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#2015508 - 01/16/13 01:55 PM How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165?
jian1zh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/15/13
Posts: 23
new to this forum, and look forward to buying myself a grand piano.

Brand new Baldwin bp165, serial number dg37844, seller says it's brand new and asks for $9500(CAD), what do you guys think? I liked it's sound, though not as good as yamaha's, touching is pretty well, although again, not as good as yamaha.

Btw, shall I get this Baldwin, or a simillar ritmuller (seen people praise it on this forum)?

Kawai seems to be selling some cool piano with carbon fibre stuff, how do you guys rate carbon-fibre Kawai? I am a technical person and like this new space-age material. If I can stretch my budget a little bit more, I would like to have Kawai gm30.

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#2015530 - 01/16/13 02:48 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Hi - Welcome to Piano World!

There seems to be some descrepencies in model numbers. Are you referring to a Baldwin BD165? Is this a purchase from a dealer or private seller? Baldwin is in a state of flux, however, and the products are not held in the same esteem as the vintage instruments. I would suggest that you look at other brands.

With the Kawai, I think you mean the GE-30. It is a good piano and does have the Millenium (composite) action. It is more expensive than the Baldwin, however. The Kawais have superior actions and quite trouble free.

The best thing you can do is play as many pianos as you can, in all price ranges. That way you can find what is best for you within your budget. May I suggest that you check out the "A&D Piano Buyer" at the link found on the left side of this page. The online version is free to use, or it can be ordered in print copy. It is the "bible" for those in search of a piano.

Good Luck with your search.
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2015558 - 01/16/13 03:23 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
jian1zh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/15/13
Posts: 23
thanks for your reply.

I think it's a BD165, didn't have time to find out the model number, only serial. It's from a piano store who sells used piano and some brand new piano. Is $9500 a good price ? I've played it, it was actually better than the Kawai gm-10k I've tried on.

Ge-30 is a little bit out of my price range, my question is how much better is it's carbon-fibre action in comparison with woods?

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#2015828 - 01/16/13 10:50 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
musicpassion Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 1384
Loc: California, USA
It sounds to me like you want a Yamaha. I would suggest don't get the Baldwin, but go for a Yamaha.

Re the Ritmuller... don't buy a piano because someone else likes it. Buy a piano you like. And you might like the Rimuller... certainly worth trying.
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#2015832 - 01/16/13 10:55 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
musicpassion Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 1384
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: jian1zh
Kawai seems to be selling some cool piano with carbon fibre stuff, how do you guys rate carbon-fibre Kawai? I am a technical person and like this new space-age material. If I can stretch my budget a little bit more, I would like to have Kawai gm30.


I enjoy Kawai - and I own one. Mine is older than the carbon fiber, and an upright. However I have played the Millenium Falcon, I mean the Millenium III action at the dealership. I thinks it's a quality action, but I didn't like it. I couldn't put my finger on why.
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#2015924 - 01/17/13 04:28 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: musicpassion]
jian1zh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/15/13
Posts: 23
yamaha is totally out of my price range, despite I like its action.

The Baldwin is not too bad IMHO, it's just a matter of price...if it's a good price, I will take it.

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#2016467 - 01/18/13 02:14 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
musicpassion Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 1384
Loc: California, USA
Ok. I didn't look up the exchange rate.

However, I'm surprised Yamaha and Baldwin prices are that far apart.


Edited by musicpassion (01/18/13 02:15 AM)
Edit Reason: accuracy
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#2016484 - 01/18/13 03:03 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: musicpassion]
jian1zh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/15/13
Posts: 23
is baldwin gp165 $9500(CAD) a good deal?

I like Yamaha's action, not sure if it's just me... the action seems to be better than those Steinways I've played on, especially the new c series.

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#2016488 - 01/18/13 03:09 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
musicpassion Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 1384
Loc: California, USA
It's not just you. Many people like Yamaha action, myself included.

About the price... sorry, but I don't know.
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#2017162 - 01/19/13 10:08 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
Steven Y. A. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 291
Loc: Toronto
I think richter also likes Yamaha action, and Horowitz's Steinway has been retrofit with Yamaha action
Haven't heard the Baldwin model but I tried an old Baldwin upright it sounds great. Some sonic character as their concert grand.
U may want to check out the Bolet ballade no.3 (chopin) recording on YouTube.
It's recorded with a Baldwin. To my ears it sounds better than his Steinway recording.

Where do you live? I live in Toronto I'm also on a piano hunt. If I see something interesting I'll let u know.

Steven
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PLEYEL P124

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#2017219 - 01/19/13 11:56 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Tell us more about the action in one of Horowitz's Steinways. This was done during his lifetime? Which of his pianos?
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2017815 - 01/20/13 12:45 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
Steven Y. A. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 291
Loc: Toronto
I just played a Baldwin gp165, year 2013 Made in China. Very good upper registers. Dealer asks for $14000 CAD so i guess $9500 is a very good deal. Larry Fine's book suggest a maximum price of $11000. Consider pianos are more expensive in Canada so i would say $9500 is a very good price.

I can not confirm the source of Horowitz's piano. It may be just a rumor.
but here is a link for discussion on his piano:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1546518/2.html


Edited by Steven Y. A. (01/20/13 12:53 PM)
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#2017890 - 01/20/13 03:10 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
HalfStep Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/11
Posts: 222
Loc: Boston, MA
I just bought a new BP 152 (delivery tomorrow!) I took lots of advice from PW. The most important, go with the sound and feel of a piano. To that end, I looked at a Kawai GE-30 (I think that's the model) and the Baldwin BP 152. I negotiated down 10% and had a trade up value for about 1700. In the end, the bottom line payment was $9365.00. I am ecstatic!

Good luck!

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#2018743 - 01/22/13 01:54 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
jian1zh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/15/13
Posts: 23
I think I've changed my mind.... The more I play Yamaha the more I love its touch, but heck, in Canada (toronto) Yamaha is definitely over priced.

I can't decide if I should bite my teeth go for a yamaha or settle for that Baldwin.

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#2018750 - 01/22/13 02:27 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: Steven Y. A.]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3461
Originally Posted By: Steven Y. A.
I think richter also likes Yamaha action


Richter was a Steinway Artist for a long time before he defected (to Yamaha), as several artists did, due to well-documented quality issues at Steinway & Sons during the 1960s-1980s.

Originally Posted By: Steven Y. A.
and Horowitz's Steinway has been retrofit with Yamaha action


This is absolute nonsense. For starters, Horowitz was a dyed-in-the-wool Steinway loyalist. Secondly, even if it were possible to retrofit Yamaha parts into a Steinway (which isn't the case), Steinway owns the piano; why on earth would they put one of their competitor's parts in it?! Especially since the company militantly opposes the use of non-Steinway replacement parts in used/rebuilt Steinways.



Originally Posted By: Steven Y. A.
Haven't heard the Baldwin model but I tried an old Baldwin upright it sounds great. Some sonic character as their concert grand.
U may want to check out the Bolet ballade no.3 (chopin) recording on YouTube. It's recorded with a Baldwin. To my ears it sounds better than his Steinway recording.


You cannot compare a Bolet recording with Baldwin's Chinese-built instruments. He used an American-built Baldwin Artist Grand, which is a completely different design than the Chinese instruments.

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#2018755 - 01/22/13 02:37 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3461
The Baldwin Bp 165 is built in China. I'm pretty familiar with these instruments and they tend to need quite a bit of work before they can be considered good instruments, and the extent of this work is not something that would be done by a dealer. There are circumstances where this probably wouldn't matter a whole lot, but you yourself seem to prefer the Yamaha. If I were in your situation, I'd go with my gut.
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
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#2026657 - 02/04/13 02:46 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
Schubertslieder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
I am a Baldwin fan. I appreciate the high quality sound the piano produces. Most Baldwin pianos I played in colleges were big grand pianos made in US. I have not played the piano you mentioned. I believe the model you are referring to, bp 165, is not made in US but made in China. However, if you truly like the sound, then that piano is for you, IMO. If you like the piano and the price, you should consider it. I am a believer in doing what feels right when it comes to pianos.
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#2026777 - 02/04/13 09:15 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: beethoven986]
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10612
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
The Baldwin Bp 165 is built in China. I'm pretty familiar with these instruments and they tend to need quite a bit of work before they can be considered good instruments, and the extent of this work is not something that would be done by a dealer. There are circumstances where this probably wouldn't matter a whole lot, but you yourself seem to prefer the Yamaha. If I were in your situation, I'd go with my gut.


Why would you say the the work is not something that would be done by a dealer? We have 4 RPTs that do work for us.
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www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2413850 - 04/25/15 12:40 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
shirlkirsten Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1451
Loc: Berkeley, California
I know this is old.. but i favored the Kawai GE-20--a well made piano.. IN JAPAN not Indonesia.. I had to sell when I moved to Berkeley. My tech, Israel Stein, also lauded the GE-20. You have to find one, probably used since they are no longer importing them.
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#2428454 - 06/03/15 08:38 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
Enrico Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 75
Loc: NJ
Just wanted to clear up some confusion of this post. The Baldwin for $9500 with serial number dgxxxxx was a dongbei factory piano with the Baldwin name on it. It would have sold for $10,000 ish. This factory has been closed for several years. The current model is a completely different Baldwin scale and has been reviewed very well from all resources. Baldwin has gotten their act together. They are competing at a very high level and have been compared favorably to Steinway and Yamaha. I just wanted to clarify because the current model 165 is much more money and a far superior piano to the dg serial number pianos. I see many teachers when asked to help a student literally just google the model and find something outdated And incorrect as this post and advise their students based on a post like this. Please always look at the date of a post and model and serial numbers too.
I hope this post Is helpful.
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Worldwide Piano
www.worldwidepianostores.com
732-777-7381

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#2428456 - 06/03/15 08:40 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
Enrico Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 75
Loc: NJ
See this review of current models.
http://www.pianobuyer.com/spring14/50.html
_________________________
Rick Aquino
Worldwide Piano
www.worldwidepianostores.com
732-777-7381

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#2428485 - 06/03/15 09:49 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: Enrico]
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Registered: 10/11/12
Posts: 1024
Loc: Northern Virgina
Originally Posted By Enrico
I hope this post Is helpful.

This is an odd post...

There are many recent posts that laud the quality of the newest Baldwins. Commenting in a revived older thread that described the then poorer quality models, to say they are now better, is strange. But if your goal is to undo all the "damage" done in outdated threads, then you've got a lot of work to do.

In fact, here's an interesting comment in which a dealer advises someone not to buy a Baldwin because he'd "heard horror stories from technicians about Baldwin's lack of customer support." That might be a good place to start.

Just my 2 cents... wink
_________________________
1950 Baldwin M
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#2428567 - 06/04/15 05:48 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: Retsacnal]
Rich Galassini Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9720
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted By Retsacnal
Originally Posted By Enrico
I hope this post Is helpful.

This is an odd post...


I think there is a difference in quality in the Baldwin pianos over the past few years. They are improving. However, I would be willing to bet that the explanation for the stark contrast in these posts is simply attributable to whether or not a dealer is carrying that product.
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#2428613 - 06/04/15 09:13 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: Rich Galassini]
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Registered: 10/11/12
Posts: 1024
Loc: Northern Virgina
Originally Posted By Rich Galassini
Originally Posted By Retsacnal
Originally Posted By Enrico
I hope this post Is helpful.

This is an odd post...


I think there is a difference in quality in the Baldwin pianos over the past few years. They are improving. However, I would be willing to bet that the explanation for the stark contrast in these posts is simply attributable to whether or not a dealer is carrying that product.

Wouldn't it be cruel irony if his customers wouldn't consider a given make because of the very disinformation he'd previously put out online when he preferred not to work the with the same manufacturer?
_________________________
1950 Baldwin M
Never ask a barber if you need a haircut

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#2428619 - 06/04/15 09:32 AM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
Enrico Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 75
Loc: NJ
That information was correct in 2010. Once again check post dates. Baldwin was In flux then and anyone who carried them would have told you the same. I understand you are not in the industry and can't comprehend what happens in this bizzare world. But let's focus on getting out correct information not trying to create "clever" irony that really is nothing more than disinformation. I carry virtually every brand available and have no agenda to push one of my brands over another. I saw confusion from a customer who found this post and figured I would help the community by clearing up a problem with this post. This is why I try not to go on chat rooms. Everyone suspects the worst of you and I see it all the time on these boards. Just take the information as information. The op was comparing a dongbei piano to a new Baldwin piano. These are different pianos at different price points. This has nothing to do with a hallet Davis post from 2010. In 2010 the hallet Davis and Baldwin were the same piano. Not anymore. And neither are made in dongbei. Let's all be less caddy and try to just give good factual information to the readers of this forum?
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Worldwide Piano
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#2428668 - 06/04/15 12:10 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: Enrico]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By Enrico
Just wanted to clear up some confusion of this post. The Baldwin for $9500 with serial number dgxxxxx was a dongbei factory piano with the Baldwin name on it. It would have sold for $10,000 ish. This factory has been closed for several years. The current model is a completely different Baldwin scale and has been reviewed very well from all resources. Baldwin has gotten their act together. They are competing at a very high level and have been compared favorably to Steinway and Yamaha. I just wanted to clarify because the current model 165 is much more money and a far superior piano to the dg serial number pianos. I see many teachers when asked to help a student literally just google the model and find something outdated And incorrect as this post and advise their students based on a post like this. Please always look at the date of a post and model and serial numbers too.
I hope this post Is helpful.


Other than the obvious point that this 'factual update' contains a fair bit of opinion, my only quibble is with the statement that "Baldwin has gotten their act together".

Gibson bought the old DongBei plant with the intention of making their grand pianos there. They certainly did not foresee the dispute with the Chinese government that would force them to turn instead to contract manufacturing. In contacting with Terence Ng and Parsons Music to make their grand pianos for them, they may have realized a higher level of product than what they could make initially at DongBei, but if they did wind up with a superior product, a more accurate characterization of the situation than "getting their act together" would be dumb luck: the bad luck of buying a factory that has not been a useful asset followed by the good luck of contracting with a maker who could do a better job than they could do themselves.

So, while you state correctly that the previous BP165 was a cheaper Dongbei piano with the Baldwin name on it, it would be equally correct to say that the current Baldwin BP165 is a more expensive Parsons piano with a Baldwin name on it. In terms of sourcing, this makes the current Balwin grand no different from a Brodmann.

The long-range issue (to me) is leverage. Baldwin has a grand old name and is doing well on the China domestic market. Parsons, while still largely unknown in the US market, is a powerhouse in China and is the manufacturer of the Baldwin grands. Brodmann has had its up and downs from being totally dependent on contract manufacturing. Baldwin controls its own vertical production and certainly has more marketing currency than a shell company like Brodmann. Buw what happens if Parsons decides to pursue its interests openly in the West under its Yangtze River brand or some other brand name concoction more palatable in the West? Will this affect its willingness to be a pipeline for other 'makers'?

http://www.musictrades.com/profile17.html
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#2428681 - 06/04/15 12:56 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: jian1zh]
Markarian Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/06/12
Posts: 879
Loc: Seattle Area
This is why I wish more Chinese pianos were openly marketed as such, like Pearl River and Hailun.
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#2428729 - 06/04/15 03:58 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: turandot]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 931
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By turandot


Gibson bought the old DongBei plant with the intention of making their grand pianos there. They certainly did not foresee the dispute with the Chinese government that would force them to turn instead to contract manufacturing. In contacting with Terence Ng and Parsons Music to make their grand pianos for them, they may have realized a higher level of product than what they could make initially at DongBei, but if they did wind up with a superior product, a more accurate characterization of the situation than "getting their act together" would be dumb luck: the bad luck of buying a factory that has not been a useful asset followed by the good luck of contracting with a maker who could do a better job than they could do themselves.

So, while you state correctly that the previous BP165 was a cheaper Dongbei piano with the Baldwin name on it, it would be equally correct to say that the current Baldwin BP165 is a more expensive Parsons piano with a Baldwin name on it. In terms of sourcing, this makes the current Balwin grand no different from a Brodmann.

The long-range issue (to me) is leverage. Baldwin has a grand old name and is doing well on the China domestic market. Parsons, while still largely unknown in the US market, is a powerhouse in China and is the manufacturer of the Baldwin grands..... Buw what happens if Parsons decides to pursue its interests openly in the West under its Yangtze River brand or some other brand name concoction more palatable in the West? Will this affect its willingness to be a pipeline for other 'makers'?



Okay, so I've posted this same response adnauseum but feel it is again warranted here.

DISCLOSURE: I carry both Brodmann and Baldwin products, so I am certainly biased.

Baldwin, as Tur correctly stated, does NOT contract out their upright production, but rather builds them in their own plant outside of Hong Kong. These pianos are built exactly to the specifications of their predecessors of the same model, and some new models have been introduced as well, completely designed by Baldwin.

The grand pianos, made by Parsons, are NOT stencil Parsons pianos. They ARE Baldwin scales, owned by Baldwin, and components in these pianos are completely under Baldwin control. In fact, an AMERICAN Baldwin engineer is present in China and quality control is completely AMERICAN employees, and EVERY Baldwin grand piano is personally inspected by an AMERICAN Baldwin employee. If you compare similar sized Brodmann or Yangtze River pianos side-by-side (as I have many times) to the Baldwin pianos coming from Parsons, there are easily distinguishable differences in tone and touch. They are not "Parsons pianos with a Baldwin name on it." Again, a similar situation exists at Foxconn in China, who builds the Iphone as well as cell phones for other brands. I know, this has been repeated over and over again by those of us selling the new Baldwin product, but it IS the truth and we would be remiss if we didn't mention it .

I do think it's appropriate to give Gibson their fair share of praise for refusing to accept Dongbei quality, and cease production, choosing instead to build their own factory for uprights (and controlling their own destiny), and for designing and engineering new grand pianos that are Baldwin through and through. The fact that the production is off shores, IMHO, shouldn't negate any brand prestige that Baldwin has.

If you disagree shocked , ask yourself "is a B1 a Yamaha and a K2 a Kawai?"
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#2428746 - 06/04/15 05:38 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: master88er]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: torrance, CA
Master,

No need to get lathered up over this. Whether the newer BP165 is a better piano than the earlier BP165 is not an issue in my post. My point is that it's misleading to say that the piano Baldwin built at its own factory is a DongBei, while the piano which it is having built at someone else's factory by someone else's workforce is a Baldwin.

"Offshore" is also not an issue in my post. AFter all, we're comparing one Chinese piano product with another. Such comparisons are probably the future of the piano industry.
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#2428769 - 06/04/15 06:55 PM Re: How much can you negotiate for Baldwin bp165? [Re: turandot]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 931
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By turandot
it's misleading to say that the piano Baldwin built at its own factory is a DongBei, while the piano which it is having built at someone else's factory by someone else's workforce is a Baldwin.


Tur,

That is exactly where I respectfully disagree. Are you saying that the Iphone and Ipad are not Apple because they're built by Foxconn? Or that the Yamaha T1 was not a Yamaha because it was manufactured by Pearl River, or Boston is not a Steinway product because it's manufactured by Kawai? Or (uh oh) Cunningham is not a Cunningham because it's built by Hailun smirk ? OEM manufacturing is nothing new to any industry, but that doesn't mean the product produced is not a genuine product of the designer, creator and/or guarantor of the product.

MY point is whome that the pianos built by Parsons for Baldwin are genuine Baldwin pianos in every respect, from design to components to quality and sound, and the piano warranties are from Baldwin, not Parsons. Whether they are better or not than those produced by Baldwin in Arkansas or Cincinatti is subject to personal opinion.

Originally Posted By turandot
AFter all, we're comparing one Chinese piano product with another.


You mean like the Samsung S5 to the Apple Iphone 6? grin
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