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#2018464 - 01/21/13 03:13 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
joyoussong Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 730
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Originally Posted By: Allard
A chord is a couple notes played together, but sitting your butt on a random part of the keyboard does not make a chord.


1:20





Jerry Lee Lewis does it, with assorted other body parts too.
_________________________
Carol
(Started playing July 2008)



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#2018559 - 01/21/13 06:45 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
Valencia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 244
Exercise:
Once you've played and worked through that exercise, congratulations! You now know every root-position triad built out of only white keys. That means you know ALL the triads native to the key of C major. How many are there, and what are their names?


1.C major CEG
2. D minor DFA
3. E minor EGB
4. F major FAC
5. G major GBD
6. A minor ACE
7. B diminished BDF (so no major or minor..just diminished?)

To help with the major and minor, I tried to match the sounds with two songs: When the Saints Go marching in for the major, (between the first two notes of the triad), and O Canada for the first two notes of the minor chord triads. The major chords sound like Saints between notes 1 and 2 of the triad, and O Canada between notes 2 and 3. The minor chords sound like O Canada between notes 1 and 2 of the triad, and Saints between notes 2 and 3 of the triad. B diminished sounds like O Canada on both ends of the triad. (I am Canadian so this was helpful for me, but I'm not sure what would be helpful for those who don't know this anthem!).

hahaha.....love the rhapsody duet! smile

Thanks everyone...this is so helpful!

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#2018577 - 01/21/13 07:26 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: Valencia]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Valencia
...
7. B diminished BDF (so no major or minor..just diminished?)

A triad is two stacked thirds; root, third and fifth.

A third can be either major (4 semitones) or minor (3 semitones)

A fifth can be diminished (6 semitones), perfect (7 semitones) or augmented (8 semitones).

A major third and a minor third together make a perfect fifth. If the fifth is perfect we name the chord by its first third, major or minor - that implies the fifth is perfect.

If the fifth is not perfect we name the chord by its fifth. Two minor thirds make a diminished fifth and two major thirds make an augmented fifth (we haven't got to augmented chords yet).

By naming the fifth, diminished or augmented, the third is known by implication. By naming the third, major or minor, the fifth is perfect by implication.

Min 3rd + min 3rd = diminished 5th, dim chord
Min 3rd + maj 3rd = perfect 5th, min chord
Maj 3rd + min 3rd = perfect 5th, maj chord
Maj 3rd + maj 3rd = augmented 5th, aug chord

I got this in less than twenty years smile
_________________________
Richard

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#2018624 - 01/21/13 09:03 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1157
Loc: Toronto
I can't help myself from jumping in when chords are being talked about.

Spot on with the chords Valencia. If you were to come across these in a score, they'd be written as;

C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim or B°

Correct it is just diminished (but made up by stacking two minor 3rds.) A dim chord by itself is not all that common. You are more likely to come across a dim7 before just a diminished. Although they do occur.

All of the chords above that you have correctly labeled, can be made in to a 7th chord by adding a minor 3rd (3 half steps) on top.

Example, C would become C7 with the addition of a minor 3rd on top; C,E,G,Bb = C7

Yes, oddly enough I am familiar with the Saints Go Marching in and O Canada. Good observation. I see exactly what you mean.
_________________________

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#2018769 - 01/22/13 03:07 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
sinophilia Offline

Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 943
Loc: Italy
Alfred's books never say chord = triad (at least I haven't understood it that way), but just that a triad is a basic kind of chord, plus it teaches 4-note seventh chords from the very beginning (adding that in these chords the third or the fifth is often omitted).

It's not really useful to quarrel about the meaning of every word. One needs to start with clear definitions and concepts, even if this means you have to simplify and water down some of them. Less is more.
_________________________
Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
Martha Argerich... is an incarnation of the artistic metaphor of the "eternal feminine" that draws us upward. (Sergio Sablich)

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#2018776 - 01/22/13 03:33 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
In practise "dim" is often used to signify a dim7 chord or a dim7 chord is frequently played in it's stead.


I sometimes go back and take a careful look at the lead sheet of something I've been playing for a while, and discover that I'm in the habit of playing dim7 where plain dim is written. I always thought that was just me screwing up, not the composer or arranger's intention. Sometimes it's m7 instead of m, too.
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2018780 - 01/22/13 03:44 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
A little clarification on the sevenths (though we're not really there yet).

All this will be covered again when it comes up in context.

Adding a minor third to C creates C7 (C-E-G-Bb) but this is a non diatonic chord. Bb is not in the C major scale.

The primary triads are formed first layer of chords is formed using alternate notes, 1, 3 and 5 from each of the seven scale degrees. The next third layer adds sevenths.

In the C major scale the secondary seventh chords are:
C-E-G-B = C maj 7
D-F-A-C = D min 7
E-G-B-D = E min 7
F-A-C-E = F maj 7
G-B-D-F = G 7
A-C-E-G = A min 7
B-D-F-A = B min 7b5

The three minor chords Em, Dm and Am become minor sevenths (minor third + major third + minor third)

The tonic and subdominant major chords C and F become major sevenths (major third + minor third + major third)

The dominant major chord has a major third + minor third + minor third. Because this combination is unique to the dominant step we call this a dominant seventh but notate it simply by appending a 7 to the chord name.

The diminished chord becomes a half diminished chord or a minor 7 flat 5.

We'll come across all this later.

_______________________________

Edited to correct errors in nomenclature. Thank you, keystring. smile


The primary chords are the tonic, dominant and subdominant formed on the first, fourth and fifth steps of the scale. As I mentioned in an earlier post, they cover all the degrees of the scale between them. The dominant is a fifth away from tonic and the subdominant and fifth in the other direction. The move from tonic to subdominant is one of the most relaxed progressions but the dominant chord announces the imminent return to tonic.

The secondary chords are formed on the 2nd, 3rd and 6th step of the scale. They are the relative minors of the primary chords; D minor, relative minor of F, E minor, relative minor of G, and A minor, relative minor of C.

Tertiary chords are chords formed by thirds.



Edited by zrtf90 (01/22/13 10:35 AM)
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#2018788 - 01/22/13 03:55 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Also a little OT but...

Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
Sometimes it's m7 instead of m, too.
This is most likely to happen when the seventh is carried in the melody line and a simple minor can be played underneath. The combination provides the minor 7th.

If the note C occurs in a melody (in C major) it can be harmonised by any of three triads, C (C-E-G), F (F-A-C) or A minor (A-C-E). By extending into sevenths it can also be harmonised with D min 7 (D-F-A-C). Because the C occurs in the melody line a simple D minor can be played underneath.
_________________________
Richard

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#2018798 - 01/22/13 04:18 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: rocket88]
JohnSprung Offline
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Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: rocket88
Alfred books teach the "Three notes played together is a chord" thing, so for beginner students, when we reach that in the book, I always clarify the phrase: "A chord is several notes played together that sound good."


This is another place where it might be better to insert a few more words and say "...usually sound good" or "...almost always sound good".

There are chords that, isolated and examined by themselves, really massively suck. But they serve a purpose in context.

There's an example in a favorite song of mine, "I'll be Seeing You" (Sammy Fain, 1938). Bar 13, the melody note is A4, and the chord is Dm7/G. The way I play it is: G3, A3, C4, D4, F4, which is quite dissonant. It goes immediately to the melody note G4 and a G7 chord. When I was learning the song, that stuck out to me so much that I was wondering if it was a typo. When I was able to play it through at a reasonable tempo, it was obviously right. (BTW, I'm not sure if this chord is as originally written, the sheet is from Wikifonia.)

Concentrating on a single chord by itself is sort of like taking a freeze frame from a movie. Mostly you'll get good looking pictures, but sometimes you catch an actor in the middle of saying a word, and his mouth is frozen in some strange position.
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2018841 - 01/22/13 07:45 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1157
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

In the C major scale the secondary chords are:
C-E-G-B = C maj 7
D-F-A-C = D min 7
E-G-B-D = E min 7
F-A-C-E = F maj 7
G-B-D-F = G 7
A-C-E-G = A min 7
B-D-F-A = B min 7b5

...
The dominant major chord has a major third + minor third + minor third. Because this combination is unique to the dominant step we call this a dominant seventh but notate it simply by appending a 7 to the chord name.

A light just came on. This thread is filling in a lot of blanks for me. I knew about a dominant 7th., but had not put together how it differed from the others in the key (scale.) At least not in this way. Just that it was always in the 5th degree.
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung

There are chords that, isolated and examined by themselves, really massively suck. But they serve a purpose in context.

There's an example in a favorite song of mine ... The way I play it is ... quite dissonant ... stuck out to me so much that I was wondering if it was a typo. When I was able to play it through at a reasonable tempo, it was obviously right.

Concentrating on a single chord by itself is sort of like taking a freeze frame from a movie. Mostly you'll get good looking pictures, but sometimes you catch an actor in the middle of saying a word, and his mouth is frozen in some strange position.

Well put, John. Sometimes when I am working on a piece, I think "that can't be right" but when I can play it through and at a reasonable tempo, it often ends up being the greatest part of the arrangement.
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#2018861 - 01/22/13 08:42 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11561
Loc: Canada
Richard - problem with calling the seventh chords "secondary chord". In the theory books I studied, primary and secondary is reserved for the main diatonic chords used in harmony, vs. the ones that are not as crucial, as follows:

Primary: I, IV, V (C, F, G in key of C major)
Secondary: ii, iii, vi, vii dim (Dm, Em, Am, Bdim)

(The major and minor qualities being for a major key, which I'm using as default)

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#2018887 - 01/22/13 09:33 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: Valencia]
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4373
Loc: Jersey Shore
Originally Posted By: Valencia
Exercise:
Once you've played and worked through that exercise, congratulations! You now know every root-position triad built out of only white keys. That means you know ALL the triads native to the key of C major. How many are there, and what are their names?


1.C major CEG
2. D minor DFA
3. E minor EGB
4. F major FAC
5. G major GBD
6. A minor ACE
7. B diminished BDF (so no major or minor..just diminished?)




I am in the process of switching teachers and working with more of a chord based system. First assignment was what you posted, with some other related exercises, particularly:

Play the I, ii, iii, I chords and add specific exercises off of these cords.

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#2018903 - 01/22/13 09:58 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11561
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung

Concentrating on a single chord by itself is sort of like taking a freeze frame from a movie. Mostly you'll get good looking pictures, but sometimes you catch an actor in the middle of saying a word, and his mouth is frozen in some strange position.

This quote should be gilded and framed! THANK YOU!

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#2018912 - 01/22/13 10:14 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11561
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

If the note C occurs in a melody (in C major) it can be harmonised by any of three triads, C (C-E-G), F (F-A-C) or A minor (A-C-E). By extending into sevenths it can also be harmonised with D min 7 (D-F-A-C). Because the C occurs in the melody line a simple D minor can be played underneath.

The first time I encountered the term "be harmonized", I had no idea what that meant. I think this means how you can move one chord to another chord with smooth movement. So in your examples:
C and F, you could have
G=>A
E=>F
C=>C
where you are playing a C chord, then G moves up to A, E moves up to F, and C stays - voila - an F chord! And similar with other chords that share a note in the way that C and F share a note.

Is this what "to harmonize" means?

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#2018920 - 01/22/13 10:20 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: sinophilia]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11561
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: sinophilia
Alfred's books never say chord = triad (at least I haven't understood it that way), but just that a triad is a basic kind of chord, plus it teaches 4-note seventh chords from the very beginning (adding that in these chords the third or the fifth is often omitted).

Thank you for that explanation. It's hard to know without seeing the book, so it's good to have a clearer picture. (and it's easy to get the wrong one).

When we're doing theory, some terms are important, and others less so. The meaning of "chord" is important because it's a basic thing we work with in theory. When I did theory studies, for three levels the only chords we ever saw were the ones in thirds. I just assumed that "chord" means "something stacked in thirds". Then at the very last level they said "by the way, there is such a thing as a "dominant 7" and they only introduced V7's. They mentioned ultra briefly that there are other kinds of sevenths, and spent maybe a single page in a 350 page book on "other kinds of chords". So everything I thought I knew about chords was skewed until the end by dint of omission.


Edited by keystring (01/22/13 10:21 AM)

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#2018933 - 01/22/13 10:48 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: keystring]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

If the note C occurs in a melody (in C major) it can be harmonised by any of three triads, C (C-E-G), F (F-A-C) or A minor (A-C-E). By extending into sevenths it can also be harmonised with D min 7 (D-F-A-C). Because the C occurs in the melody line a simple D minor can be played underneath.

The first time I encountered the term "be harmonized", I had no idea what that meant. I think this means how you can move one chord to another chord with smooth movement. So in your examples:
C and F, you could have
G=>A
E=>F
C=>C
where you are playing a C chord, then G moves up to A, E moves up to F, and C stays - voila - an F chord! And similar with other chords that share a note in the way that C and F share a note.

Is this what "to harmonize" means?

No, that's not what I meant.

Harmonisation is providing harmony below a melody - working out the cords to a song/tune.

The melody notes on the beats usually form part of a chord. As long as that note occurs in a chord that chord can be used to harmonise the melody at that point.

So, if C is a melody note in a tune any chord with a C in it can harmonise with the melody. C major is the most likely (root of the chord C-E-G), F next (fifth of the chord F-A-C), and A minor next (third of the chord A-C-E). The other possibilities are more remote.

Sorry if I've caused confusion or wandered off topic.
_________________________
Richard

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#2018942 - 01/22/13 11:03 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3155
Loc: Maine
JohnSprung, did you have an arrangement of Lili Marlene you can link to? or a chord chart? If not, I've found a simple chord chart and can make a simple arrangement to illustrate our next set of concepts.

We're ready for a new piece, but we have several more concepts to fill in and practice with before starting on Burgmüller Opus 100. Concepts include: chord inversions, dominant seventh chords, and non-chord tones. These have all been mentioned before on this thread, but I propose that we work with them in some other pieces before getting to Burgmüller.
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#2018947 - 01/22/13 11:15 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11561
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

No, that's not what I meant.

Harmonisation is providing harmony below a melody - working out the cords to a song/tune.

The melody notes on the beats usually form part of a chord. As long as that note occurs in a chord that chord can be used to harmonise the melody at that point.

So, if C is a melody note in a tune any chord with a C in it can harmonise with the melody. C major is the most likely (root of the chord C-E-G), F next (fifth of the chord F-A-C), and A minor next (third of the chord A-C-E). The other possibilities are more remote.

Sorry if I've caused confusion or wandered off topic.

To the contrary - this is a place for learning. Thank you. smile Concepts are more important than terms, but terms are important so that we know what's being talked about. Apparently I've been doing it, but didn't have a name for it.

So in our example we are actually getting into music theory, and how music is put together. In music we have a relationship between melody and harmony (chords). The chords in music usually have an underlying pattern of I IV V I with other chords in between. We have a feeling of beginning, middle, arriving, end. The chords bring that about. But even melody alone does that.

If you have a song in C major which has a D and a C in it. You have a choice of chords containing these notes:
G - GBD, CEG, EGB etc.
C - CEG, ACE, FAC etc.
But this is the end of your song, in C major, so you would want to end it with a V-I chord. So let's look at V: It's GBD. I: It's CEG. We also see that the G and C major chords both contain G. We probably will use G-C to "harmonize" the melody notes "D & C". We also probably ended up with the melody notes D & C because of these chords, because they fit hand in glove.

So now I know this is called "harmonizing", as in "harmonize this melody".

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#2018968 - 01/22/13 11:40 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: zrtf90]
joyoussong Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 730
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

If the note C occurs in a melody (in C major) it can be harmonised by any of three triads, C (C-E-G), F (F-A-C) or A minor (A-C-E). By extending into sevenths it can also be harmonised with D min 7 (D-F-A-C). Because the C occurs in the melody line a simple D minor can be played underneath.

The first time I encountered the term "be harmonized", I had no idea what that meant. I think this means how you can move one chord to another chord with smooth movement. So in your examples:
C and F, you could have
G=>A
E=>F
C=>C
where you are playing a C chord, then G moves up to A, E moves up to F, and C stays - voila - an F chord! And similar with other chords that share a note in the way that C and F share a note.

Is this what "to harmonize" means?

No, that's not what I meant.

Harmonisation is providing harmony below a melody - working out the cords to a song/tune.

The melody notes on the beats usually form part of a chord. As long as that note occurs in a chord that chord can be used to harmonise the melody at that point.

So, if C is a melody note in a tune any chord with a C in it can harmonise with the melody. C major is the most likely (root of the chord C-E-G), F next (fifth of the chord F-A-C), and A minor next (third of the chord A-C-E). The other possibilities are more remote.

Sorry if I've caused confusion or wandered off topic.



No, you haven't caused confusion at all! I've never quite understood what "harmonize" meant either, but your explanation makes it perfectly clear. And clarifies some of the mysteries of improvisation, too. Thanks!
_________________________
Carol
(Started playing July 2008)



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#2018973 - 01/22/13 11:48 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3155
Loc: Maine
To take stock of where we are:

Participation

There are several people who expressed interest in the thread from whom we have not heard recently. I am hoping that they are all reading along and learning as we go. I am concerned though that some people may have felt overwhelmed already.

Please ask questions! Even to say "I'm so confused I don't even know how to say what I'm confused about." (I had a situation like that at work just the other day, so I sympathize.) We won't know what we need to slow down on, introduce, give more explanations, make simpler examples, etc. etc. etc., unless you ask questions. This is your thread!

Thank you to everyone who has participated by giving answers, asking questions, or even posting just to say "that was helpful."

Template

As a template for analysing pieces, I propose starting with the basic set that I proposed for Happy Birthday:

1. Overview
2. Time signature
3. Key
4. Form (this is new, and may not be relevant for a while)
5. Melody
6. Harmony
7. Playing

Features like rhythm, patterns, dynamics, articulation, phrasing, progressions, etc. can be touched on ad lib under Melody, Harmony, and/or Playing.

Richard has given us a comprehensive list of aspects we could look at. Feel free to dip into that list and grab a topic or two to talk about or ask about as we proceed, but don't feel that you must apply or learn all of those right away.

Topics

A lot of information has been touched on.

The core information that I hope people feel more comfortable with at this point are: time signature (at least for 3/4 time smile ); key of C major; some initial ideas about lyrics, phrasing, and climax; root position triads in C major.

Other topics that have been touched on which will come up again later, so it's OK if you passed them by on this first pass: chord inversions and other chord voicings, non-chord notes, minor keys and scales, roman numeral notation, chord names that include numbers and/or slashes, intervals (in particular, major and minor thirds and perfect and diminished fifths). When they come up again we may discuss them in full again, or link back to the discussion that's come up so far and then ask what more needs clarification.

Approach

rocket88 raised the issue of people being confused by seeing complex and advanced information before getting solid in the basics. We have seen some disagreement about what exactly constitutes "the basics". For the reader, there is an aspect of caveat emptor. This is an internet thread, and somewhat of a one-room schoolhouse, so you will read different ideas about how to introduce these topics and different levels of questions and answers based on the different levels of experience people bring. I hope that the advantages of the internet -- having a broad range of experience to draw from, being able to hear answers from different points of view, being able to ask questions at any time rather than waiting for a once a week lesson, being part of a learning community -- will outweigh any disadvantages.

The general consensus seems to be that we have a new thread for each piece we start on. But I would like us to stick with this thread at least until we have covered a set of basics (perhaps approximately when we have fleshed out the topics I listed above). That's so that we don't fragment too much this initial exploration of "the basics". I'm thinking that when we start Burgmüller will be the right time to start a new thread. (I think this information is really valuable, and some people are ready to absorb it already. I'm just trying to provide a guide for people for whom there's too much information overall to absorb yet.)

I'll maintain an index of all the threads in the set, and put it on each new thread. I'll also maintain an index to each of the pieces we cover in this thread. I'll also add some links to other relevant threads, for example the Music Theory 101 (or some such title) thread that we have here in ABF.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (01/22/13 11:55 AM)
_________________________
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#2018975 - 01/22/13 11:49 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3155
Loc: Maine
OK, your turn. What do you like so far about the thread? What might we do differently, to improve it?
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#2018986 - 01/22/13 12:10 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3155
Loc: Maine
Happy Birthdays 1-4

While waiting underneath the lamplight, by the barracks gate, for Lili Marlene, some more arrangements of Happy Birthday.

Happy Birthday 1: The original arrangement.

Happy Birthday 2: Broken chords.

Happy Birthday 2 is just like Happy Birthday 1 except that the chords in each measure have been broken up and the notes are played one at a time as quarter notes (2 at a time in m.7). Print this out, and in each measure, circle the left hand notes that correspond to the chords in the original arrangement. (So for example, one circle around all three bass notes in m.1, etc.). In harmonic analysis, we still name these as the same chords as we did in Happy Birthday 1 -- even though the notes aren't played at the same time. Name the chords that correspond to the circled notes (just like in Happy Birthday 1: one chord per measure, except two chords in m. 7.)

Happy Birthday 3: A different key

This arrangement is very similar to the Happy Birthday 1, except it's in a different major key. Can you see or hear how this is the same arrangement, except transposed into a different key? What key is it in? How do you know? What does the sharp in the key signature mean? Name the chords.

Happy Birthday 4: Another different key, and broken chords.

This arrangement is very similar to Happy Birthday 2, with the chords broken apart into quarter notes in the same way, except it's in a different major key. Can you see or hear how this is the same arrangement, except transposed into a different key? What key is it in? How do you know? What does the flat in the key signature mean? Name the chords. Print this out and in each measure circle the bass clef notes that correspond to the chords.

If anyone would like to upload playing these arrangements, please do. Otherwise I expect to be able to do so tonight.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (01/22/13 06:57 PM)
Edit Reason: added bold title
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#2018991 - 01/22/13 12:20 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3155
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
JohnSprung, did you have an arrangement of Lili Marlene you can link to? or a chord chart? If not, I've found a simple chord chart and can make a simple arrangement to illustrate our next set of concepts.

I read back through the thread and realized that you have the arrangement, but are having difficulties uploading it. The way I upload my scores is, I take a screenshot of them and save it as a jpeg file, and then upload the screenshot to Piano World. Then I just include that as a link in my post, (rather than embedding it as an image): this is so the page doesn't get too wide.

I can do that for you if you like; let me know.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (01/22/13 01:11 PM)
Edit Reason: add a thought
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#2019028 - 01/22/13 01:15 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
Mark... Offline
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I think showing the counting of a piece to be extremely important, as it is generally a weakness in many beginners and critically important. It is also my major weakness... smile

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#2019046 - 01/22/13 01:27 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
Allard Offline
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Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 326
Loc: Netherlands
We've had very thorough explanations about some concepts from different standpoints. There is a lot to learn here, but... yeah, it can be overwhelming. Personally, I've just ignored most of the discussions between keystring and rocket88, and several of the more advanced chord explanations that don't occur in Happy Birthday. I think it's better to discuss those when we have an example to go with the theory (a next piece).
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#2019132 - 01/22/13 03:47 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3155
Loc: Maine
Mark... (and others), can you say more about what you know about counting and where it gets weak? For example, on a single melody, do you know what to say (numbers/words/syllables) for counting it? Do you have tendencies like rushing or slowing down certain note values? Does it start to fall apart when there are different rhythms in the two hands (or multiple rhythms in one hand)? Tend to dive in and play before checking the counting? Find it hard to play and count at the same time? Other strengths and challenges?
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#2019162 - 01/22/13 04:54 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
torquenale Offline
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Registered: 12/29/12
Posts: 269
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

Participation

There are several people who expressed interest in the thread from whom we have not heard recently. I am hoping that they are all reading along and learning as we go. I am concerned though that some people may have felt overwhelmed already.



PianoStudent, so far so good.
I'm following the thread with real pleasure, even if time zones hinder me. Usually I read only when here in Italy is evening, and I have almost a whole day of discussion to catch up with, and my questions have been already answered.
I'm amazed by the effort put here, thank you to all tutors!
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#2019190 - 01/22/13 05:43 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]
JohnSprung Offline
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Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I read back through the thread and realized that you have the arrangement, but are having difficulties uploading it.


I was able to upload the PDF, which is here:


http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_LS_Analysis1.pdf

It's just that I wanted to give you the .MSCZ and .XML versions, which you could pull into MuseScore or another notation program, so you could modify them far more easily than a PDF.

One good thing about this piece is that it's in public domain, so you can use it as an example anywhere.

My first question is, What do you call the C#dim in the Roman numeral system?



Edited by JohnSprung (01/22/13 05:47 PM)
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#2019191 - 01/22/13 05:43 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: Allard]
neildradford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 148
Loc: United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Allard
We've had very thorough explanations about some concepts from different standpoints. There is a lot to learn here, but... yeah, it can be overwhelming. Personally, I've just ignored most of the discussions between keystring and rocket88, and several of the more advanced chord explanations that don't occur in Happy Birthday. I think it's better to discuss those when we have an example to go with the theory (a next piece).


Allard has just written exactly the sentiments I have. I'm enjoying the thread but I skipped a lot of the convo about chords as it was all just going over my head.

Neil.

Edit: Timing is also one of my weaknesses, like Mark said.

Edit 2: I have no problem with the timing in 'Happy Birthday', my main issue is when the left hand notes are played out of sync with right hand notes, particularly when notes are of short duration, or tied. Hope I'm making sense


Edited by neildradford (01/22/13 05:47 PM)
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#2019238 - 01/22/13 06:53 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3155
Loc: Maine
Lili Marlene

Thanks for the Lili Marlene lead sheet (new improved version here: Lili Marlene Version 2), JohnSprung. Personally, when I'm using upper- and lower-case Roman numerals, I would call C#dim in this context vii°/ii. But that's for academic analysis more than lead-sheet playing.

In another convention used by a teacher here, everything would be in upper-case, and C#dim would be #Idim. In that system, C would be I, Dm7 would be IIm7, G7 would be V7, etc.

There are surely other systems of notation as well; these are just the two that I know. Anyone else have ideas on this?

This is a different rhythm than I'm used to for the song. Is this drawn from a recording? I'm wondering if this is a particular singer's interpretation, that I haven't had the pleasure of hearing yet.

It would be helpful for us to have a version with a blank bass clef added, where people could practice writing in a bass part, or at least the block chords that go with the chord symbols. Is that something you can easily create, JohnSprung? If not, I can do it.

Some topics coming up that go with this Lili Marlene lead sheet from JohnSprung: 7 chords, intervals, roman numerals, and realizing a lead sheet. (I am faaaaaaaaar from an expert, in fact I'm barely a neophyte, at lead sheet playing, but I'll share the little I know, and others please chime in).


Edited by PianoStudent88 (01/23/13 04:16 PM)
Edit Reason: added link to new version
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