Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2013593 - 01/12/13 06:15 PM Piano Sampling Question
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3598
Loc: Northern England.
A DP is basically an AP sampled in some way, we all know that. My question is, why the difference in sound between the DFP and AP? The AP has all the depth and character,the DP has none, we are reliably and often informed.

But isn`t the peripheral sounds/resonances also part of the sample? Is the problem to do with processing, where these other sounds are removed, or in the positionong of the microphones? or something else . . .

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere here.
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
The Right Mic Makes all the Difference. Piano Mics at Sweetwater

Click Here


#2013600 - 01/12/13 06:33 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
It is often discussed everywhere but a quick answer is that a recording will always be played back through a sound system. The sound system is confined to a compressed directional delivery. Even if an omini-directional sound system exists it would have to take on the physical form of an acoustic piano in order to produce the identical sound. The different nuances come from a variety of locations and from a variety of shapes and materials. Each resonates and bounces of their relative surroundings uniquely. If it could be captured accurately it would have to be played back accurately which it cannot.

Top
#2013602 - 01/12/13 06:37 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3598
Loc: Northern England.
It shouldn`t be difficult to capture the sound. People do it all the time on Youtube, and we hear it as such . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2013612 - 01/12/13 07:02 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
I think the future will be a very loud society. With the mp3, ear buds, YouTube, preference for bass and surround sound of affordable home theaters every kid today will be close to deaf by the time they reach 30 years of age.

Top
#2013636 - 01/12/13 08:00 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: o0Ampy0o]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3598
Loc: Northern England.
Pardon?
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2013656 - 01/12/13 08:58 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Originally Posted By: peterws
Pardon?

Peter,

The post I was responding to looked like light-hearted sarcasm given the poor quality of YouTube audio.

Were you serious about this?

Originally Posted By: peterws
It shouldn`t be difficult to capture the sound. People do it all the time on Youtube, and we hear it as such . . .

Top
#2013679 - 01/12/13 09:55 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
Tyruke Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 56
Loc: Anaheim, California, USA
I've wondered about this issue as well. Especially with Yamaha digital pianos

If I were to play a Yamaha CF IIIS acoustic piano and listen with my own ears it would sound one way.

If I were to listen to a professional recording of someone playing a Yamaha CF IIIS I believe it would still sound the same to me even though I'm listening through headphones or speakers. I know it wouldn't sound EXACTLY the same, depending on various things like quality of my speakers or headphones, but I think the sound would be there.

Now when I play a Yamaha P155 digital piano, with samples from the CF IIS, there is a significant difference in the sound. Maybe it is because of the lacking resonances and all the interactions of the sound and the various materials of which the piano is made. Whatever it is, I still believe the digital sounds good, but very different from the piano from which it was sampled.

Top
#2013699 - 01/12/13 10:37 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: Tyruke]
Charles Cohen Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1299
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tyruke
. . .

Now when I play a Yamaha P155 digital piano, with samples from the CF IIS, there is a significant difference in the sound. Maybe it is because of the lacking resonances and all the interactions of the sound and the various materials of which the piano is made. Whatever it is, I still believe the digital sounds good, but very different from the piano from which it was sampled.


All the things you mentioned, and in addition:

The P155 uses a "stretched" sample set. The C and D (for example) are re-tuned samples of a C#. For the count of _really sampled_ pitches look at the "DPBSD Project" thread.

The P155 uses a sample of the start of the note (1 - 2 seconds long), and then "loops" a sample of the decay. So some of the subtle "beating" between individual strings in a note, is lost.

The P155 (I think) doesn't properly simulate the acoustic piano's "key-down" resonances. On the acoustic, if you hold down C3 (without striking the string), and play the chord C5/E5/G5, the chord picks up the overtone resonances of the C3. I don't think the P155 does that. Again, the DPBSD thread has a number of tests for similar behavior.

The acoustic piano has a tone quality (independent of volume) that changes _continuously_ as touch goes from ppp to fff. The P155 has (I think) 4 "velocity layers" (a sample at ppp, p, f, fff , for example). Those "velocity layer" samples are blended together smoothly (we hope!) in an attempt to match the changes in the acoustic's tone as the MIDI "keyboard velocity" goes from 2 to 127.

As price goes up, the quality of the simulation improves. You can get DP's that use full-length samples, and that are more careful about simulating everything that an acoustic piano does.

But they're expensive. Part of that extra cost is faster electronics, and more-sophisticated software for it.

If the "thinness" of the P155 sound starts to bother you, I suspect the next logical step is to a "software piano" -- a computer-based piano "sound generator", driven by the MIDI signals from the P155 keyboard. It's way cheaper to buy one of those, than to buy a Nord Piano (to pick one high-end example).

. Charles


Edited by Charles Cohen (01/12/13 10:54 PM)
Edit Reason: add velocity layering

Top
#2013702 - 01/12/13 10:42 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Why DPs don't sound like APs (let me count the ways):

1. Cheap speakers / tiny amplifiers
2. Stone age sample compression (looping, stretching, few velocity layers, etc.)
3. Weak / fake sounding / completely absent sympathetic resonance
4. We keep buying them so they have little / no incentive to improve them
5. Serious players replace internal sounds with PC software

Did I leave anything out? [EDIT] Oops, Charles beat me to the roll call of shame. And I left out "perhaps NAMM this year yadda yadda."
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#2013707 - 01/12/13 10:56 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: Charles Cohen]
Tyruke Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 56
Loc: Anaheim, California, USA
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen

If the "thinness" of the P155 sound starts to bother you, I suspect the next logical step is to a "software piano" -- a computer-based piano "sound generator", driven by the MIDI signals from the P155 keyboard. It's way cheaper to buy one of those, than to buy a Nord Piano (to pick one high-end example).

. Charles


I actually don't own a p155 myself, but have heard numerous recordings on YouTube, and played it many times at various music stores. I just used that piano as an example because I've heard both a CF IIIS and played and heard the P155.

I have also played software pianos and noticed that the sounds were much closer to the actual pianos they sample. I guess it has to do with what you were saying, Charles (looped and stretched samples).

Is it too difficult to use recordings of all eighty-eight keys and the full length of the notes for digital pianos than for a computer running software pianos?

Top
#2013722 - 01/12/13 11:38 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: Tyruke]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: North Carolina
It's not a question of difficulty. It's the cost.
Originally Posted By: Tyruke
Is it too difficult to use recordings of all eighty-eight keys and the full length of the notes for digital pianos than for a computer running software pianos?
Software pianos run on a computer. These computer-based piano libraries vary in size, with some as small as 1 GB, many in the 4 GB to 8 GB range, and some bigger still. Disk drives today have capacity sufficient to store all that (and more).

In contrast, digital pianos have no disk drive so the samples must be stored in a read-only memory. ROM storage is MUCH more expensive than disk storage, so their piano samples are much smaller (to reduce the sample size and to reduce the cost). But this forces a reduction in quality.

Result: The best software pianos are better sounding than any digital piano, and even the cheapest software pianos are better than most digital pianos.

Top
#2013761 - 01/13/13 02:53 AM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: o0Ampy0o]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3598
Loc: Northern England.
"It shouldn`t be difficult to capture the sound. People do it all the time on Youtube, and we hear it as such . ."

Ampy, Youtube quality isn`t brill,
But you hear those resonances still!

Being serious, I would have thought it would be difficult to eliminate them when or even after the sample is taken. . .


Edited by peterws (01/13/13 02:54 AM)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2013766 - 01/13/13 03:48 AM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Peter,

Are you saying that you hear desired sounds in recordings of DPs that you do not hear when playing a DP?

Top
#2013789 - 01/13/13 05:42 AM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Peter, I had (and some others) had say a lot to this issue in previous topics, my thesis was that sound perpective is the major challange with sampling and that micing is inherently narrowing this perspective.

Stereo sound contains more spacial information than light: through the phase information in sound image you can theortically an infromation about the depth of the different sound sources contributing to the sound in you ear. Beside of having the phase differences in otherwise similar sound images enable us to determine the direction of the sound source, to determine the dimensions of the sound source (a punctual one or something with an extension.)

So the microphone perspective is a fix encoded information in the sound image, hereby a very aidibly present but not obvious narrowing factor.

As you have noted, the close micing is the preferred samplig perspective, to be able more freely mixing and afterprocessing with other effects (convolution revrb, etc.). If you are record ing the samples with instrument noises and reverb (from instrument body+ambience), you are sticking with these fixated parameters restricting instrument options and to some extent playability.

How to heal Achille's heal of sampled pianos

And more than that: I was able due to this insights even to enhance my SW instruments with Kontakt VSTi-s within Reaper (Galaxy VintageD/Vienna Grand) - using the builtin spatialiser very significantly:Perspective enhancement by using spatialiser
The effect I felt was totally convincing, I am now pleased with my arrangement - for the first time I can concentrate fully on playing music. I am considering to open a separate topic for this, because I feel this simple enhancement option so important for all of us VST users and I am very curious of the opinion of others (so far very little feedback).
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

Top
#2013802 - 01/13/13 06:47 AM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: o0Ampy0o]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3598
Loc: Northern England.
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Peter,

Are you saying that you hear desired sounds in recordings of DPs that you do not hear when playing a DP?


No. But you hear all the resonances of the acoustic when it is played through Youtube. And in a strange way, my own DP sounds much better after recording . . . tone wise that is!
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2013804 - 01/13/13 06:52 AM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: Temperament]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3598
Loc: Northern England.
Temperament;

I`m havin` trouble in my `ed
Understandin` what you just said . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2013805 - 01/13/13 06:59 AM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: Charles Cohen]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3598
Loc: Northern England.
Charles

"The P155 uses a sample of the start of the note (1 - 2 seconds long), and then "loops" a sample of the decay. So some of the subtle "beating" between individual strings in a note, is lost.

The P155 (I think) doesn't properly simulate the acoustic piano's "key-down" resonances"

That I can understand . . .Cheers man
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2014020 - 01/13/13 05:33 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Originally Posted By: peterws
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Peter,

Are you saying that you hear desired sounds in recordings of DPs that you do not hear when playing a DP?


No. But you hear all the resonances of the acoustic when it is played through Youtube. And in a strange way, my own DP sounds much better after recording . . . tone wise that is!

DP manufacturers are aiming to present the most important part of a sound in the purest form possible within the constraints of the technology.

YouTube videos may capture a shotgun spray of sounds showing that all sorts of things can be picked up by a microphone yet the quality of the sound is too poor to present as the sound in a digital piano.

The extra ambience/resonance would require larger storage capacity, a stronger engine and better delivery of audio in speaker systems to fully appreciate. To present significantly better sound sampling in a DP is impractical. It comes down to drawing a line somewhere and making the best of what fits.

EDIT: The above is my theory and opinion only.

Also regarding your own recordings, generally speaking and not knowing the methods you use, the recording will be played back through a sound system which changes your spacial perception towards what you are accustomed to listening to in a commercial recording (some is a psychological perception of improvement) and will have received some additional enhancement from the recording device. Even if it is only slight, it is geared towards creating a better presentation of the recording.


Edited by o0Ampy0o (01/13/13 05:41 PM)

Top
#2014039 - 01/13/13 06:39 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: North Carolina
Regarding this "... to present significantly better sound sampling in a DP is impractical."

I completely disagree.

I interpret "better sound" as that which today comes from a software piano library. At present, this calls for a PC or Mac.

But there's no reason why an adequate computer could not be added into a digital piano.

I run piano software on an old computer. It's a lame old laptop, but it's adequate. You would not need as much computing (or cost) inside of a digital piano because so much of the laptop guts could be omitted:
- No need for a big, heavy, expensive battery.
- No need for an expensive Windows or Mac O/S.
- No need for a wired or wireless network card.
- No need for a display.
- No need for a keyboard ... the piano already has the necessary controls and buttons.
- No need for a graphics card.
- No need for the laptop sound card ... the piano already has a sound system.

And if the processor on my meager laptop can handle piano software on top of a general purpose O/S with all of its attendant bloat, an even lesser CPU would serve adequately in a piano free of all that excess.

I wouldn't expect to find a low-end piano with all that. But it's already being done in the Crumar (sp?). Surely Kawai and Yamaha could do likewise (and better) in their high-end products.

But they don't! (Waiting for dewster to enter ...)

Top
#2014046 - 01/13/13 06:52 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: MacMacMac]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Well I would agree with your disagreeing but I was making a general comment on common DPs and was not trying to cover every possibility.

Of course one could be made.

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
I completely disagree.

Top
#2014050 - 01/13/13 07:04 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
The interesting thing to me is that evidence points to DP manufacturers skimping on the storage space, not CPU. They have very short samples with looping and blending, etc., instead of a great big samples that just stream with little further processing. Perhaps there is some issue of throughput. I don't know.

In this forum we are not DP designers, but it is hard to reconcile the progress in computers and software pianos to the apparent lack of progress in DP's. I actually wish I had a better idea of what the constraint really is. Presumably with four companies vying for the market, if there were low-hanging fruit it would have been plucked by now.

I have to think there must be some reason commodity hardware isn't as attractive an option as it seems to us.


Edited by gvfarns (01/13/13 07:06 PM)

Top
#2014051 - 01/13/13 07:05 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
ONfrank Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 98
Indeed it's impractical, for if Yamaha, Roland, or Kawai sold you a DP that sounded like one of them fancy software libraries in 2013, what would they sell to you in 2014?

Top
#2014052 - 01/13/13 07:10 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: ONfrank]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: ONfrank
Indeed it's impractical, for if Yamaha, Roland, or Kawai sold you a DP that sounded like one of them fancy software libraries in 2013, what would they sell to you in 2014?


I've often had this thought (I've also wondered if Yamaha and Kawai don't want digitals competing with their acoustics but that wouldn't explain Roland and Casio).

You may be right. But if so, it's an unstable equilibrium. Any company that deviated from that strategy and actually made a big technological leap would gain a huge chunk of market share at the expense of the others. They would have to coordinate to make the oligopoly work.

More likely in my mind, the problem is the consumers: not educated enough to know/care and comparison shop effectively. That being the case things like marketing and brand name are more important than the underlying tech.

Top
#2014090 - 01/13/13 08:34 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: gvfarns]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3213
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The interesting thing to me is that evidence points to DP manufacturers skimping on the storage space, not CPU.

I don't think we usually have any idea what CPU they are using.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
instead of a great big samples that just stream with little further processing. Perhaps there is some issue of throughput. I don't know.
...
it is hard to reconcile the progress in computers and software pianos to the apparent lack of progress in DP's. I actually wish I had a better idea of what the constraint really is.
...
I have to think there must be some reason commodity hardware isn't as attractive an option as it seems to us.

It is happening. The Kronos, the Crumar, and the Receptor do exist.

I think the question people mean, then, is why isn't it happening more cheaply. What I've noted in the past is that streaming (or any method of seeing storage space as virtual RAM such that the entire data set for an operation doesn't have to be in directly accessible memory simultaneously) seems to require a sophisticated OS (i.e. Windows, Mac, Linux) and so then also the hardware those OSes require. I suppose a company could write their own OS with this functionality, but it is probably non-trivial and beyond the normal scope of their programming talents, and who knows if it would even run on notably less hardware anyway.

Anyway, if that's the case, it becomes easier to see why keyboard manufacturers can't do it that cheaply, between the fact that instrument companies can't build computers as cheaply as computer companies can, and that the specialty instrument market can't survive on the low profit margins of commodity products, and that an instrument buyer is not going to put up with the things that computer users often put up with (occasional glitches, possibly leading to need to reboot; operations that take too much time; sometimes having to fiddle with settings to get things to work right), so things do have to be optimized for the desired functionality even in a commodity-based system. That is, even Kronos, Crumar, and Receptor are doing more than tossing commodity components and stock OS into a box... though Crumar comes closest by using embedded XP and not having the system do anything beyond piano... and even they're not cheap, especially when you realize they're selling direct.

But maybe we'll see some advancement here at NAMM in a couple of weeks!

Originally Posted By: ONfrank
if Yamaha, Roland, or Kawai sold you a DP that sounded like one of them fancy software libraries in 2013, what would they sell to you in 2014?

Not too many people buy a new piano every year, and I don't think these companies are looking at that as a strategy. They'll probably be happy if you want to buy another one five years from now... and no matter what they could possibly give you today, I bet they would be able to have something better 5 years from now!

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Any company that deviated from that strategy and actually made a big technological leap would gain a huge chunk of market share at the expense of the others. They would have to coordinate to make the oligopoly work.

I don't believe there is any coordination to limit technology. Apart from my general aversion to "conspiracy theory" thinking, I really think each company wants to do what they can to be at the head of the pack. And arguably, Korg made the technological leap you describe with the Kronos. (And in fact, that hasn't stopped people from buying Nords, Rolands, and Yamahas--even reasonably high priced ones--as they each still have their own unique advantages.) Also, the instrument companies do know that you can put a laptop on any MIDI keyboard, so they must recognize that that is part of their competition as well. And the fact that not everyone is happy with that approach is not simply a matter of it being in two pieces instead of one, so I think that whatever an instrument manufacturer does along those lines needs to address the downsides of the computer approach a little more thoroughly.

I mentioned elsewhere that it took Korg a year to get the Kronos to stream user samples (in addition to the ones they pre-designed for it), and that's with an OS and hardware that already inherently supports streaming. I just don't think this stuff is as simple as many people here seem to think it is, especially if you're looking for the rock-solid operation you'd expect in a pro instrument.

In part, what I'm saying is that I think Ivory et al work because, on the software side, Apple and Microsoft have already done much of the low-level "heavy lifting," so to speak, while also providing a relatively low-cost mass production hardware platform; and they also benefit from the fact that people are okay if they can't just fire it up and have it work perfectly out of the gate "first time, every time," because expectations are different on a non-dedicated system.

Top
#2014112 - 01/13/13 09:32 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: o0Ampy0o]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Originally Posted By: peterws
Pardon?

Peter,

The post I was responding to looked like light-hearted sarcasm given the poor quality of YouTube audio.

Were you serious about this?

Originally Posted By: peterws
It shouldn`t be difficult to capture the sound. People do it all the time on Youtube, and we hear it as such . . .


wink
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

Top
#2014138 - 01/13/13 10:25 PM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: peterws]
victthoe Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/13/13
Posts: 7
Loc: Banned
People do it all the time on Youtube, and we hear it as such .

Top
#2014203 - 01/14/13 02:37 AM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: anotherscott]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2207
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
[...] though Crumar comes closest by using embedded XP and not having the system do anything beyond piano...


My understanding is that the user may put any VST they like on the system. (it comes with a 7200rpm drive, so it should be able to stream samples, too). I think Crumar confirmed this in another thread some time ago. If you're referring to the config as sold though, then yes - I think that's correct.

Regarding the Kronos - do you happen to know whether it streams samples from the SSD in the sense that it has to pre-load the attacks? The reason I ask is that I've just noticed that fast SSDs are very VERY fast now - the first one I looked at can do about 100K operations per second (= 0.01ms per read). The Kronos spec says 100 voices(*), and 100 x 0.01ms is just 1ms. I don't know what latency the Kronos has when using the SSD, but if we could tolerate about 5ms, that leaves 80% of the audio buffer time for processing of those samples, which is a lot. This could mean that it doesn't really need to pre-load at all, which would make a simpler system design. Maybe back when it was designed SSDs were not nearly this fast though.

Greg.
p.s It says 100 "dual stereo voices". If those dual stereo voices are not always co-located in the SSD, then I would need to multiply the voice count by 4 (to get the 400 raw voices they quote), and in that case the calculation doesn't look as attractive. I suspect those dual-stereo voices would be packed together, though, and that's why they quote the true polyphony as 100. Otherwise, they would have simply said "400", without any qualification.

p.p.s When I say "pre-load" - I realise it may well just put the attacks in fast FLASH or something - not actually "load" the attacks.


Edited by sullivang (01/14/13 03:16 AM)

Top
#2014233 - 01/14/13 04:56 AM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: gvfarns]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1267
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: ONfrank
Indeed it's impractical, for if Yamaha, Roland, or Kawai sold you a DP that sounded like one of them fancy software libraries in 2013, what would they sell to you in 2014?


I've often had this thought (I've also wondered if Yamaha and Kawai don't want digitals competing with their acoustics but that wouldn't explain Roland and Casio).



Quite. Sooner or later someone’s going to blink and DPs will make the quantum jump we’ve all been craving. In any case, the marketers and retailers are unlikely to have a problem persuading some of us to buy a real strung piano for its organic form factor, its physical presence, its sound board and near-inimitable ‘sonic superiority’.

Even with the inevitable lag between the conception and realisation of a new DP in the market, I would be very surprised if we didn’t see something non-looping within the year. 16gb of solid state memory is now a drop in the ocean compared to overall costs.



Top
#2014238 - 01/14/13 05:23 AM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: sullivang]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1267
Loc: uk south
"This could mean that it doesn't really need to pre-load at all, which would make a simpler system design"

I've no doubt that's true. Not only the read/write rates, SSD access times are absolutely blistering also.

I suppose it’ll be a few years before notebook and desktop HDDs give way more or less completely (apart from bulk storage and archiving) to SSD so software pianos have no choice but to pre-load for now.

I don't know if it's of any interest but I raided the piggy bank and bought a samsung 840 SSD last week and it's been a revelation, for the boot-up and – more importantly - loading into Kontakt. But this blew me away; prior to the SSD my acid test for setting a generous buffer - gliss the entire keyboard while holding sustain – would show a gradual climbing in Kontakt’s disk-usage meter so that after 2 or 3 seconds the bar was fully white = disk overloaded. The same test with the SSD and there’s not a flicker of movement, the meter registers nothing.



Top
#2014247 - 01/14/13 06:13 AM Re: Piano Sampling Question [Re: anotherscott]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
...keyboard manufacturers can't do it that cheaply, between the fact that instrument companies can't build computers as cheaply as computer companies can, and that the specialty instrument market can't survive on the low profit margins of commodity products, and that an instrument buyer is not going to put up with the things that computer users often put up with (occasional glitches, possibly leading to need to reboot; operations that take too much time; sometimes having to fiddle with settings to get things to work right), so things do have to be optimized for the desired functionality even in a commodity-based system.

Completely disagree. My cheap 8 ys. old Linksys router has a Linux operating system with some elementary web server functionality. Hardly bigger than my pocket wallet, costed some 30$. I was involved in such projects previously for developing such dedicated HW/SW applications, with high reliability specifications - DPs are nothing special in this regard.

I would bet in all of these DPs is running under such an operating system already, probably a Linux derivate.

(I can remember we were astonished to find out that in 1999 to that time revolutionary seeming touch screen application for choosing meals and printing tickets in the staff restaurant of the bank central we worked at was a normal program task running under WindowsNT - a proprietary OS.)

This will now change rapidly I think.Manufacturers could explore halting back development because their targeted buyer in the classical instrument market was to a higher percentage a technically relatively conservative - not to say naive (older people without technical background and primary interests in computers). Completely different with digital photography, where development was some one decade ahead of DPs. But all of this will be changing rapidly. Facebook citizens are sophisticated enough to be able to get user of a multimedia solutions with a master-keyboard, which will become the major concurrency for DPs.

KAWAIs announced new MIDI master KB VPC is such a first sign for this kind of development.

I think even some small companies launching some HQ DPs from their garage could now enforce breaking the hegemony of the restrained development strategy of mainstream manufacturers.
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
More Bach (Ich Ruf Zu Dir)
by johnlewisgrant
09/15/14 12:12 AM
Incredibly short fugue
by Pencil_skirts_and_
09/14/14 10:50 PM
The piano made it home in time...
by Rich Galassini
09/14/14 10:09 PM
Teachers: Do you use John Thomson method books?
by Morodiene
09/14/14 09:36 PM
Funny but true...
by PhilipInChina
09/14/14 08:56 PM
Who's Online
118 registered (andriy555, anotherscott, AmateurBob, aesop, 33 invisible), 1222 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76201 Members
42 Forums
157523 Topics
2313847 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission