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#1838581 - 02/04/12 03:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Scep that sounds great. I really like it. Really nice feel. The rubato is fine, but I did think once or twice you kind of went into time but stopped yourself. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't go into time for a brief section in the middle. You may be able to rack up the intensity a bit more by doing that. But then again it sounds fabulous as it is, it doesn't sound as though strict time is missing.
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#1838608 - 02/04/12 04:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
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Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I've transcribed and played lots of blues. So I presume you're talking about the phrase endings where I cut the eighth note? I don't think I'm doing that.

When I listen to Wynton, he plays shorter phrases at this tempo so there's more opportunity to hear those cut eighths.

What do you think?


That might be part of it. Cutting phrases on the "and" is pretty common. But there's also some syncopated accents that I think are missing from the middle of your lines. Or maybe more specifically, where you place accents and how hard you do it. To me it feels like it needs more variety and more hard edges at times. Again... not really sure how to explain.

I do agree with beeboss and scep that there is no blues in your playing. I'd like to hear where your blues is at right now. Why don't you record an easy blues like Blue Monk or C Jam. Maybe we can get a better idea of where you could go from hearing what's going on there. I definitely think there's more to the blues than just a blues scale and various cliche licks. The rhythm is important too, and might be what's missing for you.

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#1838616 - 02/04/12 04:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Scott Coletta Offline
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Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
...So should I abandon rubato? Is there something else I need to consider if I'm going to make this more listenable? Is strict time always more preferable?
Here's the link:
http://www.box.com/s/b0irshn4o5tjnbg390ud


I think this sounds really cool. Great tune too. But if I heard an entire record like this I think I'd miss having some stuff with a groove. What you're doing definitely works really well though and sounds very sincere. And there is time, it's just stretched and compressed... like classical music. And that's not easy to do well. Sounds good Scep. smile

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#1838619 - 02/04/12 04:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
I had a first lesson with Bill Cunliffe today. Bill is more of a traditional player and I thought it was a good idea to broaden my horizons. Now for someone raised on Wynton Kelly and Horace Silver, etc. I thought I was in good hands on swing issues.

Anyway, I played for Bill, and his first comment was that I sounded pretty good and that no major issues stick out though we can work on vocabulary (he's very traditional on vocabulary).

So I asked him what he thought of my swing. Now I was playing solo piano so no iPhone app cymbals. He said, I swing just fine and I play in time. He told me to forget about that and move on to other things. He said I had no swing problems.

LOL -- this was so funny after all the criticism I got for swing here. Must be a matter of what I play too. It's probably the rhythm section that screws me up.

He said that for playing piano a total of 7 years, he was amazed at what I was able to accomplish. Very nice guy and humble for such a world-class player.

He gave me this book he wrote, "Jazz Inventions for Keyboard" (50 Etudes) so we'll be working on that. Hopefully, this will in some of the holes that are missing but his general evaluation was good since it showed my base was good. Whew!

What a tough journey! So much ups and downs.
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#1838621 - 02/04/12 05:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


LOL -- this was so funny after all the criticism I got for swing here. Must be a matter of what I play too. It's probably the rhythm section that screws me up.




Yeah a bad rhythm section can make anything sound awful. And your phone is about the worst I have ever heard ;-)

Ultimately you have to trust your own opinion, that is what you rely upon when you actually have to play.
Get a bunch of jazz pros together and they probably going to have plenty of disagreements. I know I do with my jazz playing friends.

Bill Cunliffe sounds good, I hope your lessons go well.
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#1838622 - 02/04/12 05:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
...and I have a request from all of you, please.

I've been working on playing solo piano for a while now, and I've seemed to have gravitated towards this style of playing wherein I'm not concerned with strict time keeping. My preference for some reason is to play things rubato.

I really would like honest feedback on whether you find this type of playing appealing or just kind of odd, odious, or whatever. So should I abandon rubato? Is there something else I need to consider if I'm going to make this more listenable? Is strict time always more preferable?
Here's the link:
http://www.box.com/s/b0irshn4o5tjnbg390ud


That was beautiful. thumb This is a very nice sounding style and would be appealing to a general audience. I didn't mind the rubato at all. It seemed pretty much in time in a big picture sense, like Classical.

However, my only caution is that this kind of playing is very exposed so unneveness in arpeggios and such are very apparent. That's the bad part. On the good side, sometimes you'll insert an extra beat in a bar and that's not so noticeable in the rubato style except for the likes of us here (cause we're always counting in our heads).

I say, keep doing this. This style will probably get more gigs (and you get to keep all the money) than a trio. Post some more of this too. It's good for getting ideas on other approaches for playing solo piano.
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#1838624 - 02/04/12 05:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


LOL -- this was so funny after all the criticism I got for swing here. Must be a matter of what I play too. It's probably the rhythm section that screws me up.




Yeah a bad rhythm section can make anything sound awful. And your phone is about the worst I have ever heard ;-)

Ultimately you have to trust your own opinion, that is what you rely upon when you actually have to play.
Get a bunch of jazz pros together and they probably going to have plenty of disagreements. I know I do with my jazz playing friends.

Bill Cunliffe sounds good, I hope your lessons go well.


Just to be clear, I don't disagree with the swing and groove problems of what I posted here. But under pressure playing in front of Bill, I swung well and he didn't have an issue with it (solo piano of course). So no red flags lit up for him. And I did warn him in advance about possible swing issues.

Maybe my problem is consistency.
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#1838627 - 02/04/12 05:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta

I'd like to hear where your blues is at right now. Why don't you record an easy blues like Blue Monk or C Jam.


I have no problem with that. I'll give it a shot. If I find some backing that I can record to.

My live blues recordings are not good. So I'll give it a fresh shot.
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#1838628 - 02/04/12 05:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
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Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Anyway, I played for Bill, and his first comment was that I sounded pretty good and that no major issues stick out though we can work on vocabulary (he's very traditional on vocabulary).

So I asked him what he thought of my swing. Now I was playing solo piano so no iPhone app cymbals. He said, I swing just fine and I play in time. He told me to forget about that and move on to other things. He said I had no swing problems.

LOL -- this was so funny after all the criticism I got for swing here. Must be a matter of what I play too. It's probably the rhythm section that screws me up.

He said that for playing piano a total of 7 years, he was amazed at what I was able to accomplish. Very nice guy and humble for such a world-class player.



When I did performance juries in grad school I'd have to play for the "panel" of jazz faculty, about 7 or 8 people. They would then write out comments on a judging sheet to give to me after the performance. I was always puzzled by how some of them would say something like "really nice swing... good time" and others would say "you're rushing in your bass lines, needs to swing more". Everybody has a different perception of things. Guess that's why it's art.

Although, being a teacher myself, I can say that I often withhold honest commentary about things my students do. I do this for several reasons. Sometimes it's because there are other more important things that they need to deal with and I don't want to overwhelm them. Also, I sometimes just feel that a student is doing the best that they can at the time and I don't want to discourage them. So I guess you never know what to believe when someone comments on your playing. Like beeboss said... it's ultimately all on you.

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#1838641 - 02/04/12 06:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
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Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Hey Jazzwee, here's a blues bass line in Bb I just recorded. See what you can do over that:

http://www.box.com/s/6gpstr1xv9ac2oxpj4nm

I figured I'd have a go at playing over it and I must admit, I still don't play the blues as well as I would like to. Besides some funky notes here and there, my time is just not grooving hard enough and I get out of the pocket sometimes. This is why the blues is so fundamental I think. Seemingly simple, but actually quite difficult. Here's my attempt, without comping. I actually didn't even notice I wasn't comping until about half way through. laugh

http://www.box.com/s/q6ik7fidu7yv05ijbj5p

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#1838647 - 02/04/12 06:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: beeboss
it doesn't sound as though strict time is missing.


Thanks beeboss! Ya, the idea about rubato, I believe, is that time isn't really lost or neglected, but just manipulated and there still is an overall tempo that is adhered to, and I am working towards achieving that. I'm sure I'm not there yet, but I'm glad I'm not too far off the mark.

I'm also not against the idea of going into time for a bit either. I'm just not quite sure of how to do that without sounding like I've somehow just realized that I 'should' be keeping time, unless I then maintained time for the rest of the piece.
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#1838649 - 02/04/12 06:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
...So should I abandon rubato? Is there something else I need to consider if I'm going to make this more listenable? Is strict time always more preferable?
Here's the link:
http://www.box.com/s/b0irshn4o5tjnbg390ud


I think this sounds really cool. Great tune too. But if I heard an entire record like this I think I'd miss having some stuff with a groove. What you're doing definitely works really well though and sounds very sincere. And there is time, it's just stretched and compressed... like classical music. And that's not easy to do well. Sounds good Scep. smile

Thanks Scott! You're right though, I'm not sure I could listen to more than a few (or maybe just one) tune like this without being driven a bit mad--especially if it is someone else playing it. In a way, I think rubato is a bit of an intimate experience, and if you don't really share the feel of the time the same way the performer does it can be uncomfortable, but with strict tempo, most people can appreciate the common ground of playing in a groove.
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#1838654 - 02/04/12 06:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Here's Bb Blues I just did now.

Scott - thanks for passing the backing. I didn't see that before I recorded. I had an Aeborsold track so that's what I used here.

(Sorry I forgot to turn off the piano channel)

Bb Blues
http://www.box.com/s/k6hgb9dvidelemqpa2b9

Regarding what Bill C. said, however I may have recorded here, he was judging me on what I did in front of him in solo piano. So I don't disagree that what I posted here didn't inspire me to swing. Particularly since I'm not good at slow tempos. I can feel swing better at 150 and up. So heard me at a faster tempo and I'm pretty confident about my articulation there.

He wasn't holding back because we were discussing specifically what I need to work on (building a task list). We did start on REALLY SLOW playing like 60bpm on Solar. So that really exposed my weak areas. He honed down on developing more vocabulary and of course more technique. He didn't critique my phrasing either.

We even talked about rhythm sections and how a bad drummer can impact my swinging (ergo what Beeboss said about my phone).

Having said all this, realize that Bill C., although from traditional roots, still probably has West Coast written all over him and we west coast guys swing differently than you east coast/midwest guys. smile




Edited by jazzwee (02/04/12 06:46 PM)
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#1838656 - 02/04/12 06:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Is strict time always more preferable?
Here's the link:
http://www.box.com/s/b0irshn4o5tjnbg390ud

... It seemed pretty much in time in a big picture sense, like Classical.
[/quote]
Yes, that was my intent. I'm glad it came across.
Originally Posted By: jw

However, my only caution is that this kind of playing is very exposed so unneveness in arpeggios and such are very apparent. That's the bad part. On the good side, sometimes you'll insert an extra beat in a bar and that's not so noticeable in the rubato style except for the likes of us here (cause we're always counting in our heads).

Do you mean rubato playing is exposed, or solo piano?
Originally Posted By: jw

I say, keep doing this. This style will probably get more gigs (and you get to keep all the money) than a trio.

More than none? That's the current number we're booked for.
Originally Posted By: jw

Post some more of this too. It's good for getting ideas on other approaches for playing solo piano.

will do. It's harder these days though because my cat jumps on my head (literally) when I try to play the piano at night now. I've got a bunch of recordings that kind of end abruptly with this. The first thing you hear is her jumping onto the top of the piano, then...

http://www.box.com/s/23jkepnj7zp9jsx8qgcs
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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1838662 - 02/04/12 07:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
...my time is just not grooving hard enough and I get out of the pocket sometimes.


Now you make me feel bad smile I was so out of the pocket so many times in comparison.

Sounds pretty good to me. thumb And you still remember your blues licks. I don't.

I can do better on playing in the pocket. My concentration needs to improve. Without playing solidly in time, then of course it stops swinging anyway.
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#1838665 - 02/04/12 07:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

Do you mean rubato playing is exposed, or solo piano?


I think both. I don't know. It seemed like rubato drew attention to it. It may also affect your evenness if you don't have a fixed beat. Just because it's rubato doesn't change the need for evenness.

In general I felt a pulse with occasional pauses. So you still play like a jazz player in that sense. The cocktail types stretch a rubato so it's not really the same as true rubato (rob time, pay it back). You mostly pay it back. Cocktail stylist just keep slowing down to do the flourishes and never pay back. That's the kind of rubato I don't particularly like.

Yours I liked a lot.
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#1838673 - 02/04/12 07:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Here's Bb Blues I just did now.


Bb Blues
http://www.box.com/s/k6hgb9dvidelemqpa2b9



Not bad jazzwee. I think you're just not hitting hard enough. Try digging into the groove more and punch your accents out to the point that it seems overboard. I've found that sometimes if we do what seems like too much, it ends up being just right. That same kind of punch in other tunes will help the swing feel. Personally, I'm still pretty timid alot of the time. My teacher in grad school really pushed me to not hold back though, and it's been coming out more and more. Just don't hold back... go for it!

And a few blues licks wouldn't hurt either. smile

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#1838729 - 02/04/12 10:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Here's Bb Blues I just did now.


Bb Blues
http://www.box.com/s/k6hgb9dvidelemqpa2b9



Not bad jazzwee. I think you're just not hitting hard enough. Try digging into the groove more and punch your accents out to the point that it seems overboard. I've found that sometimes if we do what seems like too much, it ends up being just right. That same kind of punch in other tunes will help the swing feel. Personally, I'm still pretty timid alot of the time. My teacher in grad school really pushed me to not hold back though, and it's been coming out more and more. Just don't hold back... go for it!

And a few blues licks wouldn't hurt either. smile


Thanks Scott. I'm glad there's something I'm doing a little ok smile

Now this is funny because it just goes to show I have to filter all your comments. I used to accent very hard and Knotty once said I accent too hard smile And maybe because listening to KJ, he doesn't accent so hard. But Wynton Kelly accents very hard.

So anyway, yes I can do that (accent harder -- like I used to do). If I can just stay in the pocket at the same time I will be good.

I sat down on the piano and actually started recalling some of the licks. If I just put my mind to it some of it will come back. In fact, some of it came back after listening to you.

When I play blues though, I actually want to play more intervallic and outside like Pilc (like use Alt Subs), similar to Chick's Matrix. But I kept it pretty traditional for now. I'd like to practice it the other way too. Just haven't had the time.
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#1838897 - 02/05/12 09:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I know this is not ballad tempo but I was working on "come rain or shine" and I feel better about this than my other outputs. I feel like I was more deliberate about my playing. I felt like I was starting to get into it around 1:50m(right before bass runs out) and I really like what I was playing as I was playing them(except the fact that I was starting to rush a lot). I think the culprit was this spontaneous idea of trying Bill Evan's style block chord stuff. It took me somewhere totally unexpected. I felt like I wasn't sure what I wanted to do up until that point.

http://soundcloud.com/jason-hayashi/come-rain-or-shine

Btw I noticed this when I was half-conscious or half asleep sometimes I hear random music and solos and they all sound really great. This is just a speculation but it could be that all that music is already there in subconsciously and it's just matter of connecting to that. Like others have said, it's important to have that kind of complete focus in your playing, but that can easily turn into "trying too-hard"

scepticalforumguy

I think you sounded great on the little waltz. I remember having discussion early about how the flow is more important than actually playing in time. Even if you play in time, it can feel clunky if it's not flowing. But at the same time when I hear Bill Evans do solo stuff, his music flow is so seamless that it doesn't really bother me when he is rushing a lot.

jazzwee&scott coletta

I tend to take people's comment with grain of salt. After all if you don't feel good about something, no amount of people telling you it sound great is going to change that. As far as playing is concerned.. I think it's matter of finding how you do it to get the sound you want. For me it took a long time to find a sense of time and swing feel that works for me. It's far from perfect, but it's gotten better and at least it's tolerable to me.

Also, please be careful and not use more tension. in order to get that heavy sound. I made that mistake and that's part of the reason I had tendonitis problem.


Edited by etcetra (02/05/12 10:02 AM)

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#1838926 - 02/05/12 10:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
This is recording of a class session I posted a long time ago of my teacher and I playing ATTYA. The backing track is iRealB -- i.e. "my phone". So obviously he's making it work, even when the feel may not be right in the perception of several of you. Interesting...

ATTYA Laidback
http://www.box.com/shared/ncz1fp5xnb

I'm just thinking of my rhythm section in the band that's not so swinging. Here he's really busy with the LH so maybe he creates his own feel. I think he told me once to lay a solid charleston feel on the left hand and that can force everyone into a groove if the rhythm section is weak.

In the above recording, it sounds like he generates his own swing feel from his own sound, without being controlled by the backing track.

Scott, this was the one we timed before. I sampled the peaks and the hits on the "swing beat" was unbelievably precise. It's played straight but the timing drives it. He doesn't waver at all on the swing beat but may drag the upbeat.

I told my teacher about what I did here -- that I studied the waveforms and discovered how precise the swing beat was. Didn't surprise him. Like everyone else who teaches swing, they don't really explain this. It's taught as a "feel". But part of it has a certain precision and someone like me who can't necessarily focus on the being in pocket 100% may waver and that weakens my swing I think.
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#1838946 - 02/05/12 11:13 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
jazzwwee

thanks for posting the recording. I really like what he did in 0:55-0:58 ish. I think harmonically he is playing Bbmin7 Emaj6th Ab7sus Ab7susb9, I think rhythmically he is doing something like group of 4 triplets followed by 5 tripets(I've heard James Williams do something similar. Let me know what you guys think about that passage, I could be wrong.

I think you have a point in that your teacher do have a solid technique to be able to play very even 8th notes constantly, but I do notice him accenting/attacking certain notes to give that rhythmic edge. I guess it's more precise to say play with good deliberate articulation than just playing harder.

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#1839005 - 02/05/12 01:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: etcetra]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: etcetra
I know this is not ballad tempo but I was working on "come rain or shine" and I feel better about this than my other outputs. I feel like I was more deliberate about my playing. I felt like I was starting to get into it around 1:50m(right before bass runs out) and I really like what I was playing as I was playing them(except the fact that I was starting to rush a lot). I think the culprit was this spontaneous idea of trying Bill Evan's style block chord stuff. It took me somewhere totally unexpected. I felt like I wasn't sure what I wanted to do up until that point.

http://soundcloud.com/jason-hayashi/come-rain-or-shine

Btw I noticed this when I was half-conscious or half asleep sometimes I hear random music and solos and they all sound really great. This is just a speculation but it could be that all that music is already there in subconsciously and it's just matter of connecting to that. Like others have said, it's important to have that kind of complete focus in your playing, but that can easily turn into "trying too-hard"


Sounds good etcetera. As a listener I can't know how deliberate your ideas were, but they definitely sound cohesive and in control for the most part.

I know what you mean about hearing stuff and needing to connect to that. When I'm playing, instead of trying too hard, I've been trying to think of it more as censoring. I try to not play what I'm not sure about. Or not play if I can't execute something in time. So while I may hear something as I'm playing that I'd like to play... if I don't know it or can't get to it, I let it go. Of course I fail at this a lot, but I think it's helping.

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#1839009 - 02/05/12 01:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
This is recording of a class session I posted a long time ago of my teacher and I playing ATTYA. The backing track is iRealB -- i.e. "my phone". So obviously he's making it work, even when the feel may not be right in the perception of several of you. Interesting...

ATTYA Laidback
http://www.box.com/shared/ncz1fp5xnb


I think really great players can swing over anything. I remember how my teacher in undergrad used to play with the guys in my combo, who were no where near swinging, but he still sounded awesome. It's all about your own internal sense of time, not locking into something out there. Of course, when everyone in the group is locking into the same internal source in each of them, that's when it's really good.

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#1839088 - 02/05/12 04:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: etcetra]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: etcetra
I know this is not ballad tempo but I was working on "come rain or shine" and I feel better about this than my other outputs. I feel like I was more deliberate about my playing. I felt like I was starting to get into it around 1:50m(right before bass runs out) and I really like what I was playing as I was playing them....

http://soundcloud.com/jason-hayashi/come-rain-or-shine

Ya, you sound good on this track. The bonus is when YOU like your own playing too. I've found that I rarely like what I play, but on those occasions that I do, it gives me enough impetus to keep going in the direction where I get more encouraged.
Originally Posted By: etc

Btw I noticed this when I was half-conscious or half asleep sometimes I hear random music and solos and they all sound really great. This is just a speculation but it could be that all that music is already there in subconsciously and it's just matter of connecting to that. Like others have said, it's important to have that kind of complete focus in your playing, but that can easily turn into "trying too-hard"

At times I have these great, great, incredibly musical, original and sublime ideas when I'm falling asleep too. I think maybe I should just arrange my gigs so I'm playing at 4am and everything will sound wonderful. wink
Although I've never rushed from bed to implement the ideas, I too wonder if they are really actually that amazing, or if they are just a subconscious 'wish' come true, and that if somehow we were to be able to transcribe what we heard, that the output would be pretty normal, or even bizarre.
Originally Posted By: etc

scepticalforumguy

I think you sounded great on the little waltz. I remember having discussion early about how the flow is more important than actually playing in time. Even if you play in time, it can feel clunky if it's not flowing.

Thanks Etcetra! I think that I've naturally been a clunky player unless I abandon the groove, but am now learning, or relearning, what it feels like to play in that groove.
Beeboss once mentioned that playing in the groove is probably the hardest thing to learn, and I tend to agree.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1839210 - 02/05/12 08:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


Beeboss once mentioned that playing in the groove is probably the hardest thing to learn, and I tend to agree.




Hardest for me. I think everybody has their own hardest bit. For very many people I think it is the hearing aspect that causes most trouble. I do know people who have a better sense of groove than me who have never ever worked hard at music, so I am not sure exactly where it comes from. Maybe they heard salsa when they were in the womb or something.

Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy



At times I have these great, great, incredibly musical, original and sublime ideas when I'm falling asleep too. I think maybe I should just arrange my gigs so I'm playing at 4am and everything will sound wonderful.
Although I've never rushed from bed to implement the ideas, I too wonder if they are really actually that amazing, or if they are just a subconscious 'wish' come true, and that if somehow we were to be able to transcribe what we heard, that the output would be pretty normal, or even bizarre.



That is a very familiar feeling. I can conjure it up anytime I am in a quiet place, it sounds like a big band in my brain, or an orchestra. I can hear the whole thing but I can't quite get a grip on what the individual parts are doing. It seems to just go constantly through my brain and I can tap into it when I want to, or just choose to ignore it.
The more I do this the more my musical imagination is expanded, and since I really started starting focussing on it I am never short of musical ideas. Still it is very hard to get them out of the brain and onto paper or through the fingers though.
Believe it though, those ideas ARE that amazing. If you can learn to access them and focus on them sufficiently and express them well enough you can be on the very highest level.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1839237 - 02/05/12 10:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


Beeboss once mentioned that playing in the groove is probably the hardest thing to learn, and I tend to agree.




Hardest for me. I think everybody has their own hardest bit. For very many people I think it is the hearing aspect that causes most trouble. I do know people who have a better sense of groove than me who have never ever worked hard at music, so I am not sure exactly where it comes from. Maybe they heard salsa when they were in the womb or something.


I agree too and I'm so far behind in this area. I guess there's an advantage if you're trained to be rhythmic from youth, as it is in some cultures.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1839239 - 02/05/12 10:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: etcetra]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: etcetra
jazzwwee

thanks for posting the recording. I really like what he did in 0:55-0:58 ish. I think harmonically he is playing Bbmin7 Emaj6th Ab7sus Ab7susb9, I think rhythmically he is doing something like group of 4 triplets followed by 5 tripets(I've heard James Williams do something similar. Let me know what you guys think about that passage, I could be wrong.

I think you have a point in that your teacher do have a solid technique to be able to play very even 8th notes constantly, but I do notice him accenting/attacking certain notes to give that rhythmic edge. I guess it's more precise to say play with good deliberate articulation than just playing harder.


Something that I was explaining long ago (maybe a year ago) in this thread was that I analyzed snippets of the waveform to see where his eighths landed. And the interesting finding was the the eighths that correspond with the 'let' in trip-e-let landed EXACTLY at the right spot each time. The 1st eighth is dragged to give it that straight feel but it's the swing eighth that doesn't waver.

I did confirm that with my teacher and they feel that pulse exactly. So those with a good swing know to precisely time that 2nd eighth in a pair. So it seems that even if the swing is ala Oscar Peterson or Brad Mehldau, if you can accurately hit your eighth on the 'let', you're golden.

Anyway, that's the 'factual' discovery that I had made. Other than that, swing is always described as a 'feel'.

Of course, easier said than done. smile
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1839351 - 02/06/12 04:25 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Hardest for me. I think everybody has their own hardest bit. For very many people I think it is the hearing aspect that causes most trouble. I do know people who have a better sense of groove than me who have never ever worked hard at music, so I am not sure exactly where it comes from. Maybe they heard salsa when they were in the womb or something.

The "Secret" to great Salsa, Mambo, Latin, etc playing is dancing. Ie learning the dances.
There's no way you can learn that music by just listening. Sheik Yerbouti.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#1839508 - 02/06/12 11:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Hardest for me. I think everybody has their own hardest bit. For very many people I think it is the hearing aspect that causes most trouble. I do know people who have a better sense of groove than me who have never ever worked hard at music, so I am not sure exactly where it comes from. Maybe they heard salsa when they were in the womb or something.

The "Secret" to great Salsa, Mambo, Latin, etc playing is dancing. Ie learning the dances.
There's no way you can learn that music by just listening. Sheik Yerbouti.

Funny guy.
But as for the rhythms, I can attest to the fact that its not the learning of the rhythms when you're young, but the constant exposure to them. My wife is from South America, and in her country 5/8 time is considered the normal pulse for dancing. When you hear it played you'd swear it's 3/4 time, because it has such a great pulse to it. I'm also certain that almost no one from that country knows the rhythm has 5 beats to each bar since they really only hear it as 'long one, short two'.
Unfortunately music has become more dummied down everywhere, so once the kids reach teenage years they start hearing more 4/4 pulse, and start replacing their aural heritage with that from somewhere else.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1839590 - 02/06/12 02:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Something that I was explaining long ago (maybe a year ago) in this thread was that I analyzed snippets of the waveform to see where his eighths landed. And the interesting finding was the the eighths that correspond with the 'let' in trip-e-let landed EXACTLY at the right spot each time. The 1st eighth is dragged to give it that straight feel but it's the swing eighth that doesn't waver.


So where do actual triplets, as opposed to swung eighth notes, line up then? It seems that they'd have to be exact divisions of thirds to have the last third of the triplet line up with what you're saying, but I'm not sure this is true. Maybe the two don't mix?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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