Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1


Yes, I am enjoying it too . OK Bm7-5 works for me now and all fixed. I am still nervous about using -note notations when there are other alternatives without them. But, I had not been thinking of the progression to E, so this makes perfect sense now. As far as hitting the correct bass note ... I threw this logic out the window during the Moonlight Sonata. Perhaps I will resurrect it though.
__________________________



Splendid idea. I look forward to hearing and will watch for it. So, you better get busy.



Nope. All ready to roll with Freddy ...

Fryderyk Chopin - Nocturne in E Flat Major, Op.9 No.2

I will try not to jump too far ahead until everyone is ready to proceed. But, just to get things started with this Nocturne;

I see this as being in binary format:

A - M1 - M4

A - M5 - M8 (with lead note from M4)

B - M9 - M12 (with lead notes from M8)

A - M13 - M16

B - M17 - M20 (with lead notes from M16)

A - M21 - M24

C - M25 - M33 (coda)

So, three themes of which the coda is one and AABABAC format.

Also, here is another interpretation/performance. Personally, I prefer this understated expression of Artur, better. Although, I never mind watching Valentina

Fryderyk Chopin - Nocturne in E Flat Major, Op.9 No.2

The coda figure in the first measure, and then repeated -- Eb, three notes, G -- is like an inversion of the opening of the A section (ignoring the pickup note) -- G, three notes, Eb.

Chopin varies the melody in the A and B figures each time around, sometimes with slight changes of rhythm, sometimes with different fioritura-like passages.

Harmonically, there are places with V7-I sequences in various keys (but never so final as to be a cadence, except when in Eb), and an entire V7-vi-ii-V7-I progression that is repeated at the end of the B section, e.g. mm.12-13, first in Bb and then in Eb, but I wouldn't say the piece ever really changes key.

The first time I looked at a Chopin nocturne I couldn't find any pattern in it at all. Analysing this one, the AABABAC pattern jumped out pretty quickly. I wonder if I went back to whatever that first nocturne was, I would find a pattern. Oh, wait, I don't think it was a nocturne. I think it was the Prelude in C# minor, the famous one that's used in the movie The Pianist. Still, I'm wondering if I would find the patterns this time.

A prelude is nominally a harmonic progression and doesn't usually have a pattern.

I prefer to think of this nocturne as ABB form.

You have all the four bar phrases to M32 plus the last two measures but I see A as M1-8 and B as M9-16 and M17-25 with the coda at M25.

I don't see any section as being more difficult than the rest except the stretto in octaves in M30-32 and the timeless trill. I have the climax at the start of M24. The fioriture, trills and other ornaments will need careful practise so as not to dominate their surroundings by being uneven, struck too hard or losing clarity by being smudged.

There are four markings of Tempo primo so rubato is at work here but it's important to practise this with a metronome and make sure the speeding up and slowing down doesn't bring the basic rhythm into a distortion of itself.

There are some off beat accents to be observed (some not easy to spot, e.g. M16) and some very careful phrasing marks. We have clearly left the Baroque and entered a world where playing from the score needs acute awareness of the instructions and will benefit from detailed observation prior to the first visit to the bench.

Exactly what we have this analysis thread for!

Ha ha! So the harmonic analysis of a prelude would be of prime importance? <snicker snicker>

/s/Ms. Harmonic Analysis of Tunbridge Wells,
Green Ink Division

It wasn't when we did the Bach or the Chopin Preludes.

Unless I'm working out the chords in a rock song, and sometimes not even then, a harmonic analysis is always of lesser importance for me than a structural, thematic, melodic or rhythmic analysis. Unless the song is by The Beatles, Bob Dylan or similar it might be more important than a lyrical analysis.

I look for the key changes more than the chord changes. Only if it looks or sounds interesting do I investigate further.

It was to me!


I can't tell if it looks interesting until after I've done the analysis. I can tell some very dramatic effects that sound interesting, but I can't hear much of other things that seems interesting unless I do the full analysis: for example I can't hear many key changes, and in any case for the effects I do hear and want to analyze, I then find I also want to analyze surrounding material, up to the whole thing, to see how this interesting sounding part is different from the other parts.

If I had not exhaustively analyzed all six of the Clementi sonatinas, with roman numerals and secondary dominants and multiple slash notation and everything, I would not be aware of the way that how Chopin deploys his chords is different from how Clementi deploys them.


All things that I could improve at! Think how different I would be if "harmonic analysis" had not been the first and only music theory course I've taken.

Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1

Just one more post on this one (well, as far as chords go at least.) May as well finish up though, as just a few remaining.

M32 - Am
I just want to call this entire measure Am. It passes through Am6 Am7 and ends on Am6 ... so I'm happy with just Am . This is a tricky little area.

M33 - Em/B,,B7
M34 - Em/B,,B7
M35 - Em,Am6/E,Em,B7
M36 - Em,Am6/E,Em,B7,Em
M37 - M40 - Em

These octaves are killing me. My left arm feels like it is going to fall off. So, happy to start playing something else for a little while.

Nocturne in E Flat Major, Op.9 No.2



No idea what many of the terms are indicating:

Andante; Moderately Slow Tempo

espr. dolce; Expressive in a gentle, sweet manner

dolciss: ?

f; loud

p,pp,ppp; soft to very soft

Not sure of all the combinations:
Ie: sfp (for this little phrase it is loud to soft?)
mf: moderate forte?

simile: ?

sempre pp; ?

poco rit., poco rall., poco rubato; ?

a tempo; (speed up, slow down or does it just mean we can change tempo here?)

stretto; ?

con forza; ?

senza; ?

smorz.; ?

I'm sure there is much more, but this would cover this piece, I think.

Nocturne in E Flat Major, Op.9 No.2

Andante; Moderately Slow Tempo.  Andante means "walking".

espr. dolce; Expressive in a gentle, sweet manner

dolciss: short for dolcissimo: very gentle and sweet

sfp: sforzando piano: sforzando stands for "subito forzando" which means "suddenly with force", that is, "make a sudden accent"  "sfp" stands for "sforzando piano" which means "suddenly with force (or accented) and then soft immediately after."

mf: mezzo-forte: medium loud, between forte and piano

simile: in the same way, likewise.    Continue the pattern established, for example in pedaling, or in staccato, etc.

sempre pp; sempre means "always" so sempre pianissimo means "always very soft" "continue very soft"

poco rit., poco rall., poco rubato; "poco" means "a little" so:
poco ritardando: slow down a little
poco rallentando: slow down a little
poco rubato: with a little bit of rubato

a tempo; literally "at tempo".  It means "return to the original tempo"

stretto; literally "narrow".  Musical meaning as an expression mark is to go faster.  (It's also a term for a section of a fugue where the statements overlap, but that's not its meaning here.)

con forza; with force

senza; without.  In my score that seems to be part of the phrase "senza tempo" meaning "without time", that is play this passage freely rather than counted.

smorz.; smorzando: gradually slow down and get softer

Nocturne in E Flat Major, Op.9 No.2

Beautiful, and all in one neat package now. Thanks so much, Teach.

Nocturne in E Flat Major, Op.9 No.2


I recommend a dictionary of musical terms if you don't speak know Italian (or Latin). Some terms don't mean what they look like. We met, just the other day, Tempo giusto, just time, not with gusto!


Andante = Walking speed. Sometimes this is walking along the beach speed and other times walking to the bus stop. If it's Lee Marvin's walk at the beginning of Point Blank there should be some other direction.

Esspressivo dolce = Sweetly expressive, as sweet, tender not sweet, wheedling.

dolcissimo = Very sweet (tender)

F, FF, FFF = Forte, fortissimo, fortississimo: loud, very loud, loudest

Piano, pianissimmo, pianississimo: soft, very soft, softest

sfz = sforzando: strongly accented or forced
sfp = fzp = sforzando followed immediately by piano.

mf = mezzo forte, moderately loud

simile: the same (as before, likewise)

sempre = always

poco = a little

a tempo = in time, usu. after a rit, rall or accel.

does it just mean we can change tempo here? No, the opposite.

stretto = quicker (stringing the notes closer together). The marking of stretto, as here, is usu. the build-up to the final climax. The (unmarked) stretto in a fugue is where the answer to the subject (not the countersubject) begins before all voices have completed the subject.

con = with; forza = force

senza = without

smorz. = smorzando, gradually dying away (from morire, to die, mortal, morbid, mortuary).

ETA: Ooh! I see I'm late - must drink coffee quicker!

MENDELSSOHN OP.85 NO.2
in A minor

In 3 Parts;
Part I: M 1-11
Part II: M 12-24
Part IIIa: M 24-42
Part IIIb: M 43-47

Measure 1

Treble Cleff
Beat 1: C (Melody note)
Beat 2: c
Beat 3: E
Beat 4: B (Melody note)

Bass Cleff

Beat 1: A
Beat 2:
Beat 3:
Beat 4: G#

All the notes contained in measure 1 are all contained in A minor major 9

Measure 2
would it be best to split these measures in half?

Treble Cleff

Beat 1: D (Melody note)
Beat 2: E
Beat 3: G#
Beat 4: C (Melody note)

Bass Cleff

Beat 1: B
Beat 2:
Beat 3:
Beat 4: A

A minor major 11?

Treble cleff

Beat 5: E (Melody note)
Beat 6: F
Beat 7: A
Beat 8: B (Melody note)

Bass Cleff

Beat 5: D
Beat 6:
Beat 7:
Beat 8: B

D minor 6 add 9?

I'm using the Ditson edition

"link removed"

Never thought to actually read it lol

About Sonates and Sonatines......

Try these......
Georg Benda

Best regards,

Johan B

Ditson doesn't have bar numbers, Wayne, and the numbers you're using aren't clear.

I have only 45 bars. There's a half bar up-beat or anacrusis. The first full measure starts on D.

I thought, when first looked at it that it was a variation of Stairway to Heaven then I saw the phrase marks!

A is the first phrase, or two half phrases, M1-4 is then repeated with a different close, which is itself repeated and finishes in M10.

B begins with a crescendo at the second half of M10, 2 + 1 + 1 + 4 finishing in M18. This last four measure phrase is again repeated (same in RH, new LH) in M18-22. This is 'B' and is in E minor.

A returns in M22-26.

M26 begins a chromatic rise to what I think is the climax in M32 and/or M36 ending with a codetta in M38-41 and the actual coda in M41-45.

How helpful are the chord names to you while you are playing?

M1-4 is a simple melody C-D-F-c, E-B-G#-B. This is then repeated in 5-8, and the last half-phrase again in M10-12.

M10 begins B-A-C-G#, C-G#, F-E, B-G-E-D-E-B-A-G, B-G-D-E-B-E.

Add the quavers when you've got the main theme (and the penultimate D# crotchet in M21).

How are you getting on with playing this?

I would guess that M1-10 is not too difficult for you, apart from the tempo, but that M10-22 is harder with the LH breaking into chords and changing the rhythm in M16 and M18. How hard are the chords in M17 and M19?

M30-38 shouldn't be difficult after M10-22, they're pretty much (but not exactly) the same but back in tonic.

M38-41 are just a repeat an octave lower and the final coda is a cakewalk by comparison.

M10-M14 would be my first visit. Any two bar phrase from M1 to M12 would do to get the rhythm going. The rest is the same with different notes. M14-16 next and M16-M18 is pretty much the end of the piece, technique wise.

It matters not whether you do these measures or their parallels but get one variant right before you start learning another set of notes. There's no point confusing yourself. How well do you memorise or are you a reader?

Ignoring the theory and going back to my initial questions, where are you with this, in practical terms, and what is the biggest or most immediate difficulty?

Mendelssohn 85/2

Wayne, do you notice how the melody in part I is written in the treble clef, with stems up? Can you find a similar set of notes -- treble clef, stems up -- in part II?

What is the rhythmic pattern for most of the melody?

(cross-posted.)

I'll get bk to you guys, I need to think about this

Ah thnx,

Mendelssohn, 85/2

I've just seen your other post in the Mendelssohn thread, Wayne.

So you've got M1-10 memorised or close to.

Keep practising M1-4 bringing out the melody, now that you have it. The speed at which you do this is completely unimportant. Once you have it the speed will come faster than you might expect. But it's important that you wait for it to come from frequent repetitions at a manageable speed and not trying to force it.

Bear in mind throughout that this is a song without words - and therefore it is meaningless with the melody line. Practise playing those two accompanying notes whisper quiet while you "shape" the phrase. This is 2/2 so the first note takes the strong accent, the fifth note of the bar takes a weak accent. The other three notes in each half measure are without accent but the melody, and bass, are louder than the two harmony notes.

It would be rather basic to make each melody note louder the higher it is on the staff - but it would still work. This can continue up through each climax except the actual climax notes marked with an accent or sF (the first notes in M33, M34, M37 and, in the bass, M38 and 39. The second climax at M37 is part of the climbdown for me, so slightly less than M33.

Leave M5-8 until M1-4 is flowing. Then do these three sections, each in isolation M1-4, M5-8, M8-10 until they're easy at a steady tempo, around 44-48 bpm (two beats per bar) then join them together.

M10-22 I would practise on different days because of the change in the accompaniment to descending notes instead of rising. Stick with M10-14 as one unit for a few repetitions. Include the Upper B in RH and the lower D# in LH of M14.

Start with those two notes for the next section, M14 to the first beat of M17.

Keep M17-18 isolated until it's well absorbed, fluent and memorised (if you memorise your pieces).

Only when these three parts are flowing would I learn M18-22 and join all four parts together, M10-22.

M26-34 will be easy once you've got those first two sections up to half tempo. Likewise the finish, M34-41.

If you've got M1-22 almost memorised already you're not going to have problem with this, Wayne, by the time the recital comes. M14-18/M30-34 is about as hard as this piece gets.

Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1


Chords are fine and opinions are equalled in M32 but also in M35 & M36.

Octaves killing you? Shoulder from the leaps or hand from the stretch? Are you getting tension there? Are you able to relax both hand and arm between strikes?

Mendelssohn, Op. 102 No. 1

I think it is the stretch. Clearly an octave is not a big stretch. But, the repetition and the intermingling with other intervals is taking its toll. I'm trying to relax as best I can, but my left arm and hand is really staring to seize up. I having a hard time tpyeing this .

For example, left arm felt fine this morning. But, after 15 minutes on this piece I was feeling it again. I didn't do much work on this one today.

I think I've been over doing the practice a bit. It is actually a welcome relief to go back and work on polishing up the Schubert. It's a breeze in comparison.

I started on piano with songs like Come Back To Sorrento, Because, and songs from musicals like The Desert Song - that's all there was in the piano stool. Most of these featured a bass octave on the first beat and chords after. I'm not qualified to diagnose or solve the problem but the way I play this sort of thing is to plop/drop a relaxed arm onto the keys with the hand shaping the chord/octave at the last moment then drawing the hand up relaxed. It came naturally to me from watching my dad play rags.

The word on the street forum is that tension leads to RSI, tendinitis and so on. A one time early consultation with a piano tutor might cost less than a later one with a medical practitioner.

Unless you carry an awful lot of bling on your wrist you should be able to do stride for a one to two hour set.

Acknowledged. Perhaps time to seek out some professional in person coaching.

I don't think stride is the problem, but relaxing enough as you mention above, likely is. I've played plenty of stride without issue. But not like this. Normally it is bass (just bass note, or with 5th or 7th,) chord, bass, chord etc. This is a little more activity then that in the left hand; octave, chord, chord, octave, octave, chord, chord (with only a few variations) and at a much brisker tempo then I am accustomed for stride.

Just playing the work, when it is MUCH BETTER rehearsed won't be a problem. But practicing it for long durations has compiled the problem to the point that it is a problem. Hopefully, just a temporary one.

I'm really slow at reading, so I just memorise everything

No problem, Wayne. I'll type future posts really slowly!

Chopin Nocturne in E flat, Op. 9 No. 2

We've identified the sections even if we've chosen to name them differently. Regardless of any harmonic analysis we're analysing this with a view to performance so the first step in my plan is to decide which sections appear to be the hardest, where there are any technical difficulties that are likely to beset us and whether or not we can read the score.

M27 is the only measure that exceeds three ledger lines but M30&31 are scraping their knuckles there. You might want to check what notes are being used here and and how you might remember them.

There's a polyrhythmic 4 vs 3 in M18. If it's a tricky ryhthm for you you can use a phrase such as 'just before you offer more' with LH taking the bold notes.

The fioriture in M16 and M24 will need slow and careful practise. How I tackle these is to play the RH slow enough to distinguish the final triplet in M16 and the mix of quaver, semiquavers and demisemiquavers in M18. As the notes, phrase, articulation and accent marks are absorbed and the LH chords are placed carefully I let the tempo come up until the LH is in time with the surrounding beats. You may have your own way of tackling these.

The most awkward patch of accidentals occurs in M12 and 20. The measures are identical and don't pose a problem in the realisation.

There are a number of ornaments that will require isolated practise, some finicky phrasing that might thwart a good reader and the ability to read while making accurate leaps will be tested especially in M30-31 where right and left hand skipping and leaping independently. If you're the type to tackle a score hardest part first then M30 and 31 is where to begin.

The extended trill in M32 is not as difficult as a first attempt might suggest. I surprised myself when I first relinquished control of the notes and the fingers went on automatic pilot. I don't count the repetitions but merely start the final descent when the speed has fallen the right amount.

That covers just about all the main difficulties. We can cover the phrasing and other markings on a sequential pass through. Here's the first four bars.

M1-4
Four one measure phrases. I'll start by drawing your attention to the phrase marks in the LH of M1 and similar. After the bass note the following two chords are played in a legato sweep, 5-2 for the first chord and 4-2-1 for the second. You can loop the first measure while you get the hang of this if it doesn't feel natural.

While the LH has four dynamic layers the melody sings clearly above it. The turn in M2 is easy to overdo. Don't snatch at it but try to spread the notes evenly without slowing down in LH. Note the Forte and the break in legato for the last three notes of the phrase in M4.

Just to let you all know that I am following the Nocturne analysis with great interest. Whether I participate depends if I notice anything specific. I went out today and bought the Henle edition of the Nocturnes (I know this won't be my last so I want a good edition.) As far as I can tell there are minimal differences between any editions for this piece but if I spot anything I'll report it.

I expect to be working for quite a while on this. I always have problems with ornamentation and leaps and this piece has plenty of both. The turn in measure 2, combined with the leaps in the left hand is causing me enough problems.

I'm spending a lot of time with hands separate. Not really because it's much harder hands together - it's really to get the phrasing right in both hands.

Chopin Nocturne in E flat, Op. 9 No. 2

The legato (smooth even style without a break *) is indicated by the slur above these chords? It is interesting thus, that these markings are only on this measure. I would have thought they would continue throughout the composition. I certainly cannot decipher much difference in LH treatment from M1, to M2 for example.
*I am spelling this out mostly for my own benefit...I needed to go back and look up what legato meant

The notes of the turn are C,D,C,B,C jump ... correct? I can see it would be easy to do a double (mini trill) on the first C,D. Is this what you mean by over doing?

At some point, I will also be interested to also look at the chords for this. While I am learning this type of a piece (LH stride,) it helps me a lot if the chord my LH is jumping to is written as a chord (Abdim7) vs. just the dots on the ledger lines. My hope, at least, is that this translation exercise will also help strengthen my reading.