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#2012977 - 01/11/13 05:37 PM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: KarelG]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3667
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: KarelG
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Upright
In fact there exist grand pianos with longer keys in the bass region.


That is not a typical piano design though. 99.9% of pianos use same length keys.


well, I've seen concert grand August Forster with this design and also C.Bechstein concert grand on their promotional video. So it looks like the design of difference in key lengths is not that un-typical at the end... See AF at least here: http://www.pianos.cz/sites/PIANOS.cz/repository/Image/galerie/images/img1532-large.jpg


They're just part of the 0.1% - and they are concert grands. Most pianos don't do this. Can I inspect one Ferrari and make the conclusion that all cars have a 600hp V12 engine? The statement I was responding to was:

"Do all the keys have the same pivot length? On an acoustic grand they don't. The long bass strings require a deeper strike point, so the overall key length increases from treble to bass."

It is stated as a rule for all pianos. But this is not true. It's only true for a small number of pianos.

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#2012988 - 01/11/13 05:43 PM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: peterws]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3866
Loc: North Carolina
Whether they're all the same length or whether some are slightly longer ... does it really matter? At all?

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#2013032 - 01/11/13 07:12 PM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: MacMacMac]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3667
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Whether they're all the same length or whether some are slightly longer ... does it really matter? At all?


Not really!

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#2013052 - 01/11/13 07:37 PM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: peterws]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I guess once the keys reach a certain length, perhaps further increases wouldn't be very noticable, or at least, not very important. And it's a simple matter of adding mass if we want to duplicate the feel as closely as possible of those huge bass keys & large hammers. Still interesting to know that the key length does vary on some pianos though.

Greg.

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#2013057 - 01/11/13 07:54 PM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: peterws]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
I recall when I asked about key length on the tuner's forum there was some discussion that when keys get long they begin to have too much flexibility, which can make them hard to play. It was a bit of a contentious issue, though, iirc. I think there's probably an optimal length.


Edited by gvfarns (01/11/13 07:55 PM)

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#2013073 - 01/11/13 08:32 PM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: gvfarns]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2746
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I recall when I asked about key length on the tuner's forum there was some discussion that when keys get long they begin to have too much flexibility, which can make them hard to play. It was a bit of a contentious issue, though, iirc. I think there's probably an optimal length.
It's another one of those moving targets because A) its subjective and B) in a complete key strike, it's one of dozens of critical measurements and ratios.

Like string length, there are limits due to material characteristics, but if you change the material, the result becomes foreign and no longer subjectively pleasing.
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#2013237 - 01/12/13 06:03 AM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: PianoWorksATL]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3803
Loc: Northern England.
"when keys get long they begin to have too much flexibility, which can make them hard to play."

I can`t think of any DP where there`s a remote possiblilty o` that happening . . !
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2013285 - 01/12/13 08:37 AM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: sullivang]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
It is even very possible, that the given very long key length on a concert grands are not just for the sake of the playability at all, but as a compromise between playability and the need of having able to place the hammer where it can hit the string in an optimal position.

A given ratio of the two parts before and behind of the hammer point is regarded as optimal for sound quality and intensity.

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#2014221 - 01/14/13 04:11 AM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: ando]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1570
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: ando
[Umm, no....

Have you ever actually seen an acoustic action? If you had, you'd know that the keys are all the same length


I've seen a few, and measured my Knabe. It's 13 1/4" for key #1 (A0) and tapers down to 11 3/8" for key #88 (C8).
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2014285 - 01/14/13 08:25 AM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: JohnSprung]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3667
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
Originally Posted By: ando
[Umm, no....

Have you ever actually seen an acoustic action? If you had, you'd know that the keys are all the same length


I've seen a few, and measured my Knabe. It's 13 1/4" for key #1 (A0) and tapers down to 11 3/8" for key #88 (C8).


It's still in the extreme minority. Most are same length. The weighting of the keys and the heavier hammers account for the heavier response in bass notes. You must have inspected an unusual sequence of actions to have not seen that the vast majority that have the same key length. Or you've mostly seen very large concert grands.

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#2017941 - 01/20/13 04:53 PM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: peterws]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 74
Loc: Uberaba, Minas Gerais, Brazil
James... do you know if the GF action will be on slab kawai DPs?
_________________________
"But its got a crap keyboard action Dave ... no amount of great sounds help that."
Dr. Popper

Piano Student at State Conservatory Renato Frateschi - Uberaba - Minas Gerais - Brazil

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#2017942 - 01/20/13 05:00 PM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: peterws]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9558
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I do know, but cannot comment I'm afraid.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2017990 - 01/20/13 07:02 PM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: peterws]
zapper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/13
Posts: 77
nord stage piano has very long keys.

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#2017992 - 01/20/13 07:04 PM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: zapper]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3667
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: zapper
nord stage piano has very long keys.


?????

I repeat:

?????

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#2018009 - 01/20/13 07:49 PM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: peterws]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 74
Loc: Uberaba, Minas Gerais, Brazil
Actually, I think Fatar's action is very small. I don't feel confortble playing it on kurzweil's boards. I think Yamaha have smaller keys than Roland (MOx8 compared to RD-300NX), but Roland doesn't have a key that can be compared to an acoustic... By the way, the Grand Piano from Anphitheater is a Kawai RX-2. I like those keys, feels just fine, and the length just pleased me, and didn't hurt my hands. Small keys sucks for playing, and doing those boring exercises my teacher ask me to do.
I'm really interested on GF action on a slab piano... If kawai do it, I'll have to wait because the price here is overpriced always... We pay at least 68% more they pay in USA(comparing to dollar).
_________________________
"But its got a crap keyboard action Dave ... no amount of great sounds help that."
Dr. Popper

Piano Student at State Conservatory Renato Frateschi - Uberaba - Minas Gerais - Brazil

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#2018161 - 01/21/13 04:04 AM Re: Digitals with the LONGEST keys . . [Re: Kawai James]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
I do know, but cannot comment I'm afraid.

James
x

So that's a yes then! smile

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