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#2013405 - 01/12/13 12:13 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1190
Loc: Qubec, Canada
I thought Doelkees was being sarcastic. That piano is not in tune at all.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2013703 - 01/12/13 10:46 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.

Kees


Saving face is one thing. Going on to attack two little girls giving a concert is another. It Just looks like peevishness.

Didn't you ever give a concert when you were a little girl?

Your reply lends credence to another suspicion of mine, that being the state of sobriety of many posters. The pitiful long and short term effects of absinthe are well known, I'm amazed anybody still uses it.

Going online under its influence also could make it look like you might have been drinking alone.

Let's put it down to that and leave it there, thus disproving one more adage; absinthe does not make the heart grow fonder.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2013857 - 01/13/13 10:25 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1704
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
rxd, I'll go to church when I need a sermon, thank you very much.
Kees

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#2013858 - 01/13/13 10:31 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Doubtful it is genuine wormwood rxd, mostly likely the product artesium absinthium. Genuine absinthe causes neurological disorders and seizures etc.

Interestingly enough it was British importer BBH Spirits who initilally began to import Hill's Absinthe from the Czech Republic, which sparked a renewed interest in the product in the early 90’s. The product that came from the Czech Republic, Spain and Portugal was considered inferior as it used bohemian product in its manufacture.

In yr 2000 absinthe began production in France, the first time since 1914 or something like that. Today there are dozens of manufacturers in France.

Then in 2004 Amsterdam wine seller Menno Boorsma challenged the ban in Holland (as the ban was a conflict and never was a formal one.)

2007 saw the French ironically named Lucid brand become the first genuine absinthe to be made and receive a COLA certificate to import to the US.

St George Spirits of Alameda CA become the first manufacturer in the US.

In May of 2011 the (1915) ban in France was repealed.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2013862 - 01/13/13 10:39 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
St. George Sprits, must have been a hehe, I love these, "spirited fellow" huh?

I've suspected the same thing over time as rxd that certain posters drink first, post and then think later. Now me, I'm on drugs on accounta I just had Gallbladder kicked out of my body so I have an excuse! hehe. Even then, I think my spellin is a bit of a problem more than anything else! smile But then, what else is new??? I've always had a problem with my spelling! ha
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2013895 - 01/13/13 11:56 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1514
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Step up to the plate and give those people your best.
Practice, practice, practice.

Thank rxd for your message I shall try do it again and I think so a temperament be much better
Regards,Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2013898 - 01/13/13 12:06 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1514
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Originally Posted By: rxd

many of the tuners in here can't hear worth a crap.

I urge not to write this offensive language here
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2013905 - 01/13/13 12:17 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1514
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.
Kees

DoelKees, perhaps not everything was at Maxim, but this is not the "vodka" or as in your case (absinthe). Sometimes even some beats in unison and not quite perfect octave lies refined aesthetic pleasure. There is a good Russian proverb: "There are no ugly women, there are only few of vodka" (joke)

DoelKees, быть может не всё получилось у Максима, однако причина не в "вине" или как в Вашем случае (absinthe). Иногда даже в некоторых биениях в унисонах и не совсем чистых квартах и октавах кроется утончённое эстетическое наслаждение. Есть хорошая русская пословица: "Не бывает некрасивых женщин,бывает только мало водки" (шутка)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2013908 - 01/13/13 12:22 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Max, crap is not considered a naughty word.

2ndly, having bad sounding unisons is NOT acceptable under any circumstances and trying to pawn them off as being "okay or acceptable in any manner is wrong." They are out of tune, the piano itself is at LEAST 1/4 of a tone flat of pitch. There is no excuse for that one alone. The octaves are all out of tune. You ask for advice and then reprimand US for giving it. There is no way I can take you serious with that kind of attitude.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2014152 - 01/13/13 11:25 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1704
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.
Kees

DoelKees, perhaps not everything was at Maxim, but this is not the "vodka" or as in your case (absinthe). Sometimes even some beats in unison and not quite perfect octave lies refined aesthetic pleasure. There is a good Russian proverb: "There are no ugly women, there are only few of vodka" (joke)

DoelKees, быть может не всё получилось у Максима, однако причина не в "вине" или как в Вашем случае (absinthe). Иногда даже в некоторых биениях в унисонах и не совсем чистых квартах и октавах кроется утончённое эстетическое наслаждение. Есть хорошая русская пословица: "Не бывает некрасивых женщин,бывает только мало водки" (шутка)


I understand the proverb, it's funny and has some wisdom behind it.

Jerry Groot likes to tune all unisons beatless, but studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off. This is why many people like a professional tuning better after a couple of days, when things have moved out of perfection.

Of course if you can tune beatless unisons you can also tune lively unisons, but if all you can tune is lively unisons you can not tune pure unisons. Food for thought.

Kees

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#2014216 - 01/14/13 03:42 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
Mark R. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1966
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off.


What studies? Can you point us to them?

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2014297 - 01/14/13 09:02 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot? And Patrick, and David Jensen and Bill Bremmer, and Dan Silverwood and Emmery, and grandpianoman, and Jeff and BDB and Bob Maret and Loren DiGiorgi and pretty much everyone else in here that can hear if a piano is out of tune or not Kee's. You're in the minority and you're wrong. So is Max.

Sometimes, I really wonder if you know what the heck you're talking about or not Kee's?

You may be able to spout off mathmatics like nobody's business but that is totally meaningless jibberish if you cannot do a good job of tuning or do not wish too.Or if you just like unison's that are out of tune. You a screwy wabbit u are...

I don't know how many pianos you tune a year but, prior to my health issues which have been going on for the past 2 or 3 years, I was tuning on average around 1,000 pianos per year and I was tuning for one heck of a lot of piano concerts.

Customers want the piano they are playing on to be in tune NOW, not two days after the concert is done with.... This is almost hilarious! I say, almost... smile


Edited by Jerry Groot RPT (01/14/13 09:11 AM)
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2014303 - 01/14/13 09:24 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3555
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I'm not a technician, but that tuning is completely unacceptable to me. It sounds terrible - like the kind of tuning you hear a movie set in an old western saloon. The young ladies playing on it are succeeding in spite of the tuning, not because of it.

I'm only a novice tuner, and I'm not an expert in setting temperaments, but at least I can get clean and stable unisons. To me that is a bare minimum for a tuning. This tuning fails that most basic of tests.

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#2014313 - 01/14/13 09:48 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7256
Loc: Rochester MN
The piano is dreadful.

The performances are not.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2014317 - 01/14/13 09:55 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2360
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Max, I'll give my critique on the tuning here. I have software here for some decent analysis. The majority of the keys are indeed about 22-28 cents flat in the central 4 octaves, with the exception of G's and D's, which are about 5 cents flat. This indicates the temperament has got some issues also unless this is something other than ET. You need to check the calibration of your tuning fork to something valid. The tuning fork is a fickle thing, susceptable to changes from temperature, nicks and scratches, rust, ect. The treble and extreme treble increase in flatness up to about 50 cents. I beleive you need to find some useful checks for this that puts it up where it needs to be. The highest octave typically ends up 25-35 cents higher than normal, not lower. The unisons are far too busy/dirty. I am talking about a disparity that goes beyond "having extra energy". In laymens terms, the unisons are out of tune. With the music the girls were playing, a solid ET tuning with clean unisons and octaves would more than suffice. The saloon pianos of the west sounded the way they did because they travelled cross country on bumpy wagon rides, not because there was a particular dirty tuning style for them. They were often not tuned, or at best, a fiddle player or a saloon singer would attempt to pull up the worst notes with a crude tool the town blacksmith would fashion for them. Max, make sure you start with a referance point of A440. It would be extremely embarrasing if you get called to tune somewhere the piano will be played with a fixed pitch instrument....even people with wooden ears will pick up on that. I would likely do 2 or 3 passes on a piano that sounded like this one likely did before you started tuning it.


Edited by Emmery (01/14/13 09:58 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2014365 - 01/14/13 11:22 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1514
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Max, I'll give my critique on the tuning here.


Dear Emmery, I am glad to receive your message. I sorry that you have to devote a lot of time analyzing my clip's tuning.
I took tuning a grand because really wanted to do it. In our country town no professional piano tuner and music school administrator asked me made temperament. My fee was $ 13. «Bluthner" for many years set (A = 438). Prior to the concert was less than a day. I began to move with this tone, because he was afraid to break the strings. Replace torn, there is no opportunity here. After the concert, I checked temperament. I did not catch the big differences for yourself. Fa3 note was slightly lower. Good not sounded as H4, F# 4 so. I did a temperament as I could. I will heed the advice of tech. experts for increase their own skills.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2014367 - 01/14/13 11:24 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1514
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
The piano is dreadful.

The performances are not.

showmustgoon
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2014374 - 01/14/13 11:29 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: ando]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1514
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: ando
like the kind of tuning you hear a movie set in an old western saloon.

Financial and moral state of culture in Kazakhstan is now at a level much like the Wild West, the late nineties of the 19th century
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2014378 - 01/14/13 11:38 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1704
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
The correct order for replying to a post is:

1) read
2) think
3) reply

Kees

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#2014385 - 01/14/13 11:52 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1514
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.
Kees

DoelKees, perhaps not everything was at Maxim, but this is not the "vodka" or as in your case (absinthe). Sometimes even some beats in unison and not quite perfect octave lies refined aesthetic pleasure. There is a good Russian proverb: "There are no ugly women, there are only few of vodka" (joke)

DoelKees, быть может не всё получилось у Максима, однако причина не в "вине" или как в Вашем случае (absinthe). Иногда даже в некоторых биениях в унисонах и не совсем чистых квартах и октавах кроется утончённое эстетическое наслаждение. Есть хорошая русская пословица: "Не бывает некрасивых женщин,бывает только мало водки" (шутка)

Of course if you can tune beatless unisons you can also tune lively unisons, but if all you can tune is lively unisons you can not tune pure unisons.

Kees, bravo. It is realy "alive unisons." I'm trying to do unisons, octaves, and especially B3 is alive. If some keys are flat I hear sounds, I'm looking for the cause and often slightly over lifting tone in choirs. Last 10 extreme bass strings(keys) do just below the total temperament

Хорошая темперация, с моей точки зрения, это не только качественно звучащие звуки в соответствии с законами классических устоев теории музыки.Это прежде всего эстетическое наслаждение исполнителя и слушателя от качественного разделения октавы на 12 равных отрезков.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2014389 - 01/14/13 12:01 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3848
A "live" unison still doesn't beat, it swishes, in my opinion. Max, please listen to as many properly tuned pianos as you can. Get some classical recordings. Look at some videos. Your tunings still need improvement.

Pianos I've tuned three years ago sound better than that upright you just tuned. Oh, when using a vacuum, wear ear protection. I agree with others comments on the grand.

_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#2014392 - 01/14/13 12:07 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark R.]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1704
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off.


What studies? Can you point us to them?

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.

Roger E. Kirk, "Tuning preferences for Piano Unison Groups", J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 31 (1959): 1644-48.

Reviewed in Arthur H. Benade, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics", 2nd ed. pp.335-336.

Kees

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#2014404 - 01/14/13 12:15 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Bob]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1514
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Bob
A "live" unison still doesn't beat, it swishes, in my opinion.

I agree with you Bob. I shall improve myself in my tuning. It is arguable that there is a pure unison without beats. What is this? or an easy waves between the three strings is?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2014412 - 01/14/13 12:27 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Bob]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1514
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Bob

Pianos I've tuned three years ago sound better than that upright you just tuned.

I glad for your piano tuning after 3 years ago. But Max and many tech. wanted listen it's. Is it possible?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2014444 - 01/14/13 01:14 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2360
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Max, the unisons will couple together when they get close enough to each other. A very slight difference in frequency will average out between two or 3 strings so it is important to listen to the overall sound in the end. Many tuners have different methods to tune them. Although some tuners believe the reason for multiple strings on a note is to provide richness to the tone, its primary purpose is to boost the amplitude to similar levels as the lower single bass strings. To this effect, try and get the two and 3 string unisons to sound as one good string sounding by itself.

The first noticable thing to go out of tune on pianos are the unisons. They will get swishy unisons in short order if they are played regularly so I don't feel the need to speed up the process by tuning them that way to begin with. Besides, there is no predictable way to determine which string will drift which way so an purposeful deviation sharp or flat may turn ito a compound error if that string continues to drift in that direction. Doesn't take much to go from slow and swishy to what others would call clearly out of tune.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2014456 - 01/14/13 01:34 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3848
Max, how many pianos do you tune in a day? To practice and improve, tune at least four pianos a day - or tune the same piano four times a day (change the pitch 5 cents up and down each time). Tune four pianos a day, five days a week for two months, then post another video. During that time compare your tunings to recordings and try to find someone to spend an hour teaching you.

I would expect to hear a significant improvement in two months in your tunings if you practice like that.

I know things are difficult where you live - but difficult means work harder and overcome. Looking forward to a video in 2 months from you with audible improvements.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#2014463 - 01/14/13 01:53 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2360
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Max, if someone has a cell phone around you there are many free apps for them that shows the tuning of notes in HZ. Have someone with a phone check your tuning fork or whatever your using for its accuracy. There is really no excuse for a tuned piano to be that far off from referance pitch.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2014684 - 01/14/13 11:16 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1704
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off.


What studies? Can you point us to them?

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.

Roger E. Kirk, "Tuning preferences for Piano Unison Groups", J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 31 (1959): 1644-48.

Reviewed in Arthur H. Benade, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics", 2nd ed. pp.335-336.

Kees

Probably more in appropriate in a unison tuning thread, but I uploaded the Kirk (a Baldwin employee btw) paper here. Hope it's legal and I won't end up like Aaron Swartz.

Kees

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#2014725 - 01/15/13 02:20 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Bob]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1514
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Bob
Tune four pianos a day, five days a week for two months, then post another video. During that time compare your tunings to recordings and try to find someone to spend an hour teaching you.

Thank,Bob. If don't see this grand piano, then my main job is to try to restore the junk vertical. Which ultimately should resound. So before you start to tuning the "Belarus" I must first install the broken strings and put cardboard shim under pins. I'm must configure a semitone lower, otherwise there will be failure. I have not a possibility the tuning (2-3 piano) on the day .
_________________________
A=440
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#2014726 - 01/15/13 02:24 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1514
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
To this effect, try and get the two and 3 string unisons to sound as one good string sounding by itself.

I'm try do it now
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