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#2019256 - 01/22/13 07:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 659
Loc: Leicester, UK
very nice. thanx for posting that ...

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#2019296 - 01/22/13 08:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
If we're done with the flame wars, I'd like to discuss a real issue.

A real issue...nice one JW.

And no, I'm not entirely satisfied with the outcome. I still don't think there are any players doing that kind of reharm these days that JB was attempting there. Maybe I was a bit harsh saying it was a mistake, but please, someone point me in the direction that this type of playing is present(and popular) now in jazz. Who plays like this? What has it morphed into?
I get it that he was doing something contrary/dissonant. I get it that he urged his students to do the same. But why do I not hear this happening with his students now? Has this period of experimentation passed in jazz, or is it now simply mostly found in free jazz? Or are the modern players actually influenced by the likes of JB, but never went to the extreme that he did?

The issue of playing 'outside' has always interested me, but I'm convinced that most people don't really know how to do it musically. I think Pilc actually talks about the same thing. Perhaps he still believes it too? We discussed it on this very thread in fact.

Oh, and for the record, I was digging through my recordings of Miles Davis, and listened to Cookin' At the Plugged Nickel with Herbie Hancock on piano playing Stella. Lots of the same stuff happening in his solo. I can hear that. But to my ears, this type of playing is not present anymore. I believe, as Dave F said, that it might even 'raise some eyebrows' these days. So my question remains: What has this type of playing become? And have people shrunk the boundaries into acceptable 'listenable' limits? Or, really, are there recordings out there that still have this type of playing, with these types of dissonance (in this raw manner) by major players?
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#2019329 - 01/22/13 09:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7085
Loc: So. California
.



Edited by jazzwee (01/23/13 08:36 PM)
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#2019530 - 01/23/13 09:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 630
Loc: Chicago
I do not think the notes Byard uses are unusual, but they are normally used as passing notes. In other words, but makes the two much-discussed notes stand out is that Byard lingers over them at a relaxed tempo; he wants the dissonance to sink in. In Hancock's solos you'll find tons of notes that don't fit the harmony, but they come and go very quickly. They fit the melody Hancock is playing, even if they don't fit the harmony.

I don't think the kind of emphasized dissonance Byard uses has influenced mainstream jazz; it is really more a free jazz concept that Byard uses in an otherwise non-free-jazz solo. Indeed, I think that's what Byard was known for; his amalgamation of many styles.

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#2019541 - 01/23/13 09:28 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
It must be nice to just completely miss out a note, and claim it was intended. And if you don't get it, shame on you!

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#2019554 - 01/23/13 09:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 659
Loc: Leicester, UK
jjo, ithat's a pretty astute analysis and if you carry the 'passing dissonance' idea a little further it applies to all kinds of lines easily found - even long lines that stay outside of changes.. the thinfg is, w/labels ... coltrane when playing over changes is usually considered 'mainstream.'

in one of his 'mainstream' recordings of impression that i can think of right now, over a d minor chord, he plays: a d c# eb. the first three pitches are eighth notes (beginning on the and of 1). the eb which gets the emphasis is a half/note. he plays it loud!

p52, 4th measure in the omnibook, cp plays Eb G Bb Db. rhe chord at that point in rhythm changes is usually a d min. 7. so there' an example of a entire arpeggio a half step higher than the 'usual' chord. and the Eb is on the downbeat of the measure. now, there are others to analyze that, but the one offered here is as plausible as any other.

in emphasizing the word 'mainsteam, i'm trying to show that that word describes a pretty huge body of practice which also encompasses precisely this stuff being discussed.

my opinion is this thread is has gotten a little too argumentitive with 'show me, 'prove it,' 'i''never seen this before type remarks. i'm not saying this to continue in an argumentive mode - and if anyone reads my tone as argumentative, i apologize. having said that the kind of outside playing we're discussing is well within the mainstream, it's been absorbed, and it's used all the time. and, btw, your analysis of HH's use of this stuff is also very astute - if you or anyone tracks down his 7 steps transcription on the web (easy to find), you'll find his usage in that instance EXACTLY as you've described.

this river of practice we're all discussing is out there and it's not hard to find. in fact it's easy to find the examples. very easy. BUT you (the collective you) have to go out there and find them. the river doesn't come to you! (again, the collective you ...) ...

hope this helps ...!!

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#2019597 - 01/23/13 11:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 630
Loc: Chicago
knotty: Don't know if you ever say the play "Art," but it revolved around a person buying an entirely white canvas, which he though was art, but his friends differed. It was a pretty popular plays some years back.

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#2019634 - 01/23/13 12:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: printer1

my opinion is this thread is has gotten a little too argumentitive with 'show me, 'prove it,' 'i''never seen this before type remarks. i'm not saying this to continue in an argumentive mode - and if anyone reads my tone as argumentative, i apologize.

I'm the only one saying these remarks, and I also don't mean them to be argumentative, so I also apologize. I really learn best when I can hear what people are talking about though, rather than having something musical written out.
Originally Posted By: printer

...having said that the kind of outside playing we're discussing is well within the mainstream, it's been absorbed, and it's used all the time...
this river of practice we're all discussing is out there and it's not hard to find. in fact it's easy to find the examples. very easy. BUT you (the collective you) have to go out there and find them. the river doesn't come to you! (again, the collective you ...)

Printer, if it were easy for me to find this kind of dissonance on modern recordings (80s-2010) I wouldn't be taking the stance I'm currently taking. Again, I understand what outside playing is (I can't do it well enough to satisfy my own ear half the time), but I also don't believe that what was considered hip in the 60s to late 70s is still considered hip. I think it perhaps set a stage for playing outside, but IMHO that stage was still quite unfinished.
I would like to hear clips of something current that has this type of playing if it still exists because what I hear nowadays is more structures of outside playing that, as you mentioned, may have entire arpeggios, scales, patterns, etc, that are removed from the underlying chord changes, but still have enough of a form to them that they divide the listeners attentions to hear a melody that may be in Bmaj and the chords underneath in Bbmaj.

Maybe ultimately we are talking about the same stuff here, but are simply disagreeing about something more personal. Again, I'm not trying to attack anyone personally here, not printer, not JB, not Dave F or JW, but rather, I would like to learn something that seems to have eluded me. Posting clips of the playing I'm searching for would do it.
To be fair, I'm not sure the HH clip is current enough. I hear exactly the kinds of things that I never really liked in that clip, but I'm also not convinced I've heard anyone besides HH play that way. And, as JW mentioned, it seems to be on a different level than the JB clip. I see the HH recording as a precursor to what is more acceptable today in that 'outside' playing has become more of an exact science now rather than a musical experiment without parameters.

How about that last phrase? Is that more palatable?


Edited by scepticalforumguy (01/24/13 02:22 AM)
Edit Reason: missed a 'b' sign...
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#2019653 - 01/23/13 01:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7085
Loc: So. California
.


Edited by jazzwee (01/23/13 08:34 PM)
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#2019663 - 01/23/13 01:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7085
Loc: So. California
.


Edited by jazzwee (01/23/13 08:33 PM)
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#2019690 - 01/23/13 02:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 659
Loc: Leicester, UK
scept .. i think i hear you smile we're on the same page. jazzwee is there too! (same page!). and the version of con alma he mentions has a lot to do with this discussion - and is very related to all of this. but i have another idea ... details coming ....

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#2019800 - 01/23/13 05:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7085
Loc: So. California
.


Edited by jazzwee (01/23/13 08:33 PM)
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#2019811 - 01/23/13 05:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: jjo
knotty: Don't know if you ever say the play "Art," but it revolved around a person buying an entirely white canvas, which he though was art, but his friends differed. It was a pretty popular plays some years back.


JJo,

I did not but I'm sure I'd love it smile
There are a few good stories about Picasso, too.

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#2019831 - 01/23/13 06:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
Originally Posted By: jjo
knotty: Don't know if you ever say the play "Art," but it revolved around a person buying an entirely white canvas, which he though was art, but his friends differed. It was a pretty popular plays some years back.

JJo, I did not but I'm sure I'd love it smile There are a few good stories about Picasso, too.
It was a slight take on Ad Reinhardt's black paintings. My, aren't we getting artsy. smile
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#2019879 - 01/23/13 07:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 659
Loc: Leicester, UK
pleaz keep writing personal notes of discovery .... and would be very interesting to see the transcription if that's possible.

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#2019910 - 01/23/13 08:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7085
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: printer1
pleaz keep writing personal notes of discovery .... and would be very interesting to see the transcription if that's possible.


printer1, I've transferred my discoveries (re: outside playing) to my blog (link below). It's under the heading "Playing 'Outside' - Parts 1-3..."

Somehow, my comments are being construed as pontificating on my supposed smartness in jazz rather than just revealing my discoveries.

I think you understand that I like to discuss and debate and I acknowledge that it's all a process of discovery.

This is such an awesome subject matter but I want it to be productive.

printer1, if you'd like to make comments here about what I say in the blog, please feel free to do so. I will keep expanding my own discoveries in the blog as I realize them. Perhaps you can add things to help me discover more.

BTW on writing the transcription down, I can write the notes down easily but am not good at notating the rhythm. Maybe that's a project too.



Edited by jazzwee (01/23/13 11:41 PM)
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#2019912 - 01/23/13 08:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 659
Loc: Leicester, UK
jazzwee .. your notes in the blog are very perceptive. the nice thing about kenny werner's method is it's based on just beings curious about what's coming out. his book great statements about how to do that and why to do that.

... not sure who thinks you're pontificating (let it be said that from this writers' thread you're not) ... you did start this thread 190+ web pages ago. so SOMEONE has to keep it going!

i've often write notes after practicing ... it helps to remind me of what i was doing. if you can write con alma down, even in some simple way, maybe others out here forum land could assist or correct, etc... transcribing isn't easy, as you well know, but it's really the only way to get at the essential stuff we need.

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#2019998 - 01/23/13 11:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7085
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: printer1
jazzwee .. your notes in the blog are very perceptive. the nice thing about kenny werner's method is it's based on just beings curious about what's coming out. his book great statements about how to do that and why to do that.

... not sure who thinks you're pontificating (let it be said that from this writers' thread you're not) ... you did start this thread 190+ web pages ago. so SOMEONE has to keep it going!

i've often write notes after practicing ... it helps to remind me of what i was doing. if you can write con alma down, even in some simple way, maybe others out here forum land could assist or correct, etc... transcribing isn't easy, as you well know, but it's really the only way to get at the essential stuff we need.


I'm remembering some other things I missed. So I'll keep using the blog as note taking.

Please add some more ideas on structured 'outside' playing. I'm sure I've only skimmed the surface. But it is good to write it down because when I play I have recall it on my fingers instantaneously. And obviously I can't because I didn't really practice it, I just know it intellectually.

I will attempt to write down the transcription of the first A of Con Alma. I've got the notes down. I just have to position them exactly in the bar. I was surprised at how many augmented shapes there were. Some not too obvious because of the phrasing.

One thing I did realize on this outside playing with #5 reharms on every chord is that there is only one 'tension' note per chord (obviously the #5). So there's still consonance with most of it. Thus, if you don't try to understand it too closely and just react to it, it's not too far out sounding. At least that's my reaction.

BTW printer1, I do want to record someday just doing what Kenny Werner did. And the funny thing is that when you just do it with confidence, it actually sounds like what he does smile It's actually freeing to do at a gig. It's like an acknowledgement before you play that THERE IS NO WRONG NOTE.
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#2020008 - 01/23/13 11:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7085
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: jjo
jazzwee: don't mean to harp on this, but where is the Cm in Beatrice?


jjo, I missed this question...

My changes (8 bars)
| FMaj7 | GbMaj7#11 | FMaj7 | EbMaj7#11 |
| D-7 | EbMaj7#11 | D-7 C-7 | Bb-7 |

Are you using different ones? I'm just reading this from iRealB but I recall it being the same on the old fake books (Colorado Book I think).

I have several version of Con Alma as well.
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#2020064 - 01/24/13 01:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I've never used that Cm7 passing chord...that's nice..thanks.

what's the "Colorado Book" ?

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

BTW on writing the transcription down, I can write the notes down easily but am not good at notating the rhythm. Maybe that's a project too.


Clare Fischer told me a long time ago that by writing out your stuff, it will make you a better sight reader. He was very right... cool


Edited by Dave Ferris (01/24/13 01:54 AM)
Edit Reason: added thought
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#2020079 - 01/24/13 02:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7085
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

what's the "Colorado Book" ?


Let's just say there's a master DVD of all the OLD Real Books, Bill Evans Book, Jazz Fake Book, Colorado Book.

Colorado has the best changes almost all the time. AP swears by it. Just for comparison, it has the best changes for Invitation and Dolphin Dance.

Anyway, it's quite possible that I've had a chance to view this DVD once or twice wink. I presume the original Colorado Book was published by someone way back when (illegally I'm sure).

Personally, if there are changes in multiple books, I will look at Colorado first.

EDIT - Now I'm trying to learn how to use Sibelius here. Getting the notes down was the easy part. I've got a slow-down app on my iphone. Took me no time at all.

But I will do this...if it kills me.


Edited by jazzwee (01/24/13 02:46 AM)
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#2020085 - 01/24/13 03:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
I've never used that Cm7 passing chord...that's nice..thanks.

You'll find it here:
http://www.directionsinmusic.com/Beatrice_no_keysig.pdf

Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
what's the "Colorado Book" ?

It's called "The Colorado Cookbook, tasty tunes for the musical gourmet"
A fakebook, with quite a good collection of tunes.
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#2020112 - 01/24/13 05:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 659
Loc: Leicester, UK
thanks everyone for mentioning the colorado cookbook. i just found it and downloaded it. amazing what's out there on the internet.

jazzwee ... the inside outside stuff we've been discussing ... another great great solo is mccoy tyner on passion dance. here's the trancription.

http://www.jazzeducationdatabase.com/ind...8&Itemid=60

matrix, by chick corea, which you've mentioned (blues in f), is fabulous. there are transcriptions of that out on the web and bill dobbins transcribed the entire "now he sings now he sobs recording" ... an amazing document.

another great solo: herbie hancock's eye of the hurricane (fm blues) ... in some ways, it's like the companion piece to matrix and vice versa. you could look at those two solos as state-of-the-art piano playing in the 60s. but those are only two examples ...

http://dmitri.tymoczko.com/files/transcriptions/eye.pdf

BUT. the more i go through the omnibook, the more i see it as the no. 1 source.

the kenny werner book you've been mentioning is great.

and here's another really interesting book ...

http://ranblake.com/pote/pote-2/

hope that helps!

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#2020118 - 01/24/13 05:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: printer1
http://dmitri.tymoczko.com/files/transcriptions/eye.pdf
BUT. the more i go through the omnibook, the more i see it as the no. 1 source.

Thanks for those links, great stuff indeed!
If any of you have problems (like me) getting the file, here's the direct link to the page:
http://dmitri.tymoczko.com/transcriptions.html (which has many more interesting transcriptions).


I agree on the Omnibook, it's great - for many reasons.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2020241 - 01/24/13 10:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I have a few books of transcriptions that aren't out there on the net. They were transcribed by a local vibes player...Jon Nagourney.

Solos from Kenny Barron, Hank Jones (his all time favorite) and Sonny Clark. I also have Bud Powell solos..many of which aren't in that one BP fakebook by the popular publisher whose name escapes me this early in the morning.

He also has various real books of his own with some real obscure type of tunes.

Unfortunately I know of no way to share this stuff with you guys as it's in a spiral notebook and not digitally stored. For US guys I guess you could call John and he'd ship...he's a little high on prices imo...especially compared to free... wink

In any case thanks for all the links.
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#2020259 - 01/24/13 10:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7085
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: printer1
thanks everyone for mentioning the colorado cookbook. i just found it and downloaded it. amazing what's out there on the internet.

jazzwee ... the inside outside stuff we've been discussing ... another great great solo is mccoy tyner on passion dance. here's the trancription.

http://www.jazzeducationdatabase.com/ind...8&Itemid=60

matrix, by chick corea, which you've mentioned (blues in f), is fabulous. there are transcriptions of that out on the web and bill dobbins transcribed the entire "now he sings now he sobs recording" ... an amazing document.

another great solo: herbie hancock's eye of the hurricane (fm blues) ... in some ways, it's like the companion piece to matrix and vice versa. you could look at those two solos as state-of-the-art piano playing in the 60s. but those are only two examples ...

http://dmitri.tymoczko.com/files/transcriptions/eye.pdf

BUT. the more i go through the omnibook, the more i see it as the no. 1 source.

the kenny werner book you've been mentioning is great.

and here's another really interesting book ...

http://ranblake.com/pote/pote-2/

hope that helps!




printer1, I've worked through the transcription of Matrix long ago. So I know that's diminished cycle dominant substitution and then pentatonics/quartals on top. I believe I already have that listed.

McCoy Tyner -- his is one I haven't really studied much. It's quartals started on different parts of the chord, not just the root, I recall. But this one needs more study.

Specifically, though, what different aspect of outside playing do the others address as it relates to my blog list?
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#2020290 - 01/24/13 11:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1201
Loc: uk south
If it be transcriptions you are after this is good site...

http://www.saxopedia.com/transcriptions-piano/

Far too much to ingest in a lifetime (75 Jarrett transcriptions alone).
Personally I don't bother as I feel the value of transcription is in doing the transcriptions, not in just treating jazz as written material, but I am unusual in that I think. Anyway check it out if you are short of stuff to look at.
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#2020291 - 01/24/13 11:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1201
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


Specifically, though, what different aspect of outside playing do the others address as it relates to my blog list?



My view is that we should play what we hear. If we can hear outside notes or phrases or chords in our minds then we should play them.
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#2020292 - 01/24/13 11:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Specifically, though, what different aspect of outside playing do the others address as it relates to my blog list?

My view is that we should play what we hear. If we can hear outside notes or phrases or chords in our minds then we should play them.
+1
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2020320 - 01/24/13 12:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
The Geometry of Music
"what makes music sound good"

Interesting: http://dmitri.tymoczko.com/whatmakesmusicsoundgood.html
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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