Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2016953 - 01/18/13 10:27 PM Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea
Infinity Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 102
Loc: West Orange, NJ
What is your take on keeping a 60 year old upright on an exterior facing. wall, in front of a glass pane window that does not open?[/i][i]? There is a forced air heat about 2 feet to the left. Will this cause major damage?
_________________________
Infinity
Pianist and Teacher
West Orange, NJ
www.pianolessonsnj.com

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#2016963 - 01/18/13 10:48 PM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Uh. Well, I suppose it depends.

1. How well is that exterior wall insulated?
2. How super-awesome is that window's energy efficiency?
3. Does the forced air heat blow on the piano or away from the piano?

If your answers are:

1. Not that great.
2. Not very super-awesome.
3. On the piano.

Then, no. You should't put the piano there. If in doubt, get a quality hygrometer and keep track of the humidity before you decide to move the piano there.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2016988 - 01/18/13 11:50 PM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: beethoven986]
Infinity Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 102
Loc: West Orange, NJ
I have a hygrometer! What is the ideal humidity range?
The window is double panned, but I'm concerned about the sunlight shining .down on the piano. The window is very large. About a double size.
The forced air heat would not hit the piano directly.
Thanks for your info!
_________________________
Infinity
Pianist and Teacher
West Orange, NJ
www.pianolessonsnj.com

Top
#2017005 - 01/19/13 12:22 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
40-50% is good. Direct sunlight is a no no! It will make the thing go in and out of tune and damage the finish. Get curtains.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2017058 - 01/19/13 02:55 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7425
Loc: France
Agreed, moisture level can be higher and lower, but in the high side for old pianos as 55-60 better than 40, but if hygro is stable that is what matters the most in the end, and it varies with seasons.

Direct sun on a piano =trouble

Heater = pinblock fatigue + other problems on the side heated.

External walls when nothing better, but leave a good air flow , that is mostly a problem with condensation.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2017142 - 01/19/13 09:07 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
RonTuner Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1645
Loc: Chicagoland
I've found the "exterior wall" to be a non-issue for modern homes... Close to the outside door? That tends to be more of a problem for some of my clients!

I would worry most about the sun - apart from the bleaching out of the finish, it really can cause the tuning to go all over the place!

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#2017159 - 01/19/13 10:02 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Zeno Wood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 440
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
I feel bad for the widow, but I'm not sure that she would have any impact on the piano.
_________________________
Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College

Top
#2017180 - 01/19/13 10:46 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Zeno Wood]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Zeno Wood
I feel bad for the widow, but I'm not sure that she would have any impact on the piano.


Especially if the widow is double panned.

These overly helpful spellcheckers make us all read like ESL's

Seriously, I would find somewhere else, if at all possible.

I had a client with almost identical circumstances. We tried everything. Finally, he removed a built in bookcase and put the piano there. Now it stays in tune for years at a time.


Edited by rxd (01/19/13 10:51 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2017225 - 01/19/13 12:04 PM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
I use double panning when baking a cheese cake. I have baked windows, too. A window can quickly allow a baked piano.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2017446 - 01/19/13 06:06 PM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
Better Homes and Gardens magazine once featured a cutline for a photo, which attracted some attention (but not the proofreader's): "Nothing Adds as much Charm to a Home as a few Undraped Widows."

Infinity, if you can't find a more suitable place in your home for the piano, I would suggest you either [1] move, or [2] sell the piano before it's ruined, and get a digital.

On second thought, there's not much in the way of furniture or musical instruments that is really going to benefit from being parked by an HVAC vent, in direct sunlight, and blocking a window. I think an undraped widow is the way to go.

If you have to have music, get one that can sing.


Edited by Jeff Clef (01/19/13 06:07 PM)
_________________________
Clef


Top
#2018125 - 01/21/13 01:49 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Infinity Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 102
Loc: West Orange, NJ
Thanks for the help!
This site only permits me to log on frond my Nook ( hence the typos!) . My reg. computer won't recognize my password

Thanks for all your help!
Below is the photo of the window.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/infinitypiano/?


As you can see by the pic I have quite the dilemma. This is my new home. I can't move! I can't give up the piano for sentimental value. No other wall is available (that doesn't have the same issues). If I shift left I block the heat and to the right I'm in a corner, where a couch is going. How do you feel about me blocking off the window? Black out curtains, or heat/cold out curtains? Which is worse, the sunlight or heat and cod? A blocked window or the HVAC.?


There is no AC from the vents. Should I block off the one vent? What if I cover the window with cardboard leaving only the top 12" exposed? I would like a little sun. Will the very top of the window matter? It's a studio upright.

I would like a little sun. Will the very top of the window matter? It's a studio upright.
Thanks so much!




Edited by Infinity (01/21/13 03:43 AM)
Edit Reason: additional info
_________________________
Infinity
Pianist and Teacher
West Orange, NJ
www.pianolessonsnj.com

Top
#2018176 - 01/21/13 05:52 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
I have had an informal rule all my tuning life. Whenever there are piano positioning problems, I look around and invariably the ideal place for the piano is where the most comfortable chair is.

You've heard our expertise, it's your piano, how important is the longevity of this piano to you? Would you really blank out windows and everything else rather than make a simple furniture change?


Edited by rxd (01/21/13 05:55 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2018195 - 01/21/13 07:18 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
In my case, the couch lost out.

My second brother slept on my third brother's couch for three months, before being ejected from the home. I consider that I have dodged a bullet.

If you just have to have the couch and the present house and the window and the central heating, you might consider getting rid of the piano. Or placing it in a different room. Or getting rid of some other bulky piece of furniture (an entertainment center, for example).

Some people might even consider getting the piano its own apartment.
_________________________
Clef


Top
#2018203 - 01/21/13 07:46 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
PNO40 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 229
Loc: A North Atlantic Island former...
To judge by the photo, you seem to be caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. Are there no other potential placement spots in the house/apartment?

I sympathise with your predicament as I had something similar, with only one suitable space in the house, and which necessitated taking the piano up a tight staircase.

You mention that the piano is 60 years old and is of sentimental value. That suggests that it is not exactly a spring chicken and that it is more of an heirloom than a musical instrument. If that is the case, then the question takes on a different complexion as the piano is probably already seriously worn and weathered (unless it has been restored or reconditioned at some stage).

Also, if you are not planning on playing it very much, then the question is whether it will deteriorate much more due its placement. While the heating will play havoc with the tuning and internal structure, the sun will work on the finish (and internals too via its heating effect), so perhaps you can choose the least worst option depending on what you actually want the piano for, playing or storing.

Best of luck with the decision/dilemma.

P.

Top
#2018250 - 01/21/13 09:37 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7425
Loc: France
You probably can lock the air inlay and install one on another place (unless it is the cooling device ?)

Older pianos where builmd at times where the air was not as dry as today in the houses.

Hence the wood was not dried as much as for today befor being processed.

SOI it is better to keep them with adequate moisture than nthe opposite (even if modern instruments are better holding now low levels of dryness) That is the cause why older technicians, when I was young, state that pianos must be ideally kept in 50-55-65% air moisture (I have seen even more)

I thought it was due to the noticeable difference between digital hygrometers (often showing more dyness than the hair wire hygrometer)

BTW You could face the piano to the inside of the room, but it is often not excellent for acoustics, may be with a wooden panel (covered or not with adborbing material) behind the soundboard to reflect a bit the tone ?

What do think acoustician(s) of that ?

The air flow of the heater can be reflected


Edited by Kamin (01/21/13 09:38 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2018279 - 01/21/13 10:22 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Jerry Cohen, RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 80
Loc: New Jersey
Infinity,
Based on your picture, your situation is hardly the worst I have seen.
If you blocked the heat vent, are there enough other vents in the room to provide adequate (maybe not perfect) heat? If so, then put the piano in front of the blocked vent.

If not, then put a solid barrier in the window (plywood?) up to the height of the piano. You are only trying to block the sunlight from hitting the piano. You wont see the barrier because the piano blocks it. Some drapes would reduce the sunlight that strikes the top of the piano, but allows some light from that window.

BTW, if you block the vent, do a good job of stuffing some insulation in the duct behind the cover. The switch on the cover is not good enough.

Hope this helps.
_________________________
Jerry Cohen, RPT
Piano Craftsman offering, concert tuning, voicing, regulating, rebuilding.
Serving Northern New Jersey area.

Top
#2018291 - 01/21/13 10:35 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Infinity Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 102
Loc: West Orange, NJ
Well, my piano gets played every day all day by my students and by myself after that. It' s more than just an heirlom. It' s my piano!
The other wall is worse, the widow being even larger and close to the door.
This is a tiny bungalo and these is no other room.
I had a near complete restoration done in 1990 and would like to protect my investment, he only piano I own (which I use to make my living) , and the only memory of my late Father.
_________________________
Infinity
Pianist and Teacher
West Orange, NJ
www.pianolessonsnj.com

Top
#2018311 - 01/21/13 11:00 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 459
Loc: Oregon Coast
Originally Posted By: Infinity
What if I cover the window with cardboard leaving only the top 12" exposed? I would like a little sun. Will the very top of the window matter? It's a studio upright.I would like a little sun. Will the very top of the window matter? It's a studio upright. Thanks so much!


I'd agree that blocking the window would work. Block the sunlight off the back of the piano, and do place it a couple inches from the wall as well. It looks like the best of poor options! I'd be more concerned by pumping the air from the vents directly into the piano, which would kill it in a few seasons. Yes, you could leave the upper part of the window open. The important thing is to keep the sunlight off the back of the piano and keep it from contact with the wall and window. Leave a little breathing space behind the piano, so that the circulation is not cut-off; a few inches will suffice.

I had a customer who called me back to retune a piano, and I found that they had moved it since the tuning, and placed it directly onto a heater vent. The poor thing had shifted nearly a quarter step in less than a week. I urged them to move the piano, or block the vent, but.....(sigh). The customer is not ALWAYS right!
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

Top
#2018324 - 01/21/13 11:17 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I would place the piano in front of the unaltered window and apply a thin radiant heat barrier to its top and exposed back. There are numerous types of these thin barriers available typically with a foil like materaial on the exposed side and a backing of thin bubble wrap or cardboard/kraft paper/insulation on the other. Small standoffs should separate the barrier from the piano to leave a gap of air and to allow the sound to come out the back. Put a deflector on the nearby air vent to divert the air flow away from the piano. I use these barriers, often combined with a small amount of rock wool insulation to protect piano backs from electric heating located on lower walls behind them. It still requires the piano to sit 4-5" away from the wall/heater but it does work well at protecting the piano while still allowing the heating to work in the home.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

Top
#2018381 - 01/21/13 12:29 PM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Silly question probably, as we can't see the rest of the room, but have you considered putting it with its back against the wooden worktop we can see in the foreground? It'll be away from the sun and the air vent.
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

Top
#2018389 - 01/21/13 12:45 PM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: rxd]
Pianos & Pianos Mexico Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/01/08
Posts: 40
Loc: Mexico
Originally Posted By: rxd
I have had an informal rule all my tuning life. Whenever there are piano positioning problems, I look around and invariably the ideal place for the piano is where the most comfortable chair is.


I have heard many times that the piano is the 3th or 4ht most important investment at home (1st the house, 2nd the car, 3th the piano)


Edited by Pianos & Pianos Mexico (01/21/13 12:46 PM)
_________________________
Sergio L. Ruiz Jones
Piano Tech
Pianos & Pianos
Afinacion y restauracion de pianos
www.pianosandpianos.com
Sergio.ruiz@pianosandpianos.com
Mazatlán, Mexico.

Top
#2019345 - 01/22/13 10:12 PM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Pianos & Pianos Mexico]
Infinity Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 102
Loc: West Orange, NJ
It's the OP again,
I've updated my flickr account to show pics of the entire living room.



This shows all the walls of the room.
It looks like I'll be doing this!
Covering up the bottom half of the window wioth cardboard, behind the pleatewwd shade. So the cardboard won't be visible from the inside, only from the outside of thehouse. Which I can live with.
2.) Closing the forced ait heating vent (there is no AC) and also covering it with cardboard. You won't see the carxboard since the oiano will block it.
I know these cardboard fixes sound awfully cheap of me, but I'm laying out all I have on the house! No money left!

So please tell me if either of these are a bad idea, or simply not enough of a fix. I'm not as worried about esthetics as I am about keepoing my beloved piano safe and in tune and not dried up.
Also, if oyu have any additional or better ideas, please tell me! Otherwise, it's going to be this cardboard fix-up.

I want to thank all of you for all the womnderful ideas and info you gave me. I am truly touched that so many of you were concerned enough to offer me your expertise.

Please excuse the typos. I'm having a glitch on this site and I can't move the cursor back to correct.
Check out the situation here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/infinitypiano/
_________________________
Infinity
Pianist and Teacher
West Orange, NJ
www.pianolessonsnj.com

Top
#2019434 - 01/23/13 02:52 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Infinity
Well, my piano gets played every day all day by my students and by myself after that. It' s more than just an heirlom. It' s my piano!
The other wall is worse, the widow being even larger and close to the door.
This is a tiny bungalo and these is no other room.
I had a near complete restoration done in 1990 and would like to protect my investment, he only piano I own (which I use to make my living) , and the only memory of my late Father.



This piano means a lot to you. You have many suggestions, some from practical experience, some purely theoretical and untried.

Stand back and take a real good look around. Ask yourself, What would your father have done.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2019466 - 01/23/13 05:58 AM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1961
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
If you're not expecting umpteens of dining guests every night, i.e. if your dining furniture won't extend too far into the lounge area, I would consider to shift the piano left of the window, after having properly blocked the higher air vent closer to the window (and possibly even the other one at floor level).

Alternately, if the wiring/cable allows, change the piano and the entertainment center around.

Personally, I'd not want my piano in the area with the two windows. I do like sunlight in my home, but not on my piano - not even indirectly.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#2019875 - 01/23/13 07:27 PM Re: Placing piano on exterior wall near widow and forced air hea [Re: Infinity]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England


I would seriously put it here above all other options. Entertainment centre be damned, if the cables don't reach, get longer cables!
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
147 registered (aesop, *windowlicker*, accordeur, 36251, ajames, 46 invisible), 1406 Guests and 23 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75897 Members
42 Forums
156844 Topics
2304614 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Hello to Everyone and to PianoStudent88
by Gene Williams
08/21/14 08:23 PM
Is this Piano Purchase Tax deductible?
by master88er
08/21/14 08:12 PM
Some tuning clients are just so...
by Eric Gloo
08/21/14 07:54 PM
Brands of soundboard
by PhilipInChina
08/21/14 06:23 PM
Ear training - what is it?
by Scordatura
08/21/14 05:05 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission