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#2013732 - 01/13/13 12:16 AM Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question
jawhitti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 235
I just got the JOI books last week and got to spend time with them today. They are certainly humbling - while the theory in volume one is all familiar stuff even the first jazz Hanon exercise was tricky.

I do have a question about how they are intended to be practiced. There's a note on page 28 that says "maintain the same fingering at each scale degree, in all keys, ascending and descending, even if it feels awkward". I would play the first measure of the first exercise in Bb as 2123 4212, then 1234 5321 for the second measure. Is the point of the note in the text that I should use the same fingering any time I'm playing from the same root note regardless of key? if I transpose the exercise to F or Db I should be playing the figure as 2123 4212 every time Bb is the root even though some of the notes will be different in the different keys? I guess that would make sense, but I'm certainly not convinced I am using the best fingerings, I'm tempted to practice holding the root and root finger constant and playing through all the variations at that degree. The note sounds to me like "if you are playing the sixth degree the fingering should always be the same" which doesn't seem right - I would never finger Bb the same as A or C.

How are you all approaching the fingerings?

Incidentally, I think I like the book. I start lessons again in a week or two and am going to try to convince my instructor to work through it with me. I also have gotten a lot out of Phil DeGreg's book "Jazz Keyboard Harmony". It's got a bit more theory and a different set of exercises more geared to getting common chord changes under your hands. It's been helpful to me and I think it meshes very nicely with JOI. Adding Levine to the mix gives you almost everything you could want, I think, though I find Levine to be almost cryptic sometimes.


Edited by jawhitti (01/13/13 12:20 AM)

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Piano & Music Accessories
#2013740 - 01/13/13 12:37 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
anyone?

DF

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#2013747 - 01/13/13 12:56 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: davefrank]
jawhitti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 235
Originally Posted By: davefrank
anyone?

DF


Dave if you know anyone that can divine the author's intent that would be great!

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#2013768 - 01/13/13 04:03 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
the fingering remains the same for each degree. In the first hanon, for example, it's 12345321 12345321 et al, descending 54321345 54321345..it's a bit awkward at first, then you get used to it and it is very freeing in terms of using the thumbs creatively and breaking classical fingering habits.

DF

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#2013842 - 01/13/13 09:41 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
jawhitti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 235
But... but...All that painstaking work learning to get comfortable with classical fingering. I think I'm gonna throw up.

Thanks Dave. I will try it out. I can see why this would make sense for improv so you don't get caught out with 5 on Ab wanting to play Bb as your next note. My classical teacher will be horrified wink

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#2013845 - 01/13/13 09:47 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
keep the jazz and classical worlds separate in your brain, classical training is fine for classical but limiting for jazz. Maybe go to your next classical lesson , walk in smokin a doobie with a hip pair of shades, go directly to the piano and put your thumb on Gb and say to your teacher "Que pasa, pops?"

DF

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#2013853 - 01/13/13 10:13 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
jawhitti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 235
LOL. My teacher is pretty young (mid 30s) and a wonderful musician and instructor with a PhD performance degree from UT Austin. Very much the "repressed music major" type though. I think he already hates that he has to deal with a dirty plebe like me. Calling him "Pops" might push him over the edge...

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#2013878 - 01/13/13 11:16 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Hey Daddy-o!

If I am not mistaken, regular, square Hanon is executed that way too, slapping the same fingering down on all degrees.

O' rooty? Gotta split!

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#2013926 - 01/13/13 01:05 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
yeah, but it's only in C bubbie..

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#2013936 - 01/13/13 01:53 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
"C bubbie"?

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#2013952 - 01/13/13 02:52 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: landorrano]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
A yiddish sailor

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#2013957 - 01/13/13 03:02 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
jawhitti - nothing will prepare your fingers for classical better than Dave's hanons. After that, classical fingering seems sooooo tame.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#2013984 - 01/13/13 04:04 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: davefrank]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: davefrank
A yiddish sailor


And an old one at that.

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#2014284 - 01/14/13 08:24 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Good afternoon. This is certainly beside the point, still I believe that square Hanon was meant to be played in all keys and using the same fingering. In any case, it is used that way by some. As one fellow I know says, if it's just to be played as written, then what's the point!

I hadn't realized that the swinging jazz Hanon that is mentioned is Dave's work.

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#2014925 - 01/15/13 01:21 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
RonL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 181
Ah Jazz Hanons - how many enjoyable hours have I spent on them. Fingering stays the same no matter what.

I am now on my second time through them all, once a day I do one in two hands at 120 - 130 BPM then right hand alone at challenge tempo - and it depends on the Hanon if I can get to 200 BPM.

It's funny you mention the DeGreg book - I have been working through that book for the past year - every day I take one of the turn arounds or voicing examples and work it through all the keys. It is one of the best voicing books out there IMHO.

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#2014927 - 01/15/13 01:30 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: landorrano]
Cudo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 135
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
Originally Posted By: landorrano
still I believe that square Hanon was meant to be played in all keys and using the same fingering.

That´s true. The fingering over rides the black and white keys.
But Hanon feels only square when you play it square.
Be inventive! Music lives on repetition and sequenzing.

I did the Hanon allways in a musical context like here -->

www.cisum.info/Hanon_by_Armin_Keil.wma

on a IMA7 V7/II IIm7 V//I turnaround.

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#2017118 - 01/19/13 07:44 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
Generally, Hanon and regular fingering both are played by classical pianists, because both are great tools, but they are for different targets. I doubt Hanon considered those exercises for non-classical playing, since it was published in 1873. You can't easily play sequence moving stepwise in your improvisation and use classical fingering, also you can't play fast ascending scale through a few octaves without using classical fingerings.

In jazz, Hanon fingerings (or lack of it smile ) is essential, one of my favourite jazz piano teachers, which is a genius player, said: "if you always play this note with the same finger, then you always sound the same. I can tell what you will play next". If you don't understand this statement too literally, he really has his point.

I play Hanon every day in all keys, I play mostly first 20 exercises, and that was enough for me for last 3 or 4 years. I don't have enough time to play everything, so usually I play one of variations:

1) a couple of exercises through all keys
2) first exercise in C, C# and F, second in F#, G, G# and so on through all exercises

But rhythmically I also play one of variations:
1) equal 8ths, metronome 4x slower (usually 22-25)
2) swing eights, metronome once a two bars, or 2&4, or just 2, or just 4
3) equal eights, but with accents on 1&3 or 2&4 or every fifth note (last one is more demanding so tempo is slower, like 20 or even 18, but at 18 it may be better to play 36 instead).

Especially accents every fifth note is very demanding, and you shouldn't overdo forcing only those 5th accents, because it requires slower tempo and may make your fingers stronger, but affect speed and fluency of playing. So alternating exercises is best way.

What I plan is playing Hanon on pentatonics, which I heard is good. Also in melodic scales, I also wonder if it's possible to play it in diminished and whole-tone scale.


EDIT: Here is a link to first 20 execrises with my additions (short, original Hanon comments which exercise is for what)


Edited by kiedysktos. (01/19/13 10:31 AM)
_________________________
Roland FP-4

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#2017189 - 01/19/13 11:00 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: davefrank]
Randy C. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 14
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: davefrank
the fingering remains the same for each degree. In the first hanon, for example, it's 12345321 12345321 et al, descending 54321345 54321345..it's a bit awkward at first, then you get used to it and it is very freeing in terms of using the thumbs creatively and breaking classical fingering habits.

DF


And you use the same fingering for every key?

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#2017223 - 01/19/13 12:01 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
si senor

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#2017399 - 01/19/13 04:38 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: davefrank]
offnote Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/10
Posts: 258
Loc: Banned
I didn't know Hanon was a jazzer...

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#2017436 - 01/19/13 05:53 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
jawhitti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 235
Just to remind anyone in this thread who may be getting the wrong idea. "JazzHanon" refers to the series of exercises by that name contained in Dave Frank's "Joy of Improv" books. It's a clever name but the exercises are completely unrelated to the "classic" Hanon exercises. except in spirit.

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#2017449 - 01/19/13 06:19 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
Originally Posted By: jawhitti
Just to remind anyone in this thread who may be getting the wrong idea. "JazzHanon" refers to the series of exercises by that name contained in Dave Frank's "Joy of Improv" books. It's a clever name but the exercises are completely unrelated to the "classic" Hanon exercises. except in spirit.


OK, sorry! smile
_________________________
Roland FP-4

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#2319256 - 08/24/14 01:51 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
allakart Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/19/14
Posts: 8
Loc: Croatia, Zagreb
Well guys, good afternoon! It's actually 7 pm in Croatia now. Yes, sorry about my English in advance. I am the new one here. Actually I was leaded by Dave Frank to this post about JazzHanon, but it took me a while to become a little bit more familiar with this forum. First, I also found myself surprised with fingering, as the first JazzHanon in JOI Book One is in Bb. As part of my education was classical, I was taught in that way to take care about all details in playing piano. I am sure if Dave wants to play legato last note of the first phrase and first of the other, or playing in 32th, not just in 8th notes, he would also change the fingerings. But as I believe that here we need to play JazzHanon peaces with different goal, as Dave already said to become better in some technical goals and building the strength of fingers, as well as a way to forget the past teachers, teachings, concepts and styles, and focus on Dave's suggestions and leadership. Who wants to master this two books and Dave's method has to accept the way! I actually did some fingering by myself while I was waiting for Dave's answer *(sorry Dave, and thanks "jawhitti" for letting me know that it was written on page 18 already!!! I apologize, but could you imagine that you should read this book in Croatian? Well, I have made some steps towards English with some learning last few years, so I am here in slightly better position, fortunately!) Well, I started for a week with that "my" fingering so I do it like this in Bb, then I do it in Dave's way, and transpose it in the Dave's way only! It's much easier, and I can more think about what I am doing, and fingers start to warm without unnecessary thinking about fingering! Good! I don't want to skip the admiring how "Cudo" alias Armin Keil did the Hanon "always in a musical context", I like the approach, and wish to have this wma (the sheet music) transcribed... Armin if it's not a big problem.., You could help us with some of Your concept(s)! Finally, I have to thanks all those who wrote this posts, unfortunately few years ago, and to ask you to keep in touch with me if you have some free time or some good will of course, or if you are even here anymore. Also I invite those who have just come like me to keep in touch as support to each other for the future wins.
_________________________
Sincerely, K

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#2319490 - 08/25/14 04:06 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
Cudo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 135
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
Hi allakart,

my hanon exercise is thought for improvisation purpose, that for it is a good thing to memories by heart how it is working.

1.) the hanon figures are transposed from heptatonic to pentatonic. As a result a skip in the heptatonic scale is interpreted as a skip in the pentatonic scale.
Hanons 1. first figure in the exercise No. 1 c e f g a g f e becomes c' e' g' a' c'' a' g' e'. The range of one figure is always an octave.

2.) the underlying rhythmical principle is eight note triplets. The eight note triplets are grouped in four notes a unit. 3 four note units make up a bar.

3.) the left hand plays the chords with the basic pentatonic of the key of the moment. The right hand uses a pentatonic starting a fifth higher than the left hand.

4.) the left hand plays a long meter figure over 2 bars, based on dotted quarter notes.


This is the basic exercise I do on Hanon.
What I did in the example before is basically the same but the harmonic progression is quite different.



Edited by Cudo (08/26/14 02:29 AM)

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#2319499 - 08/25/14 04:51 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
allakart Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/19/14
Posts: 8
Loc: Croatia, Zagreb
Here it is if someone is interested in...

JazzHanon 1 JOI L1 in Bb

LH
Ascending Descending
54321345 12345431
43212345 21345432
43212345 12345432
43212345 12345431
43121345 21345432
43212345 12345432
43212345 12345432
43121345 12345---

RH
12345312 54321235
(21345312) (54312135)
12345312 43121235
12345321 43212135
21345312 43212135
12345312 43212135
12345312 43121235
12345321 43212135
21345321 43212---
(21345312)
_________________________
Sincerely, K

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#2319504 - 08/25/14 05:14 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
allakart Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/19/14
Posts: 8
Loc: Croatia, Zagreb
wow, Cudo,thanks man! I will try it, but maybe I will have also some questions... let me do it on piano first. Seems to me this is kind a addendum to JOI studing, thanks a lot! BTW what are U using as a sheet music app? Sibelius?
_________________________
Sincerely, K

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#2319550 - 08/25/14 07:48 AM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
Riddler Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 600
Loc: Florida
I have a book called Jazz Hanon, by Peter Deneff, which has exercises based mostly on pentatonics, with LH chording. Most of the exercises have an eight note pattern as you go up the keyboard, then a mirror image pattern going down. I have been practicing these with two hands instead of one, with one hand doing the original pattern while the other plays the mirror image. Keeps it interesting, builds up my LH, maybe even helps a bit with hand independence. I have also tried this with Dave's JOI Hanon.

Ed
_________________________
http://edsjazzpianopage.blogspot.com/

My fingers are slow, but easily keep pace with my thoughts.


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#2320288 - 08/26/14 05:11 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: Riddler]
allakart Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/19/14
Posts: 8
Loc: Croatia, Zagreb
Thanks Ed, so nice to hear so much possibilities. Only seems to me that I would not have even enough time to follow everything from JOI for sure. Actually I am not a pianist or professional piano performer... jazz piano is kind of my "hobby". Well, probably I will study JOI for few more years then usual, but I have decided to do it!! Also thanks to all of you for every suggestion, I decided to try all of this other stuff, but as information, reading, warming, or just to relax from "mandatory stuff". After trying some Berklee or other school books for jazz piano, I eventually found JOI as a joy of concrete jazz for me! I also like the method and Dave's points of view, strait forward explanations breaking mits about many things I found in those too complicated and wide old books of those other schools for jazz piano. And if I had to play too much "hanonistic" tortures... why to play it without joy??? I think that actually Dave found the way to put one more joyfull "hanon" as Jazz Pattern, but it's always also concrete music, usable. Actually it gives me an idea of taking some transcribed riffs of great pianists and treat them for "Hanon purpose". Of course Hanon is needed, so Dave gave us and the right, second, "real" JazzHanon, as enough for "Hanons" per day! I agree!!! smile Maybe I take some things from them (other "hanons"), but for sure JOI is priority for my piano workouts for a while... keep in touch.
_________________________
Sincerely, K

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#2320298 - 08/26/14 05:45 PM Re: Just got joy of Improv - jazz Hanon question [Re: jawhitti]
Dfrankjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 136
Loc: NYC
You might try the beginning master classes Breakthrough to Improv and Beginning Improvisation Using Modal Vamps both free on YT as ways to start improvising once you've worked on JOI for a little while. I think you'll enjoy it)

Thanks for your post. *sobs*

DF

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