Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
109 registered (Anne'sson, accordeur, A Guy, angga888, Anne H, 26 invisible), 1333 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#2017252 - 01/19/13 01:13 PM What is this way to play scales called?
BeccaBb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 905
Loc: Thunder Bay, On Canada
My teacher gave me homework to learn how to play my scales differently. She couldn't remember what its called.

I'm only doing this in one octave with C scale:

The pattern is:

play up together,
apart,
back together,
up together,
down together,
apart,
back together,
and down together.

I really like learning this just want to know what it's called! (formula, pattern etc.)
_________________________
Becca
Began: 01-12-11


Floundering and Lost
Roland RD300NX

Top
(ads P/S)

Petrof Pianos

#2017267 - 01/19/13 01:42 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
neildradford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 148
Loc: United Kingdom
You mean like similar motion scales followed by contrary motion scales etc, but not stopping between each type?

Neil.

Edit: No idea if there is a proper name for the whole thing but it sounds like similar motion and contrary motion joined together.


Edited by neildradford (01/19/13 01:44 PM)
_________________________
Venables & Son Custom 133 Upright Acoustic Piano
Yamaha DGX-640 Digital Piano
Started learning: October 2011
Started lessons: January 2012
YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/user/neildradford

Top
#2017271 - 01/19/13 01:46 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
It's called the Grand Scale.

Up 2 Octaves
Contrary Motion 2 Octaves
Reverse Contrary Motion 2 Octaves
Up 2 Octaves
Down 4 Octaves
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


Top
#2017273 - 01/19/13 01:51 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
neildradford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 148
Loc: United Kingdom
Ooooooooo its got a proper name. So much to learn..........

Where would you start? Around the middle?

Neil.
_________________________
Venables & Son Custom 133 Upright Acoustic Piano
Yamaha DGX-640 Digital Piano
Started learning: October 2011
Started lessons: January 2012
YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/user/neildradford

Top
#2017275 - 01/19/13 01:53 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
BeccaBb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 905
Loc: Thunder Bay, On Canada
Yep you start where you normally would. I'm sure next week I get to go to two octaves. smile

Thanks Jazzwee! Neil if you haven't tried it, you gotta. It's lot's of fun! smile

I love you guys. Someone always has an answer. smile
_________________________
Becca
Began: 01-12-11


Floundering and Lost
Roland RD300NX

Top
#2017279 - 01/19/13 01:56 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
neildradford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 148
Loc: United Kingdom
I think I'll do that actually Becca, it does sound like fun, watch my fingers fall over themselves!
_________________________
Venables & Son Custom 133 Upright Acoustic Piano
Yamaha DGX-640 Digital Piano
Started learning: October 2011
Started lessons: January 2012
YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/user/neildradford

Top
#2017283 - 01/19/13 02:05 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
Andy Platt Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2424
Loc: Virginia, USA
My teacher just calls them contrary scales. Of course only part of it is contrary. I've stopped doing regular arpeggios and just do these now. Surprising tough - particularly when your hands are at opposite ends of the keyboard.
_________________________
  • Schumann - Ende vom Lied, Opus 12.8
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

Kawai K3

Top
#2017291 - 01/19/13 02:16 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
neildradford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 148
Loc: United Kingdom
Do you mean you've stopped doing regular scales? Arpeggios are something else aren't they?
I can imagine it is pretty tough if your hands are at either end of the keyboard, must try this tonight.
_________________________
Venables & Son Custom 133 Upright Acoustic Piano
Yamaha DGX-640 Digital Piano
Started learning: October 2011
Started lessons: January 2012
YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/user/neildradford

Top
#2017300 - 01/19/13 02:24 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
BeccaBb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 905
Loc: Thunder Bay, On Canada
I think you might be pleasantly surprised Neil! I'm a beginner and doing it in c scale for one octave is very simple! (other scales, well I'm betting not so much lol.)
_________________________
Becca
Began: 01-12-11


Floundering and Lost
Roland RD300NX

Top
#2017301 - 01/19/13 02:25 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
I think it starts two octaves below middle C, the two hands an octave apart and then the contrary motion starts when the LH reaches middle C. And then on the way back you continue up 2 octaves up.

So basically the full scale is a 4 octave practice. It is quite difficult to do well. Even after many years of doing this I can still improve.

BTW this is an example of where you have to move your bottom to play this well. If you sit without moving your body at middle D then you will be all twisted up.
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


Top
#2017303 - 01/19/13 02:26 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
neildradford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 148
Loc: United Kingdom
Wohooo, just did a 'Grand Scale' two octaves (exactly as jazwee wrote above) and it was A LOT of fun, like you said Becca. I know it's silly, but that was quite exciting haha.

Thanks guys!
_________________________
Venables & Son Custom 133 Upright Acoustic Piano
Yamaha DGX-640 Digital Piano
Started learning: October 2011
Started lessons: January 2012
YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/user/neildradford

Top
#2017304 - 01/19/13 02:28 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: BeccaBb
I think you might be pleasantly surprised Neil! I'm a beginner and doing it in c scale for one octave is very simple! (other scales, well I'm betting not so much lol.)


BeccaBb, I see your teacher is introducing you to a subset of the Grand Scale then.

I only do this in C scale (the full Grand Scale). Doesn't work easily otherwise with contrary motion.
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


Top
#2017308 - 01/19/13 02:30 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: neildradford]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: neildradford
Wohooo, just did a 'Grand Scale' two octaves (exactly as jazwee wrote above) and it was A LOT of fun, like you said Becca. I know it's silly, but that was quite exciting haha.

Thanks guys!


Well I think it would be 4 octaves to be called a 'Grand Scale' smile In case there's some lingo police around...
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


Top
#2017330 - 01/19/13 02:52 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
BeccaBb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 905
Loc: Thunder Bay, On Canada
I figured mine was a simplified version. smile After I learn that I think I'll beg to try the full one. I have a pile of of other scales to learn too (speaking of I better get my butt in gear!)

Later gators!
_________________________
Becca
Began: 01-12-11


Floundering and Lost
Roland RD300NX

Top
#2017331 - 01/19/13 02:54 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
KeysAngler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 260
Loc: The Fabulous Florida Keys
I'm playing the Grand Scale in C

Another variation my teacher has me doing is only playing the C, E and G notes on the scale ... it's a little more difficult than doing the full octave of notes ...

I've noticed that if I look at my right hand and think about my left while doing contrary portion I can make fewer mistakes when my left hand is out of sight

Top
#2017337 - 01/19/13 03:04 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3206
Loc: Maine
jazzwee, I play the Grand Scale with my body centered at middle D, and I don't experience problems.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#2017351 - 01/19/13 03:24 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
torquenale Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/12
Posts: 368
Loc: Italy
I sometimes play the Grand Scale in C (I just learnt the name) and I find it difficult but fun.
In other keys the problem is that my contrary motion scales are awful, I should practice them more but I really hate them. I don't remember having learnt them as a child, so they are quite new and difficult for me.


Edited by torquenale (01/19/13 03:24 PM)
_________________________



Top
#2017396 - 01/19/13 04:33 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: PianoStudent88]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
jazzwee, I play the Grand Scale with my body centered at middle D, and I don't experience problems.


By the time you get to the 4th octave, your fingers will be at an angle to the keys. Now as you play it faster and faster it will be a lot of gyration.

I still can't play the grand scale at 150bpm (16ths) -- which I can do easily with the RH only. I fail at the top of the 4th octave. And as I examined the problem it's the LH that is severely angled. So the only solution is to move the body from side to side.

I was taught to improve the angle of the fingers by moving my upper body (which as a consequence causes the lower body to shift).
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


Top
#2017398 - 01/19/13 04:37 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
So here's another hand independence exercise I do in addition to the Grand Scale. You alter the LH note rhythm vs. RH.

For example you play a scale at a LH:RH ratio of 1:2 (2 notes on the RH for every 1 on the LH). Then you do it 1:3. Then 1:4.

I do this mostly with the C scale.
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


Top
#2017406 - 01/19/13 04:56 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3206
Loc: Maine
If I play a four octave C scale, for example, starting with RH on middle C and LH an octave lower, I do lean my body, and I lean towards one side of my bottom and the other side unweights from the branch. But when you said you had to move your bottom to play these, I took you to mean that you actually moved your bottom from one spot to another on the bench.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#2017430 - 01/19/13 05:46 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: jazzwee]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1399
Loc: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
For example you play a scale at a LH:RH ratio of 1:2 (2 notes on the RH for every 1 on the LH). Then you do it 1:3. Then 1:4.

You can also play scales 2-against-3 and 3-against-4 for practicing polyrhythms.
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

Top
#2017464 - 01/19/13 06:48 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
pizza4058 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/19/13
Posts: 3
Loc: Colorado, USA
Originally Posted By: BeccaBb
My teacher gave me homework to learn how to play my scales differently. She couldn't remember what its called.

I'm only doing this in one octave with C scale:

The pattern is:

play up together,
apart,
back together,
up together,
down together,
apart,
back together,
and down together.

I really like learning this just want to know what it's called! (formula, pattern etc.)



Hi everyone, my FIRST post. Back in the day, my mom pushed me to take piano lessons. And I did for almost 9 yrs. Jump ahead 50+ years and I had a serious itch to start playing again. Bought me a spinet, 42 yr-old piano. Fingers a little stiff, ha!

So question; will someone explain to me this pattern in more detail? I'd like to try it but I don't understand/know where to start. I'd appreciate any input.
_________________________
Carl J.

Top
#2017531 - 01/19/13 09:16 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Here's a video. Sorry for the poor quality from the Computer camera. But doing this reminds me how hard it is to do evenly and perfectly synchronized with both hands.

_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


Top
#2017565 - 01/19/13 10:32 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: pizza4058]
zillybug Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/11
Posts: 136
Loc: USA
hi Carl,
My teacher also recently started me on the grand scale.
Here is the pattern he uses-
start down low and go up 2 octaves
out 2 octaves
back in 2 octaves
up 2 more octaves
down 2 octaves
out 2 octaves
in 2 octaves
down 2 octaves and you are back where you started.

I started with C major. I have now done F, b flat, E flat, and A flat major scales this way. I thought it would be more difficult as the scales had more flats but I actually found E flat and A flat easier than F and B flat. I usually practice the contrary part of it alone first. It is difficult when your hands are way apart at difficult ends of the piano. My teacher is talking about doing the scales in 3rds, 6ths and 10ths next.
I'm not sure how to do that yet.

Judy

Top
#2017569 - 01/19/13 10:43 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: neildradford]
Andy Platt Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2424
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: neildradford
Do you mean you've stopped doing regular scales? Arpeggios are something else aren't they?
I can imagine it is pretty tough if your hands are at either end of the keyboard, must try this tonight.


No, I do some arpeggios of different patterns from a book by Peskanov (The Russian Technical Regimen for the Piano, book 2); contrary arpeggios similar to the grand scale pattern and then scales in either thirds or sixths (either the right hand starts a third above the root of the scale or the left hand starts a sixth down from the root of a scale). Occasionally I'll replace those with chromatic or the grand scale.

We're slowly working up from C in a chromatic fashion - right now I'm on F#.
_________________________
  • Schumann - Ende vom Lied, Opus 12.8
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

Kawai K3

Top
#2017604 - 01/20/13 12:06 AM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: jazzwee]
pizza4058 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/19/13
Posts: 3
Loc: Colorado, USA
Nice! Thanks for posting the video. Hearing the sound of the notes really helped! It'll be awhile b4 my efforts sound like yours. But I like a challenge!
_________________________
Carl J.

Top
#2017605 - 01/20/13 12:12 AM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: zillybug]
pizza4058 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/19/13
Posts: 3
Loc: Colorado, USA
Thank you. I now get the gist of the pattern. Sunday will be a more exciting day of practice for me. For now I'll stick to the original pattern on the grand scale.
_________________________
Carl J.

Top
#2017625 - 01/20/13 01:29 AM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
I hope you don't start at my tempo! smile Start very, very slow. At half that speed perhaps or even less and concentrate on evenness and accuracy and synching both hands.
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


Top
#2017811 - 01/20/13 12:43 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
stumbler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 300
Loc: Toronto
The RCM curriculum calls it "Formula Pattern Scale".
Its part of their exam technical requirements.
Depending on grade level it is either 2 octaves (half the compass of what Jazzwee described), or four octaves.
_________________________
Roland RD-700NX


Top
#2018045 - 01/20/13 09:09 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: packa]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: packa
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
For example you play a scale at a LH:RH ratio of 1:2 (2 notes on the RH for every 1 on the LH). Then you do it 1:3. Then 1:4.

You can also play scales 2-against-3 and 3-against-4 for practicing polyrhythms.


Although this sounds good in theory, there will be dissonance and the pattern doesn't lend itself to repetitions and up and down motion. At least the way I did it.

I tend to practice these types of rhythms with some LH ostinato pattern instead of scales. But that's just me.



_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


Top
#2021083 - 01/25/13 11:53 AM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
Kymber Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1348
Loc: MA
_________________________
“The doubters said, "Man cannot fly," The doers said, "Maybe, but we'll try,"
And finally soared in the morning glow while non-believers watched from below.”
― Bruce Lee

Top
#2021103 - 01/25/13 12:36 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: jazzwee]
Arghhh Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 1178
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: packa
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
For example you play a scale at a LH:RH ratio of 1:2 (2 notes on the RH for every 1 on the LH). Then you do it 1:3. Then 1:4.

You can also play scales 2-against-3 and 3-against-4 for practicing polyrhythms.


Although this sounds good in theory, there will be dissonance and the pattern doesn't lend itself to repetitions and up and down motion. At least the way I did it.

I tend to practice these types of rhythms with some LH ostinato pattern instead of scales. But that's just me.





In the polyrhythm scales, sure there will be dissonance, but that's ok. The 2:3 rhythm works in scales if the hand doing the 3 goes 3 octaves up and down, and the other hand goes two octaves up and down. I found it took a few days for my brain to wrap around this new way of doing scales.

Top
#2021111 - 01/25/13 01:15 PM Re: What is this way to play scales called? [Re: BeccaBb]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Maybe because I'm a jazz guy, I don't like training my ears to learn nonsensical patterns. I'd like to hear real music and train my ears to recognize it.

So if I were intent on doing this with 2:3, maybe start at D for a D dorian run.

(meaning play the C scale starting at D instead of C...for those unfamiliar with modes).
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Bottom of hammer hitting top of damper on upright
by JoeThePro
Yesterday at 10:09 PM
Getting better
by Kekewak
Yesterday at 07:35 PM
Pearl River vs. Samick
by Zekk
Yesterday at 03:41 PM
Kawai vs. Yamaha: what to choose
by SeeSharp
Yesterday at 02:19 PM
Disklavier Pro Alternatives? C5X Value for money?
by bryan77
Yesterday at 01:15 PM
Forum Stats
77391 Members
42 Forums
160047 Topics
2350326 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission