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Hello all.

I am looking to get back into playing the piano after about a 12 year hiatus. With that being said, I am in need of a piano and thinking for my lifestyle a digital piano might be great for me. I started looking at them this weekend, but my head in spinning in a whirlwind. I guess I didnt realize that there were this many digital pianos to choose from. So I was looking for some input on what to look for. I want a quality instrument that will be able to suite my needs for a while so that I dont outgrow the instrument too quickly. I was thinking in the $2500-$3500 price range. I have always been a fan of Yamaha and looked at the Clavinova CLP 440 and the CLP 470, I thought they were very nice instruments. I also played on a Roland HP503 and though it sounded VERY good and had a great feel and touch and felt more responsive than the Yamaha's. However I felt that the action appeared to be quite noisy. I havent got a chance to look at Kawai's yet, that will be next weekend. So does anyone have any input on brands and models, what to look for and what to stay away from? Any input would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

-Dustin

I would first decide if you prefer more the Roland, or more the Yamaha and Kawai sound.

If you would prefer the Yamaha or Kawai sound, which is much brighter than the mellow Roland sound, then compare the 440 and 470 key actions, and try to find a location where you could compare with a Kawai CA 65 and CA 95. I think, this are your 4 candidates then.

If you would prefer Roland sound, check if you feel fine with the HP-505 key action (which is much better than the one of the 503). If this fits your demands, then that´s it. I wouldn´t recommend the 503. Besides the not as high quality key action of the 503 in comparison to the HP 505/507 and LX-15, there are some tiny but sometimes helpful features missing (if I remember correctly regarding the MIDI implementation, the configuration possibilities to play with two headphones, or the possibilites how to use the recorder; better check yourself for details by downloading the 503/505 manual and carefully read through them completely for finding the differences)! If you have the money, check if the 507 (or even LX-15) speaker system fits your needs better. If the speaker system of the 505 is enough for you, then stay with it and better invest money left in an iPad to connect to the HP-505.
If you also want to play other sounds than piano (like church organ or e-organ), then be aware that they are not at all intelligently grouped in the sound banks in the mentioned Roland digital pianos (in my opinion). Yamaha is doing a much better job in providing accessability of these! If you would like to stay with Roland, and would need better accessability to other sounds and to configuration parameters, think about getting a Roland stage piano (300 NX or 700 NX) and buying necessary speakers separately, than thinking about one of the Roland console with integrated speakers. You again would have to check the key actions of 300/700NX to comfort you, though.

Do you think there is any difference in quality between the three brands? They are all made in Indonisia if am correct right?

Yamaha's are usually made from Japan. Kawai's are from Indonesia.

Yamaha, Kawai and Roland are the three top digital piano brands in the world. Any of them is synonym of high quality.

Which one choose? I'm sorry but I'm going to say nothing new: depends on your needs and your taste. Every make has it's pros and cons.

- Roland Supernatural sound engine is very expressive although the tone is no for the taste of everyone (mellow and, in opinion of some people including me, muffled). Their actions are responsive and playable but maybe a bit swallow and light. This can be a defect or a virtue, depends on your point of view. And the action is very noisy, it's probably the noisier one in the market.

- Kawai new actions are heavy enough and in the opinion of many people are quite realistic. I own a HP-305 bought a year ago but if I've had to buy a digital piano today, I'd probably choose a CA-65 with GF wooden action. But that's only an opinion.

- Yamaha is Yamaha. They have a strong pedigree. But while their quality is legendary (and well deserved), they still use more or less the same digital actions they used 10 years ago (slight variants of the GH actions, derived also from 1987's AE action). But today Yamaha is very strong on their pricey but excellent hybrid pianos with real acoustic actions. But while I personally would not recommend to buy a Clavinova, it's only an opinion, there's still many fans of Clavinova (although I think they are a minority on this forum but there's many people in the world ).

If you dont mind me asking why not? Why do people on this forum shy away from the Clavinovas?

I ruled out Roland, I felt that the action was too noisy and the sound was rather muffled.

Im going to look at Kawai's this weekend. Im interested in looking at the CA65 as I believe the CA95 is quite a bit more than the CA65.....

With that being said I think im narrowed down so far to the Yamaha CLP470 or the Kawai CA65. Any others I should look into?

Thanks!

-Dustin

Possibly because people like new things and, as was pointed out, Yamaha update their technology at somewhat slower rate than model numbers. Or perhaps because particular people on this forum people aren't fond of their action or sound, which is very subjective so don't let others persuade you that you should like this and try for yourself, Yamahas may very well suit you.
IMHO Yamaha DPs (to be fair I tested only the current CLP line) is what I would describe as average - not many strong points but not many weak points, which is very important. Rolands for example (again, in my subjective opinion) are extremely unbalanced, you love them for one aspect and hate for another, sort of from one extreme to another. I have read people say "if you buy a Roland, you will no be disappointed" but you may very well be, if you happen to dislike a feature which you and the same time regard as important. This is imho less likely with Yamahas, they won't blow you away but they will no disappoint you.

Thanks! I guess Im not looking for all the bells and whistles as much as I am a good quality instrument with good touch and sound. Most of the sound is going to be with headphones though.......

As the key action of both (CLP470 and CA65) are excellent, and your hands can adapt quickly, don´t forget to take your time to check for the following when visiting the store:

How does the sound react on dynamic playing? How are the volume changes, how are the changes in timbre upon changed speed pressing down the keys?

Play at low volume setting of the speaker system. This is what you will do a lot of time at home when practicing and not wanting to run in trouble with your neighbors. Does the piano sounds and dynamically reacts fine also at low volumes? I saw that the CLP has a "loudness" button to improve the sound for playing at low volumes. I am not sure about the Kawais featuring this. The Rolands do not.

Access the e-piano, church organ sounds, and the e-organ sounds. It maybe that on your journey you might become interested in once enjoying also theses sounds. So, they should be easily accessable, and of course sound nice at well.

Set the speed of the metronome. Play a little bit. Record yourself and listen to yourself. Without finally saving your recorded song, return to practice. This is what you will do a lot of time with a digital piano. It is one of a digital piano´s not so often mentioned but very powerful strength, helping you to practice very efficiently. So, the metronome and recorder functionality should be accessable in a comfortable way. I am mentioning this, because on my HP-505, the metronome speed for practicing and recording is not synchronized, and each time changing between recording and practicing the speed has to be newly adjusted because the recorded speed always jumps to a certain default value but does not use the the last speed which the pianist has had in use. This is very annoying on my Roland digital piano! Only if saving the performance to the long time memory the metronome speeds of the practicing and recorder modes become synchronized. But as you usually won´t save your last practicing run but will just listen once or twice to it you will actually not activate this synchronization and are forced to adjust metronome speeds again and again. The Roland support answered to me that this wouldn´t be a bug, but that it technically would have to be like this. Well, to me it matters what I as the pianist have done last, and with which I want to continue, and I personally don´t want to be forced to adapt to what programmers failed to implement to become a practical helpful feature. On my Roland it is a feature, but not pragmatic to take advantage of in a comfortable way.

[EDIT: adding the following: ]
Because Hooks just commented on it: I love my HP-505 because of its primary piano sound and its dynamic behaviour, especially the changes in timbre. I therefore would not like to change it for anything else on the market at the moment. But some features (accessability of other sounds, and metronome implementation) are very frustrating to use.

I can vouch that CA65 metronome and/or recording usage is quick and easy to use and I can confirm that the same on Roland HPs is horrible. Don't remember about CLPs though, the only thing I remeber is that I "recorded" several mp3s (or wavs) directly to flash drive when playtesting at the store and when I came home, the flash drive was empty. Previously I did the same with Kawai and it was intuitive and worked. I admit that I hadn't read the user manuals prior to going to the stores, but it shows that Kawai operation is more intuitive. Once you learn it, it may be easy on Yamaha too (unlike Roland), I don't know.

Sure! I can only speak for myself but in my opinion Clavinova has become comfortable with their dominant position into the market while the competence invested a lot more on investigation, development and innovation. I think that all the Yamaha's budget on investigation is being invested on their hybrids.

The final result is that Clavinova's action is a variant of a 1987 one! When I tried the last Clavinovas, including the CLP-470 and 480 which aren't cheap, they felt rather nice but I experienced some problems while playing very complex pieces such as Chopin etudes or impressionist pieces. There were slipped even more notes than while playing on acoustic pianos or on Roland's PHA II/III (who doesn't slip a few notes while playing those monsters?). I also didn't feel comfortable playing it, I think GH and variants, including their last Linear Graded Hammers, are a bit tiring, and that's not a good thing. But the most annoying thing is the unnatural response felt.



That's a pity because Supernatural is very expressive and listening from a certain distance (not from the player perspective) is amazingly realistic. In my opinion, listening from that distance, it its the most realistic piano tone out of the three. But the action is very noisy and it's highly noted when played at a not too loud volume, and the sound is muffled when staying close.



Yes, the CA95 is more expensive as you get a soundboard and maybe better speakers (not sure about this).



If you didn't like Roland, I think these are your best options. I would choose Kawai but it's a matter of taste. I don't think other brands such as Kurzeill, Korg and Casio match the big three on your price range. On lower levels Casio is a nice alternative but not at this.

Regarding the relatively level of discussion of Yamaha vs. Kawai, here's a my impression of the history on this board ...

It used to be that Yamaha was the most-discussed line of products. Perhaps that's because they're widely available. Their low-end units are in every music store. And their high-end can be found here in at least three piano dealers here in south Florida.

Not so for Kawai. They're hard to find in the US, and (it seems) even harder to find elsewhere. When I was shopping for a piano four years ago I simply could not find a Kawai. Discredit Kawai for that. So I bought a Yamaha.

It's just in the last year or two that Kawai discussions have taken hold. Perhaps the Kawai distribution network has improved a bit? (Not much here, though. There's just one dealer in my county. But that's better than before.)

But I think it has more to do with the improvements that Kawai has made.

Yamaha sells pianos today that have the same action as those sold more than ten years ago. Still plastic only, and no wood keys (except for the "wood-look" shims on their high-end models.)

And the sound engine has changed little, if at all. (Real Grand Expression vs. the older Advanced Wave Memory seems to be a big name change, with little or no real change.)

Meanwhile Kawai has moved to wooden keys even on their mid-priced products. And they've improved the sound a great deal, it seems.

I presume that this has led to the growing interest in Kawai.

Can you elaborate on this a tad? The Yamaha CLP 470 claims to have "88 uniquely weighted wooden keys"? Along with "Linear Graded Hammers" Is this not true? I dont believe the Yamaha has the "Let off" touch feature either.

You are so wrong. My Yamaha CLP-990 was made in 2001 and had real spruce wooden keys and grand piano action as well as all 88 keys sampled with 5 layers each. There are real wooden hammers hitting contacts, and it feels a lot better while playing it still all these years later than any plastic keys from later CLP models.

I went round the piano shop yesterday (I`d ordered sheet music) and tried all the latest stuff. None of the digitals or acoustics grabbed me like they did in the past. They were everything the Acoustic Exponents claim; colourless, odourless, puerile. I wouldn`t part wi my cash.

There was this Digiano Grand which looked and sounded great, for £2k but the action was crap . . . couldn`t play quiet bits on it.

Finally made it to the music store today to check out the Kawai CA65. All I can say is WOW! I really had my heart set on Yamaha, probably mainly because of the name. But the CA65 had a wonderful touch and sound and way more features than the CLP470 had to offer. It was so much like a piano I couldnt even hardly tell it was electronic. Plus is comes in satin black where the CLP470 does not. I think I may go purchase one next weekend. I just hope the quality is good and it holds up well. I did notice the "A" natural below middle "C" stuck twice during my hour session on playing. Im not sure how normal this is......

@Dustin,

A sticking note is never "normal" so be sure to buy a brand new digital and not a demo model from the store. You will always get a lower price on a used and worn instrument, although it is best advised not to buy one.

Did you have a chance to point out this problem to the sales person?

No i didnt point it out to the salesman. I agree though, I am going to buy a brand new one in the box. Not a worn demo model. I wonder if anyone else has encountered this. I though maybe it needed to be broken in. LOL! The key stuck twice, and I dont think I did anything to cause it to stick like snag it with my sleeve or something?.......

You aren't the first! I also tried very hard to convince myself of the Yamaha actions, but I walked home with a Kawai because of the touch.

I'm not too experienced with this stuff, but you aren't supposed to have sticky keys at any point. Maybe someone splashed some cooldrink on the demo model :P

Interesting opinions on the Yamahas... I'm also hunting for a new DP and after countless evenings of research and aural tests I have narrowed down the options to the CLP 470 and the CA-95. Most stores that sell Yamaha DP's really seem to push those for some reason -- I engaged in a chat with an assistant in one of the stores about a week ago and asked him why they also don't stock any Kawai models. He seemed a little surprised by that question but he said that basically no one ever wants those. Figures...

At any rate, I was able to sit down at the CLP 470 in that store some months ago and really liked what I heard (and saw) and the key action also seemed fine (but since I've never played a piano before I can't really play judge here). I was actually firmly decided to get the CLP 470 once I save up enough money...

...but that was before I heard the new CA-95 on YouTube (there's a link to a promotional video floating around here). I fell in love with its sound and liked the looks of that beauty as well. It costs somewhat more than the 470 but it's still within the limit. What's worse, however, is that none of the stores around here stocks it -- they only supply these on request. I was able to toy a bit with Kawai CS3 to at least get a taste of the Let-off feature (kinda weird if you ask me ) but I reckon the CS3 is a different league. I might try to ask them if they could get one unit overhere for a tryout because at the moment, the CA-95 really seems miles ahead of any CLP in terms of technology and features.