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#2002805 - 12/21/12 06:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Thanks printer1. I'm enjoying playing over the changes and making sense out of it. Not too bad at all.

The only issue really is how to execute on the head on the last 4 bars. The rest of the tune is cool. The head of course plays the last 4 bars as a simple arpeggio of the chord tones. So that could be considered the super simplified approach. I really only had a feeling of a loss of a melodic line on the last two chords. I think I have to make it lead well to the F-7b5 and so common tones become a focus.

This is a neat tune. If it didn't go so fast, it wouldn't be that bad. But I think I picked it up quickly.
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#2002947 - 12/22/12 04:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
BTW printer1, On Inner Urge, various versions play it differently so I guess it doesn't help unless I specifically focus ONLY on Joe Henderson's version.

I'm just curious what you play (if you play this tune). One Real book version plays the downward arpeggio as triplet eighths and upwards as a quintuplet 16ths. The other version plays the downward and upward arpeggios mostly as sixteenths (equal up and down). Maybe this is an issue of "expression" since it's a matter of rhythm/timing.

...which kind of tells me, that it can be up to me I suppose since the masters differ.

It's really difficult though to jump from a CMaj7 arpeggio to an AMaj7 arpeggio without a pause. That's my only real problem in this whole tune! It reminds me of some lines in Chopin Etude 10/1. Something similar to that. Man, it shows my weakness at AMaj7 arpeggios. It's not too common in jazz so it's not honed down.

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#2003175 - 12/22/12 05:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Jazzwee ... that Chopin Etude has exactly the technique you want to use for those II passages we're discussing. In particular, the II arpeggios (and Chopin's ... and as you know he's got that A major arpeggio in there that's unbelievably clunky to play!)

all that is hard ONLY if you try to connect notes w/finger techniques ... finger techniques as in get the finger to the note and then let the hand follow. Actually, do it the other way ... get the hand (move it laterally across the keyboard) over the general contour of the notes and then let the fingers do their work ... which is just drop onto the keys since the lateral movement of your hand will have placed them where they need to be!

The question of which exact notes to play ... get a few different recordings of Joe Henderson and the compare and kind of conflate what you like best. Having the ability to slow the recordings down is crucial for this (to hear what's going on).

Transcribing ... it's the only way to know exactly what's going on really anywhere! Even if you only transcribe tiny little bit just to clarify (clarify as in "Is it choice A or is it choice B?") it's as definitive as it gets!

Hope this helps!

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#2003282 - 12/22/12 11:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Thanks printer1! Almost ready to play this. Soloing is fine. Head -- still messing up once in awhile so it just has to ripen. I'm sure to play this in a couple of weeks. It's really fun to solo to.

I have a few woodshed tunes for the holidays (in addition to Inner Urge) -- Waltz for Debby, Along Came Betty, Moment's Notice and a refresh on Very Early, Beatrice. Full plate!
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#2003587 - 12/23/12 05:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
most excellent!

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#2005359 - 12/28/12 08:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Re: Xmas tunes.

Strange things do happen. I got "the" call to sub for a famous bassist, he can't make the gig thanks to living in the countryside (hefty snow out there in the sticks).
A 60+ men's choir (ages from teens to seniors citizens), a jazz pianist, a singer of repute and moi. The concert's taking place in a church built in 1462. We'll be playing: A child is born, Chestnuts roasting, Have yourself a merry little Xmas, Silent Night, Santa Claus is coming to town and a bunch of Swedish traditional songs - all arranged by the pianist.

So I've spent my birthday practising Have yourself in Gb - ahh the horror . . .
:-)
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#2005703 - 12/28/12 05:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Y'all remember Beatrice? When we first tried that sometime ago, I never felt like it clicked. But after working on Inner Urge with all the Lydian modes in it, I started to appreciate what's going on in Beatrice which also has a lot of lydian. I've decided to play that for sure at my next gigs.

Some things I guess just take time for the mind to absorb.
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#2005704 - 12/28/12 05:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Re: Xmas tunes.

Strange things do happen. I got "the" call to sub for a famous bassist, he can't make the gig thanks to living in the countryside (hefty snow out there in the sticks).
A 60+ men's choir (ages from teens to seniors citizens), a jazz pianist, a singer of repute and moi. The concert's taking place in a church built in 1462. We'll be playing: A child is born, Chestnuts roasting, Have yourself a merry little Xmas, Silent Night, Santa Claus is coming to town and a bunch of Swedish traditional songs - all arranged by the pianist.

So I've spent my birthday practising Have yourself in Gb - ahh the horror . . .
:-)


I just looked at it in Gb. Not that bad smile Though it was a pain looking at transposed changes showing Cb...just can't get used to that.
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#2005728 - 12/28/12 06:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Re: Xmas tunes.
So I've spent my birthday practising Have yourself in Gb - ahh the horror . . .
:-)
I just looked at it in Gb. Not that bad smile Though it was a pain looking at transposed changes showing Cb...just can't get used to that.
On the piano, no problem. /though, try and play the head in Gb smile ) But on the double bass its a real pain . . . tricky key to play in tune in. But doable. Still, I felt like Palle-lite . . .
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#2005747 - 12/28/12 07:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
jazz wee .. beatrice by sam rivers? that's a great tune! have you heard the recording it's from (fusia swing song ... sam rivers, jaki byard, tony willams, ron carter!)

... Gb major on the piano is a very, very nice key because the black keys are always consonant! On double bass, Gb, it's probably a nightmare of a key! No open strings!

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#2006074 - 12/29/12 03:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
printer1: When I play Beatrice I use the intro from the original recording. It's really simple and nice. Just bass and piano.

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#2006116 - 12/29/12 04:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
nice jjo!

i gotta dig out that recording. haven't listened to it in a while. but it's up there w/the great ones!

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#2006125 - 12/29/12 04:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I'd like to learn the intro. Admittedly I did not pay much attention to it. Maybe we can all post our versions for fun. I'm going to see about making a backing track in BIAB.

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#2006164 - 12/29/12 06:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Ok guys -- here's a very interesting experiment to listen to. This is BIAB playing Inner Urge. As you all know BIAB comes with a solo generation program that makes really good solos based on cliché vocabulary. I've heard versions that Chris has posted and it has some really good licks in there and some really good logic like repeats and other kinds of motifs.

Inner Urge
https://www.box.com/s/ers62eycuqf70lz05cdq

BUT -- Inner Urge is an example of those tunes that are not rooted in Bebop progressions and it's funny hearing BIAB trying to make standard licks through some of these changes. Doesn't work for me smile Maybe it does for you. But some of it sounds truly vertical playing (Chord by chord without common tone melodies).

So I believe it least in this case, that the computer loses. Well I could be wrong if you think this solo matches some of the versions by Joe Henderson, etc. What I think it misses is that it can't connect common tones in the progression so it looks at each chord independently or as some ii-V progression. Thus, it complicates this tune which I think can be simplified by looking at those common tones and not necessarily the main chord tones. (I think the same of Beatrice BTW). Something I refer to as Horizontal Playing ala Miles Davis (melodies that cross bars).

I would be interested in debates on this issue.

It shows to me at least what the logic of BIAB is. I could actually pick up Bebop vocabulary from BIAB. I'm actually very curious at the contributor of the soloing logic to BIAB. The fact that it can even make realistic sounding Bebop solos better than many aspiring jazz players is amazing. It can't make a mistake, select a wrong note or have a timing/articulation error.
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#2006582 - 12/30/12 02:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I just looked at it in Gb. Not that bad smile Though it was a pain looking at transposed changes showing Cb...just can't get used to that.
Well it was written H in my part smile
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#2006583 - 12/30/12 02:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: printer1
jazz wee .. beatrice by sam rivers? that's a great tune! have you heard the recording it's from (fusia swing song ... sam rivers, jaki byard, tony willams, ron carter!)

... Gb major on the piano is a very, very nice key because the black keys are always consonant! On double bass, Gb, it's probably a nightmare of a key! No open strings!

You chould have look back in this Topic; a couple of us submitted recordings of Beatrice.

Yeah no open strings, except when we did a Dameron turnaround, Gb Amaj7 Dmaj7 Gmaj7 - saved my bacon. smile


Edited by chrisbell (12/30/12 02:56 PM)
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#2010970 - 01/08/13 03:23 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
OK here's my first try of this tune. I messed up the head initially. There's also distracting comping from the guitar player and also the percussionist who's off in time. But this is a jam so I can't really clear them out.

Inner Urge (First Try)
https://www.box.com/s/zbsdoc3n5qz2w8m669km

I'll be playing this again in the next few gigs so we'll see if it gets better, particularly the head.
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#2010976 - 01/08/13 03:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Same annoying background here plus low piano volume against electric instruments. But in any case here's the last section of Beatrice with my solo.

Beatrice (Excerpt - Jam)
https://www.box.com/s/6ihdjbhnkkyr4soevl2q
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#2013205 - 01/12/13 03:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Perhaps no one cares but here's another retry on Inner Urge. Getting more comfortable. However, I'm rushing and it's really irritating to hear. I'm disgusted with my myself. The next time I play this, I will be more attentive to the time.

Inner Urge (#2)
https://www.box.com/s/ajyyzsjritdneu20ekux

One thing too. The original head requires 16th notes to be played (upward arpeggio) at 220bpm. Well that's pretty much impossible for me. Maybe you have to be Chick Corea to play it. I listened to Bill Charlap, and he's just ghosting the upward arpeggio (quintuplet 16ths). Just for comparison, the 16ths in Chopin 10/1 Etude is at 170bpm so this is much faster than that. Thus, as I've heard other people do, I've simplified.

Here's another couple of tunes. Same rushing issue.

Dolphin Dance
https://www.box.com/s/09ig7zzh9cvwi0ptt11n

Whisper Not
https://www.box.com/s/5rcvfxzb5vc2r92bp0mg


Edited by jazzwee (01/12/13 04:50 AM)
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#2013517 - 01/12/13 03:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Happy Birthday knotty Offline
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Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
It's cool that you decided to play the head on some of the tunes. Very nice!

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#2013609 - 01/12/13 06:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Sandra M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 56
Hello and I want to learn more jazz style. So glad I entered the beginners forum to find your wonderful post and thank you. Sandra M

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#2013616 - 01/12/13 07:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Here's another couple of tunes. Same rushing issue.


Victor Wooten has some great time exercises that can easily be adapted for piano.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRmiTta995o

Sometimes rushing can just happen when we play difficult music because we concentrating so hard on playing all the notes or changes that there is not enough brain left for proper concentration on the rhythm. Playing simply is good for groove I think.
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#2013710 - 01/12/13 11:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Here's another couple of tunes. Same rushing issue.


Victor Wooten has some great time exercises that can easily be adapted for piano.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRmiTta995o

Sometimes rushing can just happen when we play difficult music because we concentrating so hard on playing all the notes or changes that there is not enough brain left for proper concentration on the rhythm. Playing simply is good for groove I think.



Great Wooten video there! There's an iphone Time Trainer app that does something like that automatically.

True about difficulty being the reason. I'm not rushing on Whisper Not and I'm just rushing a tad at the beginning of Dolphin Dance and then I relax.

Inner Urge -- it takes so much attention to play the head at this time. If you miss a beat, the whole thing is screwed up. So it causes me to tense up. But definitely getting easier. I really like the tune though. Sounds like real jazz especially when played fast.
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#2013715 - 01/12/13 11:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
It's cool that you decided to play the head on some of the tunes. Very nice!


Thanks Knots. I want to do trio gigs so I've got to hone down the heads. I rely too much on the sax player.
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#2013762 - 01/13/13 03:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: knotty
It's cool that you decided to play the head on some of the tunes. Very nice!


Thanks Knots. I want to do trio gigs so I've got to hone down the heads. I rely too much on the sax player.


Careful for what you wish for, JW. I love playing trio, but its pretty hard to make it sound good most of the time, and I know that I'm probably the most to blame, even though I like to complain about how the other two should know the tunes better. At least with a sax or other lead instrument it felt like I could contribute without taking too much responsibility.

That being said, I'd always prefer trio over quartet or quintet, pressure and all.
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#2013854 - 01/13/13 10:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Happy Birthday knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
A few tracks from Friday, 2 standards and one original brought by the sax player:

Nearness of You:
https://www.box.com/s/0vtuynds98yrdxh0tuge

Mr PC
https://www.box.com/s/fts9tqe3k65iqaok0ugq

Original:
https://www.box.com/s/08xwxxmwzwmvesnen1h0

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#2013888 - 01/13/13 11:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jjo Online   content
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
Really enjoyed the Wooten video. It's enough for me, however, just to practice keeping time with one pulse per measure on the metronome. Going multiple measures would be hopeless.

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#2013933 - 01/13/13 01:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jjo
Really enjoyed the Wooten video. It's enough for me, however, just to practice keeping time with one pulse per measure on the metronome. Going multiple measures would be hopeless.


I think the idea is to challenge yourself just a little bit. If the tempo is comfortable then notch the metronome down a couple of clicks, or find some rhythmic challenge in the existing tempo to overcome. This way you can force some improvement to happen. If you just do what is comfortable then it is not enough of a challenge.
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#2014068 - 01/13/13 07:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
I'll give it a go! But for challenges, today I had my Latin Jazz Ensemble class. First, we did Blue Monk, switching between 7/4 and cha cha in 4/4. Then we played Footprints, switching between 6/4 and a 3/2 Rhumba Clave.

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#2014115 - 01/13/13 09:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jjo
... today I had my Latin Jazz Ensemble class. First, we did Blue Monk, switching between 7/4 and cha cha in 4/4. Then we played Footprints, switching between 6/4 and a 3/2 Rhumba Clave.


I'm curious as to how Blue Monk would sound that way. Was it musical? I love odd meter stuff, but certain tunes with certain melodic aspects shouldn't be used for Latin feel IMHO.
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