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#2148820 - 09/12/13 02:56 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Before I write anything, Polyphonist, since you highlighted the chromatic descent in that section, would that affect how you play that passage? If so, are there particular things you would do with it?

Not really, but this is a rare case. It's important to be aware of it, since it will enhance your overall understanding of the section, and you may unconsciously reveal it to the listener as well. In the Chopin passage I posted, I would definitely bring out the inner line; it would be stupid not to.
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#2148835 - 09/12/13 03:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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I don't find labelling things as "stupid" to be helpful, and especially not when it refers to performance choices that participants in, or readers of, this thread might or might not make.
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#2148838 - 09/12/13 03:23 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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Clearly, this is my opinion, although a well-informed one. Feel free to accent whichever notes you want when you play those bars.
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#2148847 - 09/12/13 03:32 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Of course it's your opinion, and I don't question that it's well-informed. If you don't understand why I object to the word "stupid" in how that opinion is expressed, I'm not sure I can explain further.

[ETA: This has nothing to do with how I would choose to perform the piece -- I probably would accent those notes as well, now that you have pointed them out.

This way to try to explain occurs to me: by labelling things stupid, it can lead participants to feel that their contributions to the thread may also be labelled stupid. That has a chilling effect on conversation and learning and sharing.]


Edited by PianoStudent88 (09/12/13 03:36 PM)
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#2148850 - 09/12/13 03:36 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: keystring
Before I write anything, Polyphonist, since you highlighted the chromatic descent in that section, would that affect how you play that passage? If so, are there particular things you would do with it?

Not really, but this is a rare case. It's important to be aware of it, since it will enhance your overall understanding of the section, and you may unconsciously reveal it to the listener as well. In the Chopin passage I posted, I would definitely bring out the inner line; it would be stupid not to.


How about the notes that I highlighted when first trying to answer your poorly-understood question? Would you bring any of those out?

Here is how I perceive that section, and I have to start before the part that you did:
There is a dim7 thingy starting at m. 32 which goes down several octaves. It shifts to something else at measure 37. Here we have the figure: D#, C#, B# in m.37. It repeats in m. 38 - D#, C#, B# in m. 38. Then in m. 39 it changes to D, C#, B#. This is significant.

But you actually should look at the dim7 chord, because if it had continued, you would hit the D#, and you expect it to continue as D# , B#, A.... Instead the next note after D# is C# and that continual cascade down the diminished chord is stopped. The D# in m. 37 is still in pairs, but the C# that follows has broken that rhythm, and we start with triplets.

That is how I see it as a big picture, and that is what would guide part of my interpretation and "orientation to the big picture" if you will.


Edited by keystring (09/12/13 07:36 PM)

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#2148851 - 09/12/13 03:37 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Of course it's your opinion, and I don't question that it's well-informed. If you don't understand why I object to the word "stupid" in how that opinion is expressed, I'm not sure I can explain further.

[ETA: This way to try to explain occurs to me: by labelling things stupid, it can lead participants to feel that their contributions to the thread may also be labelled stupid. That has a chilling effect on conversation and learning and sharing.]

I am not going to call anyone or anything stupid, for any reason, unless it is. ha (Being a beginner or not knowing something is not the same thing as being stupid.)

And calling a person stupid and an interpretation of something stupid are two vastly different things. smile
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#2148852 - 09/12/13 03:38 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: keystring
Before I write anything, Polyphonist, since you highlighted the chromatic descent in that section, would that affect how you play that passage? If so, are there particular things you would do with it?

Not really, but this is a rare case. It's important to be aware of it, since it will enhance your overall understanding of the section, and you may unconsciously reveal it to the listener as well. In the Chopin passage I posted, I would definitely bring out the inner line; it would be stupid not to.


How about the notes that I highlighted when first trying to answer your poorly-understood question? Would you bring any of those out?

Here is how I perceive that section, and I have to start before the part that you did:
There is a dim7 thingy starting at m. 32 which goes down several octaves. It shifts to something else at measure 37. Here we have the figure: D#, C#, B# in m.37. It repeats in m. 38 - D#, C#, B# in m. 38. Then in m. 39 it changes to D, C#, B#. This is significant.

But you actually should look at the dim7 chord, because if it had continued, you would hit the D#, and you expect it to continue as D# , B#, A#.... Instead the next note after D# is C# and that continual cascade down the diminished chord is stopped. The D# in m. 37 is still in pairs, but the C# that follows has broken that rhythm, and we start with triplets.

That is how I see it as a big picture, and that is what would guide part of my interpretation and "orientation to the big picture" if you will.

Just a minute. It looks like there's plenty of substance to this post, but I don't have a score with me at the moment. I will look at it when I get home. smile
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#2148853 - 09/12/13 03:39 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I am not going to call anyone or anything stupid, for any reason, unless it is. ha (Being a beginner or not knowing something is not the same thing as being stupid.)

And calling a person stupid and an interpretation of something stupid are two vastly different things. smile

I didn't say people would be called stupid, I said their contributions might be called stupid. Their interpretations, for example.

This is not humorous to me, so I find your smiley to be bizarre.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (09/12/13 03:40 PM)
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#2148858 - 09/12/13 03:43 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
dire tonic Offline
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In my copy of the music which came free with my Casio piano, all the notes in question - those deserving emphasis - have the double stems - i.e. the up stems shared with the other triplets together with the "pick these notes out" down stems. Isn't this the case with other editions?

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#2148860 - 09/12/13 03:46 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
dire tonic Offline
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I think 'stupid' implies a missed opportunity. It's a slighty stupid way of saying it.


... in the context. One might say "i'd be stupid not to..."

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#2148954 - 09/12/13 05:47 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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A quick apology for not participating (actually even keeping up with the posts) in the discussion of late. Particularly so, after rallying the troops to do so.

I'm delighted though to see the activity here and so many new folks contributing.

I will endeavor to get caught up soon, but have had engagements nearly every night this week (unexpected) and not letting up yet. Meanwhile, I'm reading when I am able to, and very interested in the discussion ... Thank you.
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#2149166 - 09/13/13 02:03 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring


How about the notes that I highlighted when first trying to answer your poorly-understood question? Would you bring any of those out?

Here is how I perceive that section, and I have to start before the part that you did:
There is a dim7 thingy starting at m. 32 which goes down several octaves. It shifts to something else at measure 37. Here we have the figure: D#, C#, B# in m.37. It repeats in m. 38 - D#, C#, B# in m. 38. Then in m. 39 it changes to D, C#, B#. This is significant.

But you actually should look at the dim7 chord, because if it had continued, you would hit the D#, and you expect it to continue as D# , B#, A.... Instead the next note after D# is C# and that continual cascade down the diminished chord is stopped. The D# in m. 37 is still in pairs, but the C# that follows has broken that rhythm, and we start with triplets.

That is how I see it as a big picture, and that is what would guide part of my interpretation and "orientation to the big picture" if you will.

This whole section is at least part of a loose development section. I'm not going to get into whether or not the first movement is sonata form, loose-sonata form, or something related to sonata form.

You have a series of diminished chords.

The first is B# D# F# A, the next Fx A# C# E, then back to the first. In between you have C#m/G#. But because G# is struck again and again, it serves as something of a pedal tone effect. And always B# D# F# A over the G# bass forms G#7b9, a very powerful dominant effect in the key of C# minor.

As Beethoven closes this section, he is still playing around with the B# D# F# A, still with the G# bass and forming G#7b9 right before he cadences to A then D#m7b5/F# OR F#m6 then G# G#7 and home.

All this makes a sense of hits own, but it is the D natural that I would accentuate greatly by echoing it, still bringing it out but softer, because all of as sudden for just a moment it gives you a D/G# sound, still the G# bass, but with a D chord, then moving to F#/G then back to the diminished or flat 9 chord.

To me that D chord and the D that is double stemmed shows things. First, all those double-stemmed notes are important and need to be heard clearly. Second, you have to do something with that D natural, because it is spectacularly yet subtly dissonant, and it sounds to me like a moan, or a sigh, or at least something very sad.
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#2149171 - 09/13/13 02:22 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Gary D.]
dire tonic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.

All this makes a sense of hits own, but it is the D natural that I would accentuate greatly by echoing it, still bringing it out but softer, because all of as sudden for just a moment it gives you a D/G# sound, still the G# bass, but with a D chord, then moving to F#/G then back to the diminished or flat 9 chord.

To me that D chord and the D that is double stemmed shows things. First, all those double-stemmed notes are important and need to be heard clearly. Second, you have to do something with that D natural, because it is spectacularly yet subtly dissonant, and it sounds to me like a moan, or a sigh, or at least something very sad.


The D nat - that's a great tip.

Thanks for the post...nice to have something to get the teeth into!

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#2149308 - 09/13/13 09:16 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Destroying the composer's intention is almost as bad as changing notes in my opinion.


Somewhat agree, but would like to ask. Why do we have to be true to the composer's intention?

Their job is done, they are dead now, and where is the rule book about this?

New arrangements and radical interpretation changes are common in modern music. Are they frowned upon with classical?
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#2149317 - 09/13/13 09:38 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
dire tonic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greener
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Destroying the composer's intention is almost as bad as changing notes in my opinion.


Somewhat agree, but would like to ask. Why do we have to be true to the composer's intention?



Good question. Actually, these days I've got into to the habit of slipping in at least one maverick phrase per piece in order to try and frustrate YT's annoying habit of falsely detecting "matched third-party content".

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#2149355 - 09/13/13 11:09 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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I've started playing through this movement, and discover that physically interacting with the score and the music, even hesitantly, allows me to hear it better than just listening to a recording, even if I listen with the score. In the recording it all sounds seamless, but when I play it I can hear subtle changes happening in the harmony. I can't really hear the meaning of the changes, but I can tell he was doing one thing and then a few beats later he's shifted it a little bit.
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#2149823 - 09/14/13 01:58 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
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Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Greener
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Destroying the composer's intention is almost as bad as changing notes in my opinion.


Somewhat agree, but would like to ask. Why do we have to be true to the composer's intention?

Their job is done, they are dead now, and where is the rule book about this?

New arrangements and radical interpretation changes are common in modern music. Are they frowned upon with classical?


I was thinking about this a little more.

In the light of Godowsky's wholesale note-changing/adding to Schubert's 94/3 can I press you, PP, to say what you think of it?

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#2149949 - 09/14/13 10:17 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Gary D.]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.
This whole section is at least part of a loose development section. I'm not going to get into whether or not the first movement is sonata form, loose-sonata form, or something related to sonata form.

You have a series of diminished chords.

The first is B# D# F# A, the next Fx A# C# E, then back to the first. In between you have C#m/G#.


Yes. I used the silly wording "diminished thingy" because it stays diminished, even if which diminished chord is being played changes. Of course a diminished chord has an unsettled feeling - it wants to go somewhere - so this whole section has a sense of heightened tension. That is why when it finally settles down there is a feeling of relief, and right at that feeling of relief we also hear the refrain from the very beginning coming back.

Quote:

But because G# is struck again and again, it serves as something of a pedal tone effect. And always B# D# F# A over the G# bass forms G#7b9, a very powerful dominant effect in the key of C# minor.

Indeed, that repeated G# gives me a feeling of waiting for C# minor to come back.
Quote:

As Beethoven closes this section, he is still playing around with the B# D# F# A, still with the G# bass and forming G#7b9 right before he cadences to A then D#m7b5/F# OR F#m6 then G# G#7 and home.

The A is the point where I feel the tension let up. And the D natural and the shift in melody that is the harbinger of that change.

Polyphonist asked in terms of melody. One of the things for me is that during the spate of broken diminished chords there isn't a melody. Then suddenly the tail end of the last dim chord becomes a melody. That melody is repeated and then it changes and both the fact of a melody emerging, and the the change in the melody are powerful things. I cannot bring myself to only think of the notes D# D C# B# because to me there is more to it than just a chromatic descent.

To me that section starts at the diminished, because the diminished melts into that melody, and then the melody shape-shifts or changes its colour, all of it bringing us home.
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
All this makes a sense of hits own, but it is the D natural that I would accentuate greatly by echoing it, still bringing it out but softer...


Hm, both bring out a note, and softer --- I see a subtle lengthening or linger in bringing it out. (?)

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#2149951 - 09/14/13 10:24 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: keystring

Here is how I perceive that section, .....

Just a minute. It looks like there's plenty of substance to this post, but I don't have a score with me at the moment. I will look at it when I get home. smile

Still quite interested in what you will have to say. Your take was more on the melodic side and you brought out that one element, but of course there are so many things in an interplay. For myself I find that one insight will lead me to others.

You have highlighted a significant section.

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#2256837 - 04/04/14 05:03 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: dire tonic]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Any interesting inner voices anyone's found and would like to share? smile


I don't know how far you want to go with this but here's a fabulous feast of inner voices.



Godowsky is a genius, for sure. He made countless arrangements, transcriptions, and paraphrases, all of very high quality. One could even make the case that this particular one exceeds the original.

I was going to write what my favorite sections are, but now I realize I can't because I really like them all. I'll just give one example; the descending RH alto line from 1:40 to 1:46. Beautiful. And then that luscious Brahmsian setting of the return of the first section at 2:01.

Here is the score, for those that want to give it a try.
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#2256859 - 04/04/14 06:02 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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I'm so glad I wasn't waiting for that post! smile
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#2256865 - 04/04/14 06:06 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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I had just been reading over the thread and realized I'd never replied to that post, and since this thread has been dropped and revived many times in the past, I figured why not do it again and fire up some discussion. smile
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#2258096 - 04/07/14 11:06 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
dire tonic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Godowsky is a genius, for sure. He made countless arrangements, transcriptions, and paraphrases, all of very high quality. One could even make the case that this particular one exceeds the original.

I was going to write what my favorite sections are, but now I realize I can't because I really like them all. I'll just give one example; the descending RH alto line from 1:40 to 1:46. Beautiful. And then that luscious Brahmsian setting of the return of the first section at 2:01.
I also prefer this to the original. Whenever I listen to Kissin's performance I have to play it a few times - I canít imagine it being bettered. Those two passages in particular are perfect. After hearing it I spent several weeks a while back trying to play it. Hopeless - fingers and brain both knotted in the struggle to remember then maintain the staccato rhythms with the legato melodies. I donít have the technique but Iím going to have another go at this. If anyone is interested, to make it a little easier to focus on the legato Iíve modified the first two pages to highlight Kissinís countermelodies Ė Moment Musical for dummiesÖIf I can get through those Iíll finish the exercise.

Any chance of hearing you play this, PP?

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#2259293 - 04/09/14 07:31 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
Greener Offline

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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
... and since this thread has been dropped and revived many times in the past, I figured why not do it again and fire up some discussion. smile

Well I do intend to work on the 5th. by Liszt (Scherzo) and is a work I actually would prefer to work with a teacher on. Already I've caught stuff I didn't notice at first (thankfully before I memorized wrong) and was not playing right, and will be tricky to get nice.

Are you familiar with this work? I'm quite prepared to spend a long time on this one. Especially since you kindly pointed out I need to learn a whole extra movement smile

Actually, it looks like it gets a bit easier after page 4. Not sure. Also, haven't printed the last movement yet.

I'm up to M34 and will be going no further for a bit ...

I have couple queries if/when ready grin

I can upload the score here if you prefer.
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#2259302 - 04/09/14 08:16 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greener
Are you familiar with this work? ...I can upload the score here if you prefer.

There's no need - I have the score and am quite familiar with it. Query away. grin
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#2259339 - 04/09/14 09:08 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Beautiful. So we start off in double piano ...

bah bah bah bah bahh bah bahh bah bahhhhhh ...

dahh da dahh da dahh da dahhh ...

OK, so backing up to M7; There will be a lot of staccato from here and moving forward correct? That is what these indications above the notes beginning in m7 are.

So how does that work, when I have a whole chord here being held for 2 beats. Is the staccato always applied to the entire chord? And if so, how do I do that when it is being held for TWO BEATS.

And what is this upsidedown new moon above m8? also forgot what poco rit is --while we are in this area-- and then un poco rit.

It gets more interesting, from a playing perspective at m19-m20.

BOOM double forte now.

This is tricky and what i nearly missed, and there will be a lot of it I think. Maybe not ...

M20 - Only the octave is held 3 beats, everything else one beat. Same thing M22,M24,M26. And the alternating measures I'll have to watch closely as well. Lots of practice ahead.

Anyway, I mostly need to get the staccato (if that is what this is) figured out, and how to apply in all the instances I am going to be coming across.

Lastly (for now,) any suggestions for M33 1st beat chord? LH is a stretch when including the Bb and will be tough to play clean at tempo.
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#2259343 - 04/09/14 09:16 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greener
OK, so backing up to M7; There will be a lot of staccato from here and moving forward correct? That is what these indications above the notes beginning in m7 are.

So how does that work, when I have a whole chord here being held for 2 beats. Is the staccato always applied to the entire chord? And if so, how do I do that when it is being held for TWO BEATS.

It's actually portato, not staccato, which basically means detached. So just make sure to leave some space in between the notes. It doesn't need to be a full staccato.

Originally Posted By: Greener
And what is this upsidedown new moon above m8? also forgot what poco rit is --while we are in this area-- and then un poco rit.

The new moon is a fermata - it means to hold the note for longer than its value. poco rit is an abbreviation for poco ritardando, or "slow down a little."

Originally Posted By: Greener
Lastly (for now,) any suggestions for M33 1st beat chord? LH is a stretch when including the Bb and will be tough to play clean at tempo.

You can play the Bb and Db both with your thumb. It's a neat trick and very handy in these types of situations.


Hope that helped. smile
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#2259348 - 04/09/14 09:20 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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It did, it does, more later. thx.
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#2259351 - 04/09/14 09:21 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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I wonder if I should learn this transcription.
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#2259361 - 04/09/14 09:34 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Wait, one more thing.

So if this is Portato, then what is staccato?

I believe they are indicated the same way, yes? So how would one know the difference?
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