unisons that stay where you put them can you begin to understand the basics of pin setting. This is extremely important.

Those girls are at a stage where they need their pianos in good condition in order to develop their potemtial as fine musicians. Don't let them down.

Piano tuning and servicing takes practice and is a lifetimes study. You have been sent everything you need to make a fresh start. Step up to the plate and give those people your best.

If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing well.

Practice, practice, practice.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2013080 - 01/11/13 08:52 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2137
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan


Dear rxd,await your verdict
Regards, maxim_tuner
Wow! That was painful! The piano is not in tune. I think some echo and standing waves along with a less than stellar microphone contributed to the pain level, but the thing is pretty bad all on its own.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2013103 - 01/11/13 09:40 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1758
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.


Dear rxd,await your verdict
Regards, maxim_tuner

It sounds pretty good to me, better than the piano that my kids gave their recital on here at some local Univertity, supposedly tuned by a top notch local RPT.

The unisons are quite lively, and I think it sounds good like that. Who wants a static note? Listen to the cantabile section at 11:00: all the beats create a nice texture.

Of course voicing can not be judged from an amateur recording.

Just my musical opinion.

Kees

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#2013206 - 01/12/13 04:05 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1765
Loc: London, England
[/quote]
It sounds pretty good to me, better than the piano that my kids gave their recital on here at some local Univertity, supposedly tuned by a top notch local RPT.

The unisons are quite lively, and I think it sounds good like that. Who wants a static note? Listen to the cantabile section at 11:00: all the beats create a nice texture.

Of course voicing can not be judged from an amateur recording.

Just my musical opinion.

Kees [/quote]

Fascinating.

Kees, You write so eloquently about the mathematical niceties of fine tuning that I find it incongruous you should make the above statement.

I am not criticising your musical taste, acceptance of this style of tuning is very common and I know tuners who make a good lIving tuning this way, I even hired one but I have told that story before. I am not denying that there is a strong profitable market for it. My own stepfather who encouraged my interest in music, while he spent many evenings at the opera and symphony hall, often travelling hundreds of miles to catch an important performance, something I do myself now. He was generous with his time and money toward local music societies and yet he preferred his piano tuned this way or some of the many degrees of it. fortunately, we had our piano tuned 4 times a year by a competent tuner as I was growing up but when I left home, it got neglected and he preferred it that way so I never had to do the obligatory tuning whenever I went home.

The temperament chosen is of almost no consequence in this style of tuning but Max is appealing to us for an assessment of his temperament. We cannot give a
this assessment until the unisons are clean enough for us to make the aural distinctions that seem to only exist on paper to many theoretists, including yourself, as it comes to light.

There is a more refined style of tuning that is the only style found acceptable in major concert halls and sound studios. Its purity is often described as sterility but this is true of many art forms. Only in this purity can a temperament be ascertained.

The vast majority, it appears, cannot recognise the sound of a piano that has been tuned in this refined style. It seems to be an aquired taste.

Questions for anybody....Would you pay for a tuning like Max's on your piano?. Would you know the difference purely by listening?. If you can't hear the difference, is it fair to raise your kids to not know the difference?? (some kids have the acuity of hearing and develop the recognition skills naturally).

Your contribution here is valuable in that it brings this important aspect into focus and I thank you for once again substantiating the wisdom in the quote from Mr. Berra that accompanies all my posts.




Edited by rxd (01/12/13 09:59 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarity
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2013356 - 01/12/13 10:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1758
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.

Kees

Top
#2013399 - 01/12/13 11:53 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Originally Posted By: rxd

It sounds pretty good to me, better than the piano that my kids gave their recital on here at some local Univertity, supposedly tuned by a top notch local RPT.

The unisons are quite lively, and I think it sounds good like that. Who wants a static note? Listen to the cantabile section at 11:00: all the beats create a nice texture.

Of course voicing can not be judged from an amateur recording.

Just my musical opinion.

Kees [/quote]

Fascinating.

Kees, You write so eloquently about the mathematical niceties of fine tuning that I find it incongruous you should make the above statement.

I am not criticising your musical taste, acceptance of this style of tuning is very common and I know tuners who make a good lIving tuning this way, I even hired one but I have told that story before. I am not denying that there is a strong profitable market for it. My own stepfather who encouraged my interest in music, while he spent many evenings at the opera and symphony hall, often travelling hundreds of miles to catch an important performance, something I do myself now. He was generous with his time and money toward local music societies and yet he preferred his piano tuned this way or some of the many degrees of it. fortunately, we had our piano tuned 4 times a year by a competent tuner as I was growing up but when I left home, it got neglected and he preferred it that way so I never had to do the obligatory tuning whenever I went home.

The temperament chosen is of almost no consequence in this style of tuning but Max is appealing to us for an assessment of his temperament. We cannot give a
this assessment until the unisons are clean enough for us to make the aural distinctions that seem to only exist on paper to many theoretists, including yourself, as it comes to light.

There is a more refined style of tuning that is the only style found acceptable in major concert halls and sound studios. Its purity is often described as sterility but this is true of many art forms. Only in this purity can a temperament be ascertained.

The vast majority, it appears, cannot recognise the sound of a piano that has been tuned in this refined style. It seems to be an aquired taste.

Questions for anybody....Would you pay for a tuning like Max's on your piano?. Would you know the difference purely by listening?. If you can't hear the difference, is it fair to raise your kids to not know the difference?? (some kids have the acuity of hearing and develop the recognition skills naturally).

Your contribution here is valuable in that it brings this important aspect into focus and I thank you for once again substantiating the wisdom in the quote from Mr. Berra that accompanies all my posts.


[/quote]

Nicely written rxd.

I have found over the years and many people here in PW fit into this category, that in many cases, many of the tuners in here can't hear worth a crap. They all claim that they can but when comments such as I like the unisons out of tune come forth and they like it that way; all that tells me is that they cannot get them clean themselves. It also tells me that they are not all that experienced as they lead us to believe with attempting to get clean unisons and, it tells me that they have not had much experience with truly good, concert artists that they, themselves can hear the difference between in and out of tune. Most of which want pure unison's not out of tune ones.

Even with a bad recording, that tuning is easy to hear as is the bad voicing on it.

As for the question would I hire someone like that to tune my piano? Absolutely uquivocally NO WAY! I have a reputation to uphold. smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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